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    Wrong Count & "Call"

    I was dealing today, the blinds were 600-1200. A raise to 4k comes back around to the Big Blind who pushes all in. I do a count and tell the original raiser its 10600 more roughly half his remaining stack, he thinks about it for a while asks me to spread the pot and eventually says "Call".

    I then realise it is actually 15600 more, nearly 3/4 of the guys remaining stack. I call the floor to get a ruling.

    If I called you as a floor man what ruling would you make?

    Regards
    Ian

    #2
    Tricky one
    But probably make him call the extra 5k

    Comment


      #3
      The player is acting on information given to him by the dealer. The player called for 10600. I would rule that the call must stand, but it stands for this amount and no more.

      Comment


        #4
        If the cards aren't exposed yet you could correct the count and ask him for his decision again.

        If they are then it probably has to be a call for the full amount.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Morihei View Post
          The player is acting on information given to him by the dealer. The player called for 10600. I would rule that the call must stand, but it stands for this amount and no more.
          Not sure you can penalise the all in guy like this. He has bet 15600 not 10600.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Wolves View Post
            Not sure you can penalise the all in guy like this. He has bet 15600 not 10600.
            Good point. It would require the wisdom of Solomon to make a decision here that would satisfy both players and vindicate the dealer as well. Cut the baby in half?

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Morihei View Post
              Good point. It would require the wisdom of Solomon to make a decision here that would satisfy both players and vindicate the dealer as well. Cut the baby in half?
              Why should we try to vindicate the dealer. he made a mistake, actually not just a mistake a pretty big fuck up. Clearly his fault and I don't see how or why he should get off.

              I'd rule that the 15k stands, and the other player gets to make his decision again, so as to be the decision he would of faced.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                Why should we try to vindicate the dealer. he made a mistake, actually not just a mistake a pretty big fuck up. Clearly his fault and I don't see how or why he should get off.

                I'd rule that the 15k stands, and the other player gets to make his decision again, so as to be the decision he would of faced.
                I'm not saying the dealer deserves vindication, only that Solomon would've found a plan to keep everyone happy.

                The problem with allowing the calling player to make a new decision based on the correct count would be if, having heard 'call', the all in player tabled his cards.

                Is the caller now allowed to fold knowing he's behind?

                He was willing to pay 10600 to find out.
                Last edited by Morihei; 16-08-10, 10:42.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I suppose it would depend on a few factors, if any of the cards have been exposed well thats were it would get tricky.

                  If no cards had been exposed i would probably go with the ruling that he would be able to reassess his option on calling/folding but if cards are exposed he either see's he is ahead/behind and would probably make the call stand.

                  Really interested to hear what one of the TD's would do JP/John Scanlon/Neil Kelly etc.
                  "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by DonkeyPokerTour View Post
                    I was dealing today, the blinds were 600-1200. A raise to 4k comes back around to the Big Blind who pushes all in. I do a count and tell the original raiser its 10600 more roughly half his remaining stack, he thinks about it for a while asks me to spread the pot and eventually says "Call".

                    I then realise it is actually 15600 more, nearly 3/4 of the guys remaining stack. I call the floor to get a ruling.

                    If I called you as a floor man what ruling would you make?

                    Regards
                    Ian
                    First of all, never ever spread the pot.

                    Second, always give the total amount of the bet being faced, not the difference. It gives you 1 less chance to make a math mistake and makes your job more simple.

                    Basically it's up to the player to make sure everything is in order with the bet etc. So my ruling would be to make him call the full amount of the bet.
                    As players, you have to protect your hand/count the bet etc.

                    For me, it comes down to thinking about the other guy (bettor), you can't punish him for doing nothing wrong, the full amount has to be taken into account.

                    What was the ruling given?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Why not spread the pot?
                      "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

                      Comment


                        #12
                        From my experience dealers are allowed spread the pot but not stack it if it is not already stacked..
                        Pining for Wa'erford

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by tylerdurden94 View Post
                          Why not spread the pot?
                          if a players asks to spread the pot then you have to because your not allowed count it.

                          if the cards havent been turned up then he should be allowed rethink his decision based on the new count.

                          if theyre turned up then then it would have to be a call for the full amount.

                          dealer error but dealers are human and make mistakes so best to go with whats fairest in the interst of both parties

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by liz:) View Post
                            if a players asks to spread the pot then you have to because your not allowed count it.

                            if the cards havent been turned up then he should be allowed rethink his decision based on the new count.

                            if theyre turned up then then it would have to be a call for the full amount.

                            dealer error but dealers are human and make mistakes so best to go with whats fairest in the interst of both parties
                            Just curious as to why he says "never ever spread the pot" i know in NL Holdem you can ask to spread the pot because the dealer cant tell you but if you ask in a PL game they have to tell you.

                            As you say dealers make mistakes but its a little tricky situation with this ruling.
                            "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by tylerdurden94 View Post
                              Just curious as to why he says "never ever spread the pot" i know in NL Holdem you can ask to spread the pot because the dealer cant tell you but if you ask in a PL game they have to tell you.

                              As you say dealers make mistakes but its a little tricky situation with this ruling.
                              yeh its dodgy enough,i dont think it would be possible to please both of them in this situation

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by curleywurley View Post
                                First of all, never ever spread the pot.
                                First of all ignore the above.

                                Second of all always spread the pot when asked to.

                                I agree with Morihei, player has to call the 10.6 and can now decide wheter to call the remainder.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by bohsman View Post

                                  Second of all always spread the pot when asked to.
                                  Who taught you to do this? Where did you get it from that it's ok to spread the pot?

                                  Part of the skill of the game of poker is knowing what is in there. . .

                                  Weak.
                                  Last edited by curleywurley; 16-08-10, 22:21.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by curleywurley View Post
                                    In America you never ever spread the pot.
                                    Part of the skill of the game of poker is knowing what is in there. . .
                                    I have definitely seen it done in some of the american poker shows, afaik it would be a common thing to do.
                                    "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by tylerdurden94 View Post
                                      Just curious as to why he says "never ever spread the pot" i know in NL Holdem you can ask to spread the pot because the dealer cant tell you but if you ask in a PL game they have to tell you.
                                      Pot Limit Poker is the only variant where you declare the size of the pot.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by curleywurley View Post
                                        Pot Limit Poker is the only variant where you declare the size of the pot.
                                        Yes that is true and if you want to calculate the pot in a NL game you can ask the dealer to spread the pot, so your previous statement "never spread the pot" is incorrect.
                                        "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          1) Spreading the pot (in NLH) when asked is fine UNLESS there are house rules that state otherwise.

                                          2) The calling player's verbal declaration basically seals the deal here. He is calling the other players bet not the amount you declare it to be. The mistake sucks but the call is clear. Call stands. Shove the chips in the pot (once they are right) and have the players flip the cards over.
                                          May you live in interesting times!

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by curleywurley View Post
                                            Who taught you to do this? Where did you get it from that it's ok to spread the pot?

                                            Part of the skill of the game of poker is knowing what is in there. . .

                                            Weak.
                                            Its standard, hand that knocked me out of the wsop one year the ruling was given, as you say dealer cant tell you whats in there but can spread the pot to make it easier for the player to be able to count it.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by tylerdurden94 View Post
                                              Yes that is true and if you want to calculate the pot in a NL game you can ask the dealer to spread the pot, so your previous statement "never spread the pot" is incorrect.
                                              From your location I understand you are in Vegas, the home of poker. Go down to The Venetian and ask one of the poker room floor managers the question, come back here and let us all know what he said.

                                              I'll accept I made a mistake if he say's you can spread the pot.

                                              Thanks,
                                              C

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by bp_me View Post
                                                1) Spreading the pot (in NLH) when asked is fine UNLESS there are house rules that state otherwise.

                                                2) The calling player's verbal declaration basically seals the deal here. He is calling the other players bet not the amount you declare it to be. The mistake sucks but the call is clear. Call stands. Shove the chips in the pot (once they are right) and have the players flip the cards over.
                                                1, Whats the point in not allowing a dealer to tell the amount that's in the pot if you're just going to spread it anyway.

                                                2, NH

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by curleywurley View Post
                                                  From your location I understand you are in Vegas, the home of poker. Go down to The Venetian and ask one of the poker room floor managers the question, come back here and let us all know what he said.

                                                  I'll accept I made a mistake if he say's you can spread the pot.

                                                  Thanks,
                                                  C
                                                  See my post above, player raises, I push, he's pot commited but wishes he wasnt so asks for a count. Floor is called and quickly rules as is common that the dealer cant count it but can spread the pot.

                                                  The difference between counting and spreading? When theres antes in play there can be a mountain of chips in there, its just so players can see any big chips that were hidden.
                                                  Last edited by bohsman; 16-08-10, 22:45.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by curleywurley View Post
                                                    1, Whats the point in not allowing a dealer to tell the amount that's in the pot if you're just going to spread it anyway.
                                                    I don't make the rules. There is no rule against spreading the pot (or at least not anywhere in Ireland that I have heard of).

                                                    Please, do tell us where you play (or deal, or run the floor) where the dealer is not allowed spread the pot and tell us why.
                                                    May you live in interesting times!

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by curleywurley View Post
                                                      From your location I understand you are in Vegas, the home of poker. Go down to The Venetian and ask one of the poker room floor managers the question, come back here and let us all know what he said.

                                                      I'll accept I made a mistake if he say's you can spread the pot.

                                                      Thanks,
                                                      C
                                                      Ive no idea about the Venetian i am not in Vegas. As was just pointed out in a previous post a couple back in a WSOP event the pot was spread i would assume in America it might be house rule dependant.

                                                      As we are in Ireland and i would hazard a guess that it would be the same for Europe it would be common place if a dealer is requested to spread the pot that they would do so.
                                                      "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by curleywurley View Post
                                                        Who taught you to do this? Where did you get it from that it's ok to spread the pot?

                                                        Part of the skill of the game of poker is knowing what is in there. . .

                                                        Weak.
                                                        How come you're so sure you can't? Any time I've seen it discussed it's always been that it's allowed.

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by bohsman View Post
                                                          See my post above, player raises, I push, he's pot commited but wishes he wasnt so asks for a count. Floor is called and quickly rules as is common that the dealer cant count it but can spread the pot.
                                                          I read your post above, and don't mind that if it it's common in LV card rooms to spread the pot, to admit I made a mistake. I'm not a machine.

                                                          Maybe I should've started my post imho.

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Here goes- Decide for yourselves. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27...ad-pot-843231/

                                                            Post's 4, 6, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15 I know to be from respected voices on 2+2, and all work as experienced Cardroom Floor Managers and all regularly post in that forum, exclusively on the subject of 'Rules and Rulings' in American Casino Poker.
                                                            Good Night,
                                                            C

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by curleywurley View Post
                                                              Here goes- Decide for yourselves. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27...ad-pot-843231/

                                                              Post's 4, 6, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15 I know to be from respected voices on 2+2, and all work as experienced Cardroom Floor Managers and all regularly post in that forum, exclusively on the subject of 'Rules and Rulings' in American Casino Poker.
                                                              Good Night,
                                                              C
                                                              "I agree, terrible rule.

                                                              Unfortunately spreading the pot seems to be the trend. "

                                                              Id agree with that.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                To the OP i would like to hear the conclusion of the hand and also apologise for dragging the thread a little off topic.
                                                                "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Personally, I think it's more important that the players can make accurate decisions than it is that some time is wasted by dealers counting chips.
                                                                  "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    tylerdurden94: I'd like to wait until I get a reply from maybe John, JP or Neil before I post the actual ruling, dont worry about it being dragged slightly off topic.

                                                                    I'll also give the reason for the miscount, player had 1000 chips and 500 chips, I counted a stack of 1000chips as a stack of 500 chips, so I thought there was 5k in the stack of 10 instead of 10k, still completely my fault but you can see where the error could occur.

                                                                    So John, JP or Neil can you add anything to this debate?

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by curleywurley View Post
                                                                      Part of the skill of the game of poker is knowing what is in there.
                                                                      Although this is very true, a competent dealer should have the pot arranged in such a way as all chip denominations are on show without having to be asked to 'spread the pot'. (It doesn't have to be tidily stacked - pet hate of mine.)

                                                                      So, in asking a dealer to 'spread the pot', you are actually helping him with his job!

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by curleywurley View Post
                                                                        From your location I understand you are in Vegas
                                                                        I think he is a good few light years away from Vegas, on a planet visited by the occupants of the 'Nostromo'. This turned out to be their undoing.

                                                                        Don't think they play poker there, but I've seen him in the odd card room when he's visiting Earth.

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          Hi Ian,


                                                                          Fairly simple rule tbh.

                                                                          If cards haven't been turn on their back. Players B gets to take back his chips and act on the correct information.

                                                                          If cards have been turn on their back. Player B has made his decision based on the all-in been 10,600. I would freeze the action as if player A only had 10,600 and run the hand out. This situation happened earlier this year in the EPT Deauville and this is the ruling which was given.

                                                                          Regards speading the pot. As already stated above unless house rules state you can't spread the pot, you can ask the dealer to spead the pot. I've not worked at any poker festival anywhere in Europe were players are not allowed to ask the dealer to spead the pot.

                                                                          Hope this Helps.
                                                                          €10,000 GTD New Monthly Tournament
                                                                          Village Green Card Club, Last Thursday of the Month, €270 Freezeout
                                                                          €1,000,000 GTD - Irish Open
                                                                          CityWest Hotel, 6th-13th April

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by Morihei View Post
                                                                            I think he is a good few light years away from Vegas, on a planet visited by the occupants of the 'Nostromo'. This turned out to be their undoing.

                                                                            Don't think they play poker there, but I've seen him in the odd card room when he's visiting Earth.
                                                                            Full marks to you sir well done do you know me by the way?
                                                                            "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                                              Hi Ian,


                                                                              Fairly simple rule tbh.

                                                                              If cards haven't been turn on their back. Players B gets to take back his chips and act on the correct information.

                                                                              If cards have been turn on their back. Player B has made his decision based on the all-in been 10,600. I would freeze the action as if player A only had 10,600 and run the hand out. This situation happened earlier this year in the EPT Deauville and this is the ruling which was given.

                                                                              Regards speading the pot. As already stated above unless house rules state you can't spread the pot, you can ask the dealer to spead the pot. I've not worked at any poker festival anywhere in Europe were players are not allowed to ask the dealer to spead the pot.

                                                                              Hope this Helps.
                                                                              Hi JP

                                                                              Thanks very much for your input, your ruling is exactly the ruling I expected to receive, it would have been a completely different ruling if the player had not asked the dealer for a count and just acted on what a player said.

                                                                              The ruling that was given however was that the player had no choice but to call the 15600, in fairness to the guy I could see he was upset but didn't take it too badly. I think this is a horrible ruling simply because if the dealer made an error much larger say counting a stack of 10k chips as a stack of 5k chips then you could be talking a massive difference which would be very unfair on the player.

                                                                              Now I know people will argue that shouldn't the player who is calling be able to see the different chip colours, but what if he's colour blind or two of the chips are very similar colours? Where possible I believe players should not be punished for a dealers mistake.

                                                                              Regards
                                                                              Ian

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by DonkeyPokerTour View Post
                                                                                Hi JP

                                                                                Thanks very much for your input, your ruling is exactly the ruling I expected to receive, it would have been a completely different ruling if the player had not asked the dealer for a count and just acted on what a player said.

                                                                                The ruling that was given however was that the player had no choice but to call the 15600, in fairness to the guy I could see he was upset but didn't take it too badly. I think this is a horrible ruling simply because if the dealer made an error much larger say counting a stack of 10k chips as a stack of 5k chips then you could be talking a massive difference which would be very unfair on the player.

                                                                                Now I know people will argue that shouldn't the player who is calling be able to see the different chip colours, but what if he's colour blind or two of the chips are very similar colours? Where possible I believe players should not be punished for a dealers mistake.

                                                                                Regards
                                                                                Ian
                                                                                Were did this happen and who made the ruling?
                                                                                €10,000 GTD New Monthly Tournament
                                                                                Village Green Card Club, Last Thursday of the Month, €270 Freezeout
                                                                                €1,000,000 GTD - Irish Open
                                                                                CityWest Hotel, 6th-13th April

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by curleywurley View Post
                                                                                  Who taught you to do this? Where did you get it from that it's ok to spread the pot?

                                                                                  Part of the skill of the game of poker is knowing what is in there. . .

                                                                                  Weak.
                                                                                  Poker TDA:

                                                                                  "35. Pot Size
                                                                                  Players are entitled to be informed of the pot size in pot-limit games only. Dealers will not count the pot in limit and no-limit games."

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by tylerdurden94 View Post
                                                                                    Full marks to you sir well done do you know me by the way?
                                                                                    Everyone has their Tyler Durden. Some know, some haven't discovered yet!

                                                                                    Seriously, I played at your table at JPfest 2009, where you played impressively - I think you took down the tourney.

                                                                                    Was at your table at Tramore Masters 2009, but not as a player!

                                                                                    gl

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by Morihei View Post
                                                                                      Everyone has their Tyler Durden. Some know, some haven't discovered yet!

                                                                                      Seriously, I played at your table at JPfest 2009, where you played impressively - I think you took down the tourney.

                                                                                      Was at your table at Tramore Masters 2009, but not as a player!

                                                                                      gl
                                                                                      You sure its me? I defo wasnt at the Tramore Masters but i did play the JP game and finished 4th.

                                                                                      Its always good to put a face to the name so if you do see me say hello
                                                                                      "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

                                                                                      Comment

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