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pretty basic question about UTG pushing range

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    pretty basic question about UTG pushing range

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    Say we have gone just under 10 bigs in turbo mtt and blinds are going up soon.

    what's our utg pushing range?

    the reason i ask is i overheard someone who i rate as very good recently say that it's better to push 98o than A2o because it plays better vs people's calling range.

    now i am also sure I once heard Doke say in this spot we should be snap pushing any Ace because we are at least always mostly going to have 30% equity with our ace and rarely crushed into 20% equity by an overpair obv (now again i could have misunderstood Doke and or the other guy or be missing some crucial point along the way)

    i guess ppl will ask other questions about ICM, bubble issues, stacks sizes around the table, are we shorthanded, and so on but i dont have any specific examples but i would appreciate if anyone could throw any light on the subject in a general sense.

    do we ever chose 98o or say JTo over A2o in this spot or are they both always auto shoves anyway rendering the question somewhat irrelevant??

    #2
    Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
    i guess ppl will ask other questions about ICM, bubble issues, stacks sizes around the table, are we shorthanded,
    I think you should at least define if we are 6 or 9 handed.
    UTG 6 handed is the same as MP 9 handed.

    Personally, 9 handed, I push pretty strong UTG with hands that will do well if called and hands like 98o and JTo creep into my range only in late positions

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      #3
      Originally posted by Mellor View Post
      I think you should at least define if we are 6 or 9 handed.
      UTG 6 handed is the same as MP 9 handed.

      Personally, 9 handed, I push pretty strong UTG with hands that will do well if called and hands like 98o and JTo creep into my range only in late positions

      saY shorthanded. question so, u say 98 and JT creep into your range in lp, so are they chosen above say the rag aces? like for me i'd snapshove A2 in CO shorthanded with 6-10 bigs 6 handed way before i'd do it with 98o.

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        #4
        Not sure if this is what you're saying - but, its not an either or question [ie not hands like 8,9s versus A.x type hands].

        Under 10 bb you have to get to work, and both type hands are good for open shoving for different reasons, first category because they stack up ok where called as you're usually not dominated, second category because it increases the chance of having an overcard to caller or lessens the combo of hands they could call with.

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          #5
          Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
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          Say we have gone just under 10 bigs in turbo mtt and blinds are going up soon.

          what's our utg pushing range?
          It depends on whether or not there are antes, how many people you have to get through, and calling ranges. M is the key concept when assessing the risk/reward of profitable open shoves rather than number of big blinds. Without antes, a 10 bb shove is approximately M 7 and assuming optimal calling ranges behind at a 9 handed tables, the range you can shove profitably utg is top 8%:

          88+, AQo+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs

          With antes, M typically drops to 5 making it profitable to shove more hands (top 12%):

          55+, AJo+, A9s+, KQo, K9s+, QTs+,J Ts+, T9s+

          Notice that A2o+ and 98o+ are both well below the bottom of this range. It's old school to think you have to shove that wide as soon as you dip below 10 bbs. That may have been ok back in the day when calling ranges were ridiculously tight, but nowadays people correctly call much wider/closer to optimally. I just shoved 10 bbs utg in a turbo on Party and the small blind called with KTs. That generally didn't happen a few years ago.

          "The blinds were about to go up" is sometimes used as an excuse for -cEv shoves but that's pretty old school too. If the blinds are about to go up, you're better off waiting for them to do so before shoving marginal hands as at least then you'll win more if they do get through. As your M shrinks the number of hands you can profitably shove from any position increases, so you're more likely to get a profitable spot. With M 7, you can shove top 8% from UTG 9 handed. With M 3, that rises to 19%.

          Imminent increase of blinds is only a factor when they will cause your fold equity on open shoves to disappear. For example, without antes, the BB will be priced in to call with atc if you shove 3 bbs or less, so it's worth taking a marginally unprofitable shove to avoid this.

          the reason i ask is i overheard someone who i rate as very good recently say that it's better to push 98o than A2o because it plays better vs people's calling range.

          now i am also sure I once heard Doke say in this spot we should be snap pushing any Ace because we are at least always mostly going to have 30% equity with our ace and rarely crushed into 20% equity by an overpair obv (now again i could have misunderstood Doke and or the other guy or be missing some crucial point along the way)
          Now we're on to a different question: which is a better hand to shove, A2o or 98o. The view that 98o plays better against calling ranges than A2o is old school (and also ignores the fact that with an ace as a blocker in our hand, we're less likely to get called than without one due to card removal).

          Let's look at some of the maths:
          If we think the calling range is top 10% of hands, then 98o has 30.3% equity and A2o has 34.9%
          Top 20%: 98o 33.1%, A2o 41.7%
          Top 40%: 98o 36%, A2o 46.7%
          Atc: 98o 48.1%, A2o 54.9%

          So across all calling ranges, A2o has more equity than 98o. The reason why some players seem to think otherwise is unnecessary fear of domination: yes, you're more likely to be dominated when called with A2o, but this is just a small part of the time and the rest of the time you're going to be better off with the A2o. People also tend to overstate how bad it is to be dominated. A2o v AKo is only 26%, but 98o is less than 10% better. This 10% in this specific case doesn't compensate for the times we get called by, for example, KJo (98o 36%, A2o 54.9%) or tens (98o 14.2%, A2o 28.7%).
          My poker blog - Doking around in cyberspace

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            #6
            Thats one of the best strategy answers on here in a long time Dara. Really informative.

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              #7
              Originally posted by doke View Post
              The reason why some players seem to think otherwise is unnecessary fear of domination.
              It goes back to the saying "at least i'm live".
              Total nonsense, the extra equity some of the time doesn't make up for losing equity most of the time.

              Comment


                #8
                was playing that tourn out in clane the other day, down 2 last 2 tables both tables playing 5 handed i shove utg for 340 thousand wit aq hearts blinds r at 30 60 thousand fellow on big blind calls me for half is stack wit 34 clubs now i know maybe preflop the odds r like 60 40 but come on how can he call? so am i the only 1 that thinks this is bad? needless 2 say he hits the 4 on the turn so could i hav played this hand differently? is he ever right 2 call that after sitting 4 like 17 hours playing
                Last edited by HERBALISATION; 14-03-12, 12:09.

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