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    strange decission at fitz sun nite

    Hi was playing the 50+5 tourney in fitz sunday nite when a strange one happened.
    Note I wasn't in the hand at all just at the table.
    Player a all in (lowest stack) pk kings.
    Player b all in AJ off ( about 1000 chips more than player A)
    player C calls 9/9 (about 1000 chips more than player b)
    cards tabled 4 rags +jack (on flop)

    Player a wins main pot. with kings.
    player b pushes side pot to player c and walks off downstairs.
    No one cops the jack.
    dealer deals next hand and is played.
    Dealer starting to deal next hand when player b come back to table says she had hit the jack and wants her chips back. floor comes up then and takes the chips from playerc and game continues.
    I did say the hand is over andthe next hand played so too late. come back was cards speak ....

    I personally think the dealer f up.
    The player f up.
    But when the next hand was dealt there could be no going back.
    Player c could have lost the chips in the next hand- who would give them back.
    player c could have shoved and other players folded because of the extra chips which he gives back to player b then ..

    What do others think?

    #2
    Originally posted by jem View Post
    player b pushes side pot to player c and walks off downstairs.
    Players do not push pots to other players. The dealer pushes the pot.
    I want to hear other players in the hand / on the table, the dealer, and the tournament director before I believe this.

    Comment


      #3
      This sounds pretty unlikely, but the player with the AJ is entitled to his chips haveing won the side pot.

      I can't see any way the chips from the side pot should be awarded to the player holding 99.

      Comment


        #4
        Frist of all I wasn't in the hand at all so didn't effect me in any way.
        The aj person was standing up and pushed the side pot towards the 99 player a youngish lad.
        The dealer collected pushed the main pot to the kings the 99 picked up the side pot and play continued to the next hand.
        As I said there was a f up all round. the aj should have gotten the side pot but didn't and left the table

        Comment


          #5
          Where were the 99 & AJ players sitting in relation to one another?

          Even if the AJ player made the mistake of pushing the side pot to the other player it's not his job to do so and is still entitled to his chips.

          Comment


            #6
            KK was in seat 1.
            99 was in seat 6
            AJ seat 8
            bytw I was in seat 3.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by jem View Post
              Hi was playing the 50+5 tourney in fitz sunday nite when a strange one happened.
              Note I wasn't in the hand at all just at the table.
              Player a all in (lowest stack) pk kings.
              Player b all in AJ off ( about 1000 chips more than player A)
              player C calls 9/9 (about 1000 chips more than player b)
              cards tabled 4 rags +jack (on flop)

              Player a wins main pot. with kings.
              player b pushes side pot to player c and walks off downstairs.
              No one cops the jack.
              dealer deals next hand and is played.
              Dealer starting to deal next hand when player b come back to table says she had hit the jack and wants her chips back. floor comes up then and takes the chips from playerc and game continues.
              I did say the hand is over andthe next hand played so too late. come back was cards speak ....

              I personally think the dealer f up.
              The player f up.
              But when the next hand was dealt there could be no going back.
              Player c could have lost the chips in the next hand- who would give them back.
              player c could have shoved and other players folded because of the extra chips which he gives back to player b then ..

              What do others think?
              Its a bit of a messy one technically a new hand starts when the cards are been washed by the dealer so there shouldnt really be any comeback for the hand previous but I suppose you could get into the fairness of the game etc.

              I really do think thou that its tough luck for the player with AJ as nobody has spotted the mistake game continues and that player is eliminated from the tournament as you really shouldnt be going into another players stack to be taken chips out of it.

              As you pointed out the dealer and player have both missed this but its also up to all players at the table to speak up if they spot an error and help out when they can.

              Would like to hear a TD's opinion on this.
              "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

              Comment


                #8
                There is certainly scope within the rules to allow the player to get the chips, in the interest of fairness etc.

                The dealer should be able to go back one hand and with the aide of the players get exact chip counts for the all ins and dish out the chips accordingly.
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                  #9
                  Originally posted by BallymoreChris View Post
                  There is certainly scope within the rules to allow the player to get the chips, in the interest of fairness etc.

                  The dealer should be able to go back one hand and with the aide of the players get exact chip counts for the all ins and dish out the chips accordingly.
                  In this case it was BUt ruling have to be consistant IMHO.

                  Player c could have lost the chips in the next hand- who would give them back.
                  player c could have shoved and other players folded because of the extra chips which he gives back to player b then...
                  Player C could have gone all in and knocked out a diff player because of the extra chips..
                  Too many things could have happened.
                  IMHO once the next hand was dealt tere could be no going back.
                  In fairness to player c I don't believe he copped that he should have lost the side pot and when asked for them it did so without complaint.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Rulings have to be fair - consistency is nice to have when possible, but shouldn't be a reason to penalise a perosn who hasn't done anything wrong when it can be avoided.

                    Basically, this is a situation which can be recovered painlessly, so do so.

                    To say, "we can't fix this error in the interests of consistency because there are certain circumstances under which we wouldn't have been able to do so" is foolish.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      something similar happened to me in america...

                      The yanks love to have loads of small chips at the table so every stack looks like a monster anyway I get involved in a huge pot which involves the dealer counting loads of stacks of different colors. I asked him to recount the what he was sending over to me and he did but I was pretty sure he had miscounted twice, then as he pushes the chips over a few of the towers fall over.
                      I stack them up and count them and called the TD, even though the only action of the next hand had been 2/3 people folding and there was clearly a mistake which the dealer accepted as did the villain the TD would not rectify the mistake!!
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                        #12
                        Originally posted by BallymoreChris View Post
                        something similar happened to me in america...

                        The yanks love to have loads of small chips at the table so every stack looks like a monster anyway I get involved in a huge pot which involves the dealer counting loads of stacks of different colors. I asked him to recount the what he was sending over to me and he did but I was pretty sure he had miscounted twice, then as he pushes the chips over a few of the towers fall over.
                        I stack them up and count them and called the TD, even though the only action of the next hand had been 2/3 people folding and there was clearly a mistake which the dealer accepted as did the villain the TD would not rectify the mistake!!
                        That's completely retarded like.

                        Making clearly incorrect calls in the interest of consistency is a farce and completely against the spirit of the game.

                        Like, the answer to every question in poker is "it depends", each ruling should be made on the basis of the merits of the individual situation to a large degree.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Dont think theres anything that can b done,actions taken place on the next hand,its just a mistake, the dealers fault and ace jack player should have seen it

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Charlie Harper View Post
                            Dont think theres anything that can b done,actions taken place on the next hand,its just a mistake, the dealers fault and ace jack player should have seen it
                            Can you explain this?

                            How do you reconcile this view with the fact that the player did in fact get his chips back after which play continued happily?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Thing is the TD didn't ask had there been any action involving the 99 chap. He said just give her the chips. IMHO it was a mistake not to.
                              To be honest the dealer was poor overall.
                              It was obvious that the girl on the AJ was well kown there and was called by her first name.
                              I wonder would a stranger have been treated the same.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                It was a mistake by the td, once action takes place on a hand u shouldnt b allowed to reverse it,it wud have been diffrent if the ace jack lad spotted it b4 the dealer dealt the next hand and then got the td over,but the fact that action had taken place on the next hand he shouldnt have got his chips back

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Charlie Harper View Post
                                  It was a mistake by the td, once action takes place on a hand u shouldnt b allowed to reverse it,it wud have been diffrent if the ace jack lad spotted it b4 the dealer dealt the next hand and then got the td over,but the fact that action had taken place on the next hand he shouldnt have got his chips back
                                  Why?

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    No one cops the jack.
                                    dealer deals next hand and is played.
                                    Dealer starting to deal next hand when player b come back to table says she had hit the jack and wants her chips back. floor comes up then and takes the chips from playerc and game continues.

                                    so what happens the chips in the hand that got played,b4 the td came up and made his decision do the players get their chips back, were 2 hands later, even 1 hand later is to late imo

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Hands over and chips awarded and next hand has started .

                                      No redress and the player with the AJ is out .Its a case of tough shit imo regardless of who the player is .

                                      Firstly its not her place to touch any pot until the dealer awards it to the rightfull winner of that pot.
                                      Secondly she leaves the table and another hand continues in her absence. ( This is her own fault) .

                                      The player that was awarded the chips wrongly has done no wrong and fair play to him for giving the chips back , but i can tell you if i was the player she would get nothing only a chuckle back
                                      Last edited by DAMO72; 05-01-11, 16:28.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Charlie Harper View Post
                                        so what happens the chips in the hand that got played,b4 the td came up and made his decision do the players get their chips back, were 2 hands later, even 1 hand later is to late imo
                                        I don't understand this bit, sorry. Any chance you could rephrase?

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Once the next hand was played from start to finish it's too late imo.

                                          If someone was knocked out on the next hand and then the AJ lady comes back, she's back in the game and the player who was knocked out can argue because the next hand dealt wouldn't have happened.

                                          What if she was the bubble? Then shortstack gambles on another table because bubble is burst.
                                          I know this wasn't case here but the point is it changes the dynamics of a game when a player is knocked out or becomes a short stack. Giving chips back on the 2nd hand after a mistake sets a dangerous precedent.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Why do we have to legislate for all these exotic circumstances when there is a plainly simple solution available?

                                            Take the situation on its merits and act in the interests of fairness.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Charlie Harper View Post
                                              It was a mistake by the td, once action takes place on a hand u shouldnt b allowed to reverse it,it wud have been diffrent if the ace jack lad spotted it b4 the dealer dealt the next hand and then got the td over,but the fact that action had taken place on the next hand he shouldnt have got his chips back
                                              I agree if no other hand had been played it is right to hand back the chips. However the next hand was played.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                the op says,after the hand ANOTHER hand was played AND then the dealer starts to deal the next hand then the td cums over, action has played wit 8 players instead of the supposed 9, so sum1 else is goin to b loosen chips in that hand

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Keane View Post
                                                  Why do we have to legislate for all these exotic circumstances when there is a plainly simple solution available?

                                                  Take the situation on its merits and act in the interests of fairness.
                                                  The fairness of one player or the fairness of all players?
                                                  Fairness works both ways. The trouble with a ruling like this is what if it happens again and people can't agree on the exact chip amount of the side pot, or someone objects because the next hand played makes a huge difference to the tournament outcome(player knocked out, bubble burst etc.)

                                                  Do you then deny that person the chips back? Or do we just make up different rules for exotic circumstances as and when they happen? How can that ever be seen to be fair?

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    If nobody noticed the J on the river then how do you prove there was one there .
                                                    Youve got to admit it would be a great angle to get back into a tourney if you had a mate at the table to confirm your belief of hitting the river.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                                                      The fairness of one player or the fairness of all players?
                                                      Fairness works both ways. The trouble with a ruling like this is what if it happens again and people can't agree on the exact chip amount of the side pot, or someone objects because the next hand played makes a huge difference to the tournament outcome(player knocked out, bubble burst etc.)

                                                      Do you then deny that person the chips back? Or do we just make up different rules for exotic circumstances as and when they happen? How can that ever be seen to be fair?

                                                      The reason the rule is the way it is, is to stop people going back 1/2/3 hands.

                                                      The reason there is a rule that states the TD decision is final is to facilitate circumstances where an obvious injustice is done.
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                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by BallymoreChris View Post
                                                        The reason the rule is the way it is, is to stop people going back 1/2/3 hands.

                                                        The reason there is a rule that states the TD decision is final is to facilitate circumstances where an obvious injustice is done.
                                                        So what is your opinion on this ruling?

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Surely the first job of any TD is common sense. If this happens in an important tournament then the player has surrendered the pot tough luck and they're out.

                                                          However this is a regular game in a "local" card club. Presumably no one had a complaint - clearly a mistake had been made - so in this instance fairness could overrule the situation. - Sounds like everyone was a bit dozy.

                                                          However if anyone at the table objected, then the chips could not have been returned.

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Fatboydim View Post
                                                            Surely the first job of any TD is common sense. If this happens in an important tournament then the player has surrendered the pot tough luck and they're out.

                                                            However this is a regular game in a "local" card club. Presumably no one had a complaint - clearly a mistake had been made - so in this instance fairness could overrule the situation. - Sounds like everyone was a bit dozy.

                                                            However if anyone at the table objected, then the chips could not have been returned.
                                                            Boom headshot

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                                                              So what is your opinion on this ruling?
                                                              I think the ruling was correct.
                                                              Its just a mistake from the dealer (although the player should not have left the table there is no rule against leaving the table!)

                                                              I can't see any reason why players would object to an obvious injustice.

                                                              Final table at largish MTT (4 Handed), player A raises, player B moves all in and stands up player C goes into the tank.....
                                                              While C is in the tank the dealer has a little chat with someone over his shoulder then looks back at the table and reaches across and pulls in player B cards!!
                                                              Player C & D fold.
                                                              Player B is all in with no cards....
                                                              Whats your ruling here?
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                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by BallymoreChris View Post
                                                                I think the ruling was correct.
                                                                Its just a mistake from the dealer (although the player should not have left the table there is no rule against leaving the table!)

                                                                I can't see any reason why players would object to an obvious injustice.

                                                                Final table at largish MTT (4 Handed), player A raises, player B moves all in and stands up player C goes into the tank.....
                                                                While C is in the tank the dealer has a little chat with someone over his shoulder then looks back at the table and reaches across and pulls in player B cards!!
                                                                Player C & D fold.
                                                                Player B is all in with no cards....
                                                                Whats your ruling here?
                                                                Player B needs to do a Nicky Power quick & hope Player A folds

                                                                Did I see a ruling that Player B's call stands but can take back his raise & play the board but Player A can still bet the flop & subsequent streets if they want?
                                                                Last edited by Dice75; 07-01-11, 10:49.

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                                                  Player B needs to do a Nicky Power quick & hope Player A folds

                                                                  Otherwise I presume he's playin the board?

                                                                  The book says he is playing the board, whats your ruling?
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                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by BallymoreChris View Post
                                                                    The book says he is playing the board, whats your ruling?
                                                                    In the interset of fairness I would make his call stand & give him the option of taking back his all in raise., i.e. basically give the pot to Player A.

                                                                    I know technically its his own fault for not protecting his cards.

                                                                    Having said that i'd say it could go either way depending on the TD.
                                                                    Probably 80% would go for all in stands, tough luck i'd imagine.

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Are the cards distinguishable or have they been mixed into the muck?

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by BallymoreChris View Post
                                                                        I think the ruling was correct.
                                                                        Its just a mistake from the dealer (although the player should not have left the table there is no rule against leaving the table!)
                                                                        I can't see any reason why players would object to an obvious injustice.

                                                                        Final table at largish MTT (4 Handed), player A raises, player B moves all in and stands up player C goes into the tank.....
                                                                        While C is in the tank the dealer has a little chat with someone over his shoulder then looks back at the table and reaches across and pulls in player B cards!!
                                                                        Player C & D fold.
                                                                        Player B is all in with no cards....
                                                                        Whats your ruling here?
                                                                        The player didn't just leave the table , she pushed the side pot herself to the player holding the 99 believing she had lost the hand and walked off.

                                                                        Yes the dealer should have noticed and rectified it.
                                                                        Yes the other player should have noticed and returned the chips.
                                                                        Yes any other player at the table should have noticed it and brought it to the dealers attention .
                                                                        None of this happened and a hand was completed and a second hand started in the absense of the player.
                                                                        IMO it was a wrong ruling to award the chips back after this space of time and it is just a harsh lesson that the lady should learn from.

                                                                        The hand above that you mention has no bearing on this situation what so ever but for what its worth i would take a minimum raise out of player B's stack and return the rest of his chips to him and award the pot to player A.
                                                                        I dont believe a player should be made to play a hand out with no cards through dealer error.

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                                                                          The player didn't just leave the table , she pushed the side pot herself to the player holding the 99 believing she had lost the hand and walked off.

                                                                          Yes the dealer should have noticed and rectified it.
                                                                          Yes the other player should have noticed and returned the chips.
                                                                          Yes any other player at the table should have noticed it and brought it to the dealers attention .
                                                                          None of this happened and a hand was completed and a second hand started in the absense of the player.
                                                                          IMO it was a wrong ruling to award the chips back after this space of time and it is just a harsh lesson that the lady should learn from.
                                                                          If she wouldn't have touched the side pot and just walked away from the table would you say the same thing?

                                                                          Her pushing the side pot is pretty much irrelevant IMO, since it's not her job to award the pot.

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by Keane View Post
                                                                            Are the cards distinguishable or have they been mixed into the muck?
                                                                            It was only 4 handed so all players knew what cards they had.
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                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                                                                              The hand above that you mention has no bearing on this situation what so ever but for what its worth i would take a minimum raise out of player B's stack and return the rest of his chips to him and award the pot to player A.
                                                                              I dont believe a player should be made to play a hand out with no cards through dealer error.
                                                                              Its only bearing is that in both situations the dealer made the error and in both situations its very easy to put things right.
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                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by Keane View Post
                                                                                If she wouldn't have touched the side pot and just walked away from the table would you say the same thing?

                                                                                Her pushing the side pot is pretty much irrelevant IMO, since it's not her job to award the pot.
                                                                                it dosnt matter if she touched the pot or not another hand was played when she walked away,so the whole game changes, u cant just get back into a game cause u realise u made a mistake, like sum1 else said this wudnt have happened in a big tourny,she wud have been gone

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by BallymoreChris View Post
                                                                                  It was only 4 handed so all players knew what cards they had.
                                                                                  That's not the same as the cards being distinguishable though and is open to angle-shooting.

                                                                                  Retrieving cards mixed in with the muck I wouldn't really be comfortable with.

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by Keane View Post
                                                                                    That's not the same as the cards being distinguishable though and is open to angle-shooting.

                                                                                    Retrieving cards mixed in with the muck I wouldn't really be comfortable with.
                                                                                    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dx47VMC0c0[/ame]

                                                                                    6 secs in
                                                                                    Last edited by Dice75; 07-01-11, 11:37.

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      I dont think it is a players call to deal with chip awards so it is the right call. I have seen people declare there hands wrong on plenty of occasions such as saying 2 pair when there was a straight on the board etc and the dealer corrects. Not the same thing I know but I took it that you turned your cards and let the dealer do there thing.
                                                                                      In times of dealer (human) error then it always gets devided up as should have happened when it is caught. If the next hand had been played then obviously tough luck

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by Charlie Harper View Post
                                                                                        it dosnt matter if she touched the pot or not another hand was played when she walked away,so the whole game changes, u cant just get back into a game cause u realise u made a mistake, like sum1 else said this wudnt have happened in a big tourny,she wud have been gone
                                                                                        Hold on.

                                                                                        You win a pot, walk away from the table, come back after a smoke to find the dealer has handed your stack to a different player and you can't get back in the game?

                                                                                        No way I can accept that as the default stance tbh.

                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                                                                          That's exactly how I would suggest dealing with that situation.

                                                                                          If the cards are distinguishable - or like in this instance you believe they are - then have the player tell the TD exactly what they were. If the two cards match the player's assertion, you've distinguished them, give them back. If not, the hand is unfortunately dead.

                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Originally posted by Keane View Post
                                                                                            Hold on.

                                                                                            You win a pot, walk away from the table, come back after a smoke to find the dealer has handed your stack to a different player and you can't get back in the game?

                                                                                            No way I can accept that as the default stance tbh.
                                                                                            but she didnt win the pot, the pot was awarded 2 the pocket9s, its just tough luck that it happened, she didnt even realise she won the pot til 2 hands later,2 much actions taken place,it wud have been diffrent if the dealer said jacks wit ace kicker and then she walked off but he didnt pocket 9s was awarded the pot

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              Originally posted by Charlie Harper View Post
                                                                                              but she didnt win the pot, the pot was awarded 2 the pocket9s, its just tough luck that it happened, she didnt even realise she won the pot til 2 hands later,2 much actions taken place,it wud have been diffrent if the dealer said jacks wit ace kicker and then she walked off but he didnt pocket 9s was awarded the pot
                                                                                              We're not going to agree, no point arguing it out any further tbh

                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                Lets go back over it.
                                                                                                She thought she lost the hand.
                                                                                                She pushed the chips to 99.
                                                                                                She said goodby to everyone, collected her stuff and left( diff from going for a smoke)
                                                                                                The next hand was dealt and completed before she came back looking for the chips.
                                                                                                IMHO if the next hand hadn't happened she should get the chips. Once the next hand started and finished she shouldn't get the chips. if not howmany hands should you go back- 1/2/3/10. The cards speak by for how long?
                                                                                                What would have happened if she was on the bubble and someone made a move lost his chips and went out thinking he was in the money anyway and suddenly he becomes the bubble.
                                                                                                If she was still in , she would have been dealt cards so the next hand which was played was effected with players in effect not geting the correct cards. Is there an argument that that hand should be null and void and those chips given back?
                                                                                                There is to many variables , to many occations that it could be used as a precident.
                                                                                                BYTW I did say openly that she shouldn't get the chips back as the next hand had been played so there was an objector at the table but the TD dismissed me.

                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  ya i think that if the next hand had gone by then tough break makes most sense. I am sure it is above but if during the next hand the guy who recieved the chips pushed all in and lost then should they take chips off some one else. Or if they won and narrowly covered the opponent due to the extra stack then is that player then also entitled to a return of chips. Seems like a strange enough one but is there an officail rule on this?

                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    What if there was no J and she thought she had a flush?

                                                                                                    What if the 99 guy had 1 flushed but didn't notice because the chips came his way anyway?
                                                                                                    1 hand later he concedes that there was a J on the board and must have lost the side pot.

                                                                                                    I just don't like it.

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