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Tricky AA v SB(blaaaaaah) and BB in $25k

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    Tricky AA v SB(blaaaaaah) and BB in $25k

    This hand is from the $109 $25k gtd DS(10kSS-15min levels) on ipoker.

    8/45 with 30 paid and 45k --->rough guesses.

    1250/2500/250 (9 handed)

    Hero: 86.4k
    SB: 32.3k
    BB: 45.1k


    3 folds, Hero AdAh raises to 5750, 3 folds, SB and BB call.

    Flop(19500): Kc, 10c, 9c

    SB checks, BB snap ships 39.1k

    Hero?

    SB is blaaaaaah off here, I just wasn't typing that all the way through the hand, so obviously a very competent player.

    No info on BB.

    I thought it might make for a interesting thread and also want to hear what people think and do in this spot.

    #2
    dump it. any pair with a club second card is ahead of you here. And with a player to act behind you too.

    Flop better next time

    Comment


      #3
      Call ???
      Not sure why you would consider folding really.
      twitter
      moneybookers

      Comment


        #4
        Read the hand 4 times and never realised there was 3 clubs out there.
        Still calling though.
        twitter
        moneybookers

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Emmet View Post
          dump it. any pair with a club second card is ahead of you here. And with a player to act behind you too.

          Flop better next time
          So if he holds something like KhJc for top pair and 4 to a flush/straight (or any other similar combo), we're still over 40% to win the hand and it's 39k to win 59k. He could also have any 2 pair, but also have the bare Ac in his hand. It's close and i'd defo time down thinking about it but i'd ship over the top

          Comment


            #6
            Dont think he ships wit the flush,prob has flush draw wit pair or nut flush draw, id call hard 1 though

            Comment


              #7
              Ugh, call. You are never in great shape and could be dead to runner runner if he has the old suited connectors but I still sigh & call.

              Comment


                #8
                hardly shippin with a made flush....could play this with the bare AcX....could be as flushdraw said....could even be the old flatted pre KK and shippin to fold out the AcX....

                think id call tho

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by ferg View Post
                  hardly shippin with a made flush....could play this with the bare AcX....could be as flushdraw said....could even be the old flatted pre KK and shippin to fold out the AcX....

                  think id call tho
                  I ship here with a low flush, as well as pair & nut FD, made straight, set and 2 pair. Not everytime but a lot of the time.

                  Maybe I ship with KxQc. Depends on reads though.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I call and ask for a club fade

                    Comment


                      #11
                      easy call. standard flip the vast majority of the time i'd be thinking.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Emmet View Post
                        dump it. any pair with a club second card is ahead of you here. And with a player to act behind you too.
                        We don't need to be ahead to call profitably.
                        I take this verses KxQc or AcKx (which is better still). Which is the bulk of his range as I don't think a good player ships the flopped flush into the PFR
                        Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                        I ship here with a low flush, as well as pair & nut FD, made straight, set and 2 pair. Not everytime but a lot of the time.

                        Maybe I ship with KxQc. Depends on reads though.
                        Why would you ship a made flush?
                        KxQc is a far better hand to ship than the nut FD, its even better than top pair/nfd combo

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                          We don't need to be ahead to call profitably.
                          I take this verses KxQc or AcKx (which is better still). Which is the bulk of his range as I don't think a good player ships the flopped flush into the PFR

                          [B]Why would you ship a made flush?[/B

                          ]KxQc is a far better hand to ship than the nut FD, its even better than top pair/nfd combo
                          I would ship a low made flush here (sometimes) if I was in Blaaaaah's position because it's unlikely that you will get your chips in good on the turn.

                          If I don't ship I donk bet a large amount, at least 3/4 pot and hope someone ships.

                          If you get called you are flipping anyway, unless a made straight or AA (no club) calls you. (Which mostly don't fold to the shove anyway but fold to a club on the turn)

                          I don't understand the 2nd part there when you say KxQc is a better hand to ship with than AcKx.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                            I would ship a low made flush here (sometimes) if I was in Blaaaaah's position because it's unlikely that you will get your chips in good on the turn.

                            If I don't ship I donk bet a large amount, at least 3/4 pot and hope someone ships.
                            If the turn isn't a club 9it won't be most of the time) then you are getting your chips in good, or taking down the pot.

                            Check rasing the flop is better open shipping

                            If you get called you are flipping anyway, unless a made straight or AA (no club) calls you. (Which mostly don't fold to the shove anyway but fold to a club on the turn)
                            what?
                            How is a made flush flipping with any hand?

                            I don't understand the 2nd part there when you say KxQc is a better hand to ship with than AcKx
                            Because a straight draw and a flush draw has more equity when called than just a flush draw.
                            Obviously this assumes that hands > TP call, which is a fair assumption imo
                            Last edited by Mellor; 18-01-11, 01:47.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                              I would ship a low made flush here (sometimes) if I was in Blaaaaah's position because it's unlikely that you will get your chips in good on the turn.

                              Am i reading the OP right, Blaaaaaah hasnt shipped....its the BB that shipped.....blaaaaaah would have to act after we call......

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Did you call and then blaaaaah overcalled with a flopped flush and that's the only reason you're posting this?

                                Obviously call the shove on the flop.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                  If the turn isn't a club 9it won't be most of the time) then you are getting your chips in good, or taking down the pot.

                                  Check rasing the flop is better open shipping


                                  what?
                                  How is a made flush flipping with any hand?


                                  Because a straight draw and a flush draw has more equity when called than just a flush draw.
                                  Obviously this assumes that hands > TP call, which is a fair assumption imo
                                  Ugh, read the hand wrong, I thought Blaaaaah had shipped circa 30k into 20k which is what I would do with a small flush and 2 players to act behind in a raised pot.

                                  I was flippant with my flipping comment, of course you should be ahead at least 65/35% not quite a flip. Unless you are already dead, which is too rare to worry about.

                                  Reading the hand again being the BB with 45k I wouldn't c/r a small flush because strong non flushdraw hands that may call or shove over a bet might check behind.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                                    Ugh, read the hand wrong, I thought Blaaaaah had shipped circa 30k into 20k which is what I would do with a small flush and 2 players to act behind in a raised pot.
                                    If blaaaaah has the made flush dont ya think he's played it perfectly....money on for the triple up.....

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by ferg View Post
                                      If blaaaaah has the made flush dont ya think he's played it perfectly....money on for the triple up.....
                                      True, but that's results based thinking imo.

                                      If I have the low made flush, my hand can't get any better, only worse. Don't give any free cards, especially with 2 players to act behind.

                                      If they have strong hands containing high flushdraw cards they are going in anyway.

                                      If it's checked around and the board 4 flushes you have to drop your hand to significant action.
                                      Plus if it pairs or another straight card comes AA is not getting it in. 2 Pair on the flop won't want to know either. Try and get it in now when the possibility of getting action while your ahead is best.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Alfie View Post
                                        Did you call and then blaaaaah overcalled with a flopped flush and that's the only reason you're posting this?

                                        Obviously call the shove on the flop.
                                        Get real please, such a stupid comment. Comments like above tilt the shit out of me and shouldn't be made here imo unless it's clear that someone has posted a bad beat and is looking for a moan. GTFO. Look through my posts/threads, a lot of them are in this section and a lot are way off the mark but none as stupid or ignorant as yours above. You call, you know you should call, no need to be such a dick.

                                        You think I based it on the result? Did I say at any stage say what action I took in the hand? There result is irrelevant(whether you understand that or not) and there is nothing obvious about this hand to me. Why would I post it if it was so obvious to me what to do?

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                                          True, but that's results based thinking imo.

                                          If I have the low made flush, my hand can't get any better, only worse. Don't give any free cards, especially with 2 players to act behind.

                                          If they have strong hands containing high flushdraw cards they are going in anyway.

                                          If it's checked around and the board 4 flushes you have to drop your hand to significant action.
                                          Plus if it pairs or another straight card comes AA is not getting it in. 2 Pair on the flop won't want to know either. Try and get it in now when the possibility of getting action while your ahead is best.
                                          Im not so sure....

                                          how often in a raised pre pot that has a draw heavy flop of Kc 10c 9c gets checked around?....very seldom imo.....

                                          Back to the question in the OP, which was what next?....i say call then wp or ul......that said i think that the op should of raised more pre anyway, maybe 7000 - 7200....this late in such a valuable tourney (to me anyway )

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Alfie View Post
                                            Did you call and then blaaaaah overcalled with a flopped flush and that's the only reason you're posting this?
                                            To be fair I think Caf is a little past posting beats in the hh forum
                                            even if that's what turns out to have happened, in which case the hand was easy from blaaah's POV

                                            As the hand plays out i call, but its very close. 40% is BE and we are 42-45 against pair flush combos

                                            allowing for sb to act its v.close

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Right I don't really know what I'm trying to get at here or how to explain my line of thought properly or even if I should be thinking this much into the hand, like a lot of you have said get the chips in and hope to fade a club.

                                              I figured blaaaaaah for either KK or AA. I mean look at his stack size, he shouldn't be calling here and I couldn't give him any other hands att tbh. So I figured if I get it in for the 39k and blaaaaaah calls off his 26k. The side pot is 26k and I'm either dead or racing to split the main. If blaaaaaah has KK I could be dead to two outs, one of which might take the side pot away. If he has AA I'm racing to split the main and also racing to split the side. So obv I didn't see it as such a clear call as everyone else.

                                              Should we be ignoring the SB in this hand? I haven't seen many of you mention him and he was the reason I tanked. I was 100% at the the time that blaaaaaah was calling off here fwiw. Does that just make the pot bigger for us and a better price to call or is it irrelevant? I'm sure my thoughts aren't conventional but w/e.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by ferg View Post
                                                Im not so sure....

                                                how often in a raised pre pot that has a draw heavy flop of Kc 10c 9c gets checked around?....very seldom imo.....

                                                Back to the question in the OP, which was what next?....i say call then wp or ul......that said i think that the op should of raised more pre anyway, maybe 7000 - 7200....this late in such a valuable tourney (to me anyway )
                                                If it got checked around, I might be posting about what to do in that spot too! But yes it would get checked around a fair bit of the time. I'm checking back a lot of my opening range here too, underpairs to the board, JJ, QQ, AQ, AJ with no clubs. But it's more rare imo that I'm not given a chance to decide whether to bet or check.

                                                Too early to give a result imo so I'm not giving it just yet. I don't see a problem with my bet sizing at all btw.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  i mention the bet sizing because, both sb and bb are priced in to call even with less marginal hands....connecters (both suited or unsuited) or QxJx, Kx10x and the like, bigger raise pre at this stage could knock out the sb with these type hands yet price the bb in....

                                                  i know its AA but id rather play a big pot this late with one player rather than two......but hey thats my opinion......and ive just celebrated my first year anniversary at this game!!

                                                  of course i mean commiserated....not celebrated!!!!!

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by ferg View Post
                                                    i mention the bet sizing because, both sb and bb are priced in to call even with less marginal hands....connecters (both suited or unsuited) or QxJx, Kx10x and the like, bigger raise pre at this stage could knock out the sb with these type hands yet price the bb in....

                                                    i know its AA but id rather play a big pot this late with one player rather than two......but hey thats my opinion......and ive just celebrated my first year anniversary at this game!!

                                                    of course i mean commiserated....not celebrated!!!!!
                                                    Lol, congratulations if it was a good year, commiserations otherwise. I'm not long past my 1st birthday at it either, so still very much a newbie. I only started playing a few months before joining here.

                                                    My opening bet size is always going to be between 2-2.5x at this stage of a mtt. Any size above this would be for a reason, ie. to show weakness when strong or to show strength when weak depending on the table and players still to act, but it would be very rare I make it more than 2.5x without miss-clicking.

                                                    If you make it 7-7.2k here with AA are you making it 5750 or something small with a weaker hand(obv every hand is weaker but you know what I mean)?

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Caf View Post
                                                      Get real please, such a stupid comment. Comments like above tilt the shit out of me and shouldn't be made here imo unless it's clear that someone has posted a bad beat and is looking for a moan. GTFO. Look through my posts/threads, a lot of them are in this section and a lot are way off the mark but none as stupid or ignorant as yours above. You call, you know you should call, no need to be such a dick.

                                                      You think I based it on the result? Did I say at any stage say what action I took in the hand? There result is irrelevant(whether you understand that or not) and there is nothing obvious about this hand to me. Why would I post it if it was so obvious to me what to do?
                                                      I was really just pointing out that you titled the thread "Tricky AA v SB(blaaaaah) and BB in $25k" when SB apparently had no part in the hand so it makes sense that something like that actually happened. Also, it's not exactly a tricky spot so I think it's pretty borderline as to whether it's just a vent waiting to happen.

                                                      Sorry for tilting you, anyway, I honestly wasn't trying to be inflammatory. I would certainly call here, his range should be pretty heavily weighted towards AcXx here for sure or some ill-conceived jam for "hand protection" with some value hands that your in really good shape vs.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Caf View Post
                                                        Lol, congratulations if it was a good year, commiserations otherwise. I'm not long past my 1st birthday at it either, so still very much a newbie. I only started playing a few months before joining here.

                                                        My opening bet size is always going to be between 2-2.5x at this stage of a mtt. Any size above this would be for a reason, ie. to show weakness when strong or to show strength when weak depending on the table and players still to act, but it would be very rare I make it more than 2.5x without miss-clicking.

                                                        If you make it 7-7.2k here with AA are you making it 5750 or something small with a weaker hand(obv every hand is weaker but you know what I mean)?
                                                        ha...thanks caf...appreciate it......

                                                        ermmm not quite jumping hoops here, ah well i had a few nice trips away, met a few cracking irish players and overall had a funtime.....and of course had a few nice sweats online along the way...all in all a break evenish year which i class as good....

                                                        my bet sizing here would often depend on a few factors, the prizes, the number of players left, obv my stack size (urs looks sick at this stage), my position in tourney, far from bubble (esp in a valuable tourney (again to me this is a valuable tourney), my opposition (if i had notes on them, their aggresiveness etc of which you know of blaaaah)....blinds+antes in relation to other players stacks, my image, (which could be anything from watertight to supertilt...(my in-laws ahve been living with us the last month or so) lol).......in this instance sometimes a bigger raise pre could get action purely because of your stacksize and the chance of someone sucking out on u......and if i get no call, fxxx it, they may have been cracked anyway....im playing well when chipping up with less risk to my stack and thus improving my chance to score.......it may well be a beginners way of looking at it but thats where im at!

                                                        To answer your question, prob depend on table dynamic and all of the above, i like to mix it up, open small with strong, open big with weak, open small with weak and open big with strong......in this instance for me i only want one player
                                                        Last edited by ferg; 18-01-11, 13:22. Reason: forgot to mention the in-laws :)

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Yeah i'd call but I really wouldn't be happy about it. Sopping wet board but I expect to see Acx, KxQc/Jc an awful lot here.

                                                          SBs flat is weird to say the least. I have no idea what he shows up with here.

                                                          I like the raise size pre. Standard for a LP raise no? Makes our steals cheaper and gives people a chance to shove when we do have a monster, like we have here.

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            I think its foolish to narrow blaaah's range to AA and KK, in fact i can't see how they are in his range at all. Not when he is oop in a likely 3way pot. I've no table exp with him but i get the impression that he is comfortable going slightly shorter and also with post flop play which justifies or explains his flat. Maybe he'll comment if right in my thinking

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Alfie View Post
                                                              I was really just pointing out that you titled the thread "Tricky AA v SB(blaaaaah) and BB in $25k" when SB apparently had no part in the hand so it makes sense that something like that actually happened. Also, it's not exactly a tricky spot so I think it's pretty borderline as to whether it's just a vent waiting to happen.

                                                              Sorry for tilting you, anyway, I honestly wasn't trying to be inflammatory. I would certainly call here, his range should be pretty heavily weighted towards AcXx here for sure or some ill-conceived jam for "hand protection" with some value hands that your in really good shape vs.
                                                              The main reason I titled the thread with SBs name was because my mind was solely concentrating on the SB call of a very good player with <15bb pf. Players should not be calling here pf and if they are I tend to put them on a very tight range, perhaps that is flawed? I had blaaaaaah on KK/AA. The bottom line is that your previous post has no place in this section, just like a bad beat, I can't even see how this could come across as a bat beat, we're on the flop. Like I said before I found this a very tricky spot, again as stated in thread title, but fair enough if it's not a tricky spot for you or anyone else, it was and still is to me. If ipoker had a timebank I would have used every second of it.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                                I think its foolish to narrow blaaah's range to AA and KK, in fact i can't see how they are in his range at all. Not when he is oop in a likely 3way pot. I've no table exp with him but i get the impression that he is comfortable going slightly shorter and also with post flop play which justifies or explains his flat. Maybe he'll comment if right in my thinking
                                                                Ye, I was wondering was it foolish or not to be doing that. Should I be thinking about his call as much as I was then? I mean should I just call it off and not worry about the player still to act in the hand?

                                                                Just go mad for a sec and say I stick with my reads all of the time if I'm sure about them, does it affect my decision any more or less that I have him on AA/KK and still to act?

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by Moneymaker View Post
                                                                  Yeah i'd call but I really wouldn't be happy about it. Sopping wet board but I expect to see Acx, KxQc/Jc an awful lot here.

                                                                  SBs flat is weird to say the least. I have no idea what he shows up with here.

                                                                  I like the raise size pre. Standard for a LP raise no? Makes our steals cheaper and gives people a chance to shove when we do have a monster, like we have here.
                                                                  but we arent stealing? nor are we late...arent we mid position?

                                                                  and...would it not look like a bullystack steal raise if it were slightly bigger???

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    My sincere apologies, I completely skimmed the HH and didn't notice SBs stack size, my bad.

                                                                    Yeah, it's a legitimately tricky spot alright. The only reason I can think of for him to flat here would be if he had a really big hand and thought you were likely to be raise/folding a decent amount for whatever reason. But combinatorically (I'm sure I fucked up the spelling of that), you have AA, there's a K out there and you beat pretty much everything else bar a flopped flush so I think you certainly have to get it in at this point.

                                                                    Or I guess he could have some speculative hands pre and he thought you were never raise/folding but might b/f lots of flops and he may plan to c/r a decent amount but I've no idea how he plays and this wouldn't even be close to standard so I don't think this is particularly likely.

                                                                    Again, depending on how he plays, he may not even have a suited hand in his range pre here...

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by Caf View Post
                                                                      Ye, I was wondering was it foolish or not to be doing that. Should I be thinking about his call as much as I was then? I mean should I just call it off and not worry about the player still to act in the hand?

                                                                      Just go mad for a sec and say I stick with my reads all of the time if I'm sure about them, does it affect my decision any more or less that I have him on AA/KK and still to act?
                                                                      What is he flatting in this spot though? I'm unsure how he plays given that I've never played against him but he should be three-betting a huge percentage(of hands he wants to play)here from the sb. Even more so I reckon you're a good player who could punish him positionally. I can't imagine that he's bad enough to flat something marginal given his stack. In fact, I can't think of a single hand outside AA or KK that he would play like this. Though I remember him stating in the past that he avoids flips until he's super deep. Forum based reads ftw.
                                                                      Last edited by peterswellman; 18-01-11, 13:41.

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by ferg View Post
                                                                        my bet sizing here would often depend on a few factors, the prizes, the number of players left, obv my stack size (urs looks sick at this stage), my position in tourney, far from bubble (esp in a valuable tourney (again to me this is a valuable tourney), my opposition (if i had notes on them, their aggresiveness etc of which you know of blaaaah)....blinds+antes in relation to other players stacks, my image, (which could be anything from watertight to supertilt...(my in-laws ahve been living with us the last month or so) lol).......in this instance sometimes a bigger raise pre could get action purely because of your stacksize and the chance of someone sucking out on u......and if i get no call, fxxx it, they may have been cracked anyway....im playing well when chipping up with less risk to my stack and thus improving my chance to score.......it may well be a beginners way of looking at it but thats where im at!

                                                                        To answer your question, prob depend on table dynamic and all of the above, i like to mix it up, open small with strong, open big with weak, open small with weak and open big with strong......in this instance for me i only want one player
                                                                        The bolded bit above is all way off the mark and really has nothing to do with bet sizing imo, like I said though I'm a newbie so could be wrong. I can't even begin to think how you factor all that into bet sizes, but that's prob best left to another thread.


                                                                        I remember Damo going trolling in the HH section and a convo starting about bet sizes. I've had a look for it and can't find it but if anyone could it link it to this post is might be relevant iirc.


                                                                        Edit: All of this is another thread though, I'm not worried about the bet size at all in this hand fwiw.
                                                                        Last edited by Caf; 18-01-11, 14:09.

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by Caf View Post
                                                                          The bolded bit above is all way off the mark and really has nothing to do with bet sizing imo, like I said though I'm a newbie so could be wrong. I can't even begin to think how you factor all that into bet sizes, but that's prob best left to another thread.

                                                                          I remember Damo going trolling in the HH section and a convo starting about bet sizes. I've had a look for it and can't find it but if anyone could it link it to this post is might be relevant iirc.
                                                                          link it up....if u can find it.....it could good for me....cheers caf

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by Alfie View Post
                                                                            My sincere apologies, I completely skimmed the HH and didn't notice SBs stack size, my bad. Yeah, it's a legitimately tricky spot alright.
                                                                            All good, and to think that all you had to do was read the thread title that directs you to the SB and a tricky spot.

                                                                            Originally posted by Alfie View Post
                                                                            The only reason I can think of for him to flat here would be if he had a really big hand and thought you were likely to be raise/folding a decent amount for whatever reason. But combinatorically (I'm sure I fucked up the spelling of that), you have AA, there's a K out there and you beat pretty much everything else bar a flopped flush so I think you certainly have to get it in at this point.

                                                                            Or I guess he could have some speculative hands pre and he thought you were never raise/folding but might b/f lots of flops and he may plan to c/r a decent amount but I've no idea how he plays and this wouldn't even be close to standard so I don't think this is particularly likely.

                                                                            Again, depending on how he plays, he may not even have a suited hand in his range pre here...
                                                                            Like I said I had him on AA/KK and felt my read was good at the time, kind of wanted to know why/if it's good to get it in here if you have sb on this exact range.

                                                                            If speculative hands come into his range then fair enough but I didn't think that at the time and I don't he calls there with them still.

                                                                            We've played one hand together but been at the table for a few blind levels fwiw.


                                                                            Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                                                                            What is he flatting in this spot though? I'm unsure how he plays given that I've never played against him but he should be three-betting a huge percentage(of hands he wants to play)here from the sb. Even more so I reckon you're a good player who could punish him positionally. I can't imagine that he's bad enough to flat something marginal given his stack. In fact, I can't think of a single hand outside AA or KK that he would play like this. Though I remember him stating in the past that he avoids flips until he's super deep. Forum based reads ftw.
                                                                            Same thoughts as me and I remember him saying in early stages he would not rr a lot but that is not to say that he doesn't think he can win a big pot by flatting against me here and I think to do this he has to have AA/KK. I really thought that it should massively affected my play in this hand.

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by ferg View Post
                                                                              but we arent stealing? nor are we late...arent we mid position?

                                                                              and...would it not look like a bullystack steal raise if it were slightly bigger???
                                                                              It doesn't matter what our holding is. It's important that our raise sizes stay consistent. And any good player will raise 75%-90% in the CO and Button when folded to and by keeping our raises smaller it costs us less when we get shoved on and have to fold. And even if we do have spanners and someone calls, they'll be OOP. This is good for us, even with a bad holding.

                                                                              And yeah I just noticed our position(I thought it was 6 handed for some reason) but the point still stands.

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                I think you need much more info\\table time on blaaaaaah to narrow his range to KK or AA from his call here preflop, even more so when you are holding AA yourself.

                                                                                I re-ship here most of the time.
                                                                                Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

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                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by Caf View Post
                                                                                  All good, and to think that all you had to do was read the thread title that directs you to the SB and a tricky spot.



                                                                                  Like I said I had him on AA/KK and felt my read was good at the time, kind of wanted to know why/if it's good to get it in here if you have sb on this exact range.

                                                                                  If speculative hands come into his range then fair enough but I didn't think that at the time and I don't he calls there with them still.

                                                                                  We've played one hand together but been at the table for a few blind levels fwiw.




                                                                                  Same thoughts as me and I remember him saying in early stages he would not rr a lot but that is not to say that he doesn't think he can win a big pot by flatting against me here and I think to do this he has to have AA/KK. I really thought that it should massively affected my play in this hand.
                                                                                  The flat scares the crap outta me tbh if I don't have aces here. I'll certainly be willing to play a big one v him post-flop.

                                                                                  Honestly with his stack, He should be three-bet cramming all hands he doesn't want to get called with but are too good to fold. He certainly is better than flatting something like AQ or 99. I know he's an excellent player so I assume he makes alot of the same moves as the winning online regs.

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                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Given stack sizes a top player can only flat with AA or KK preflop there from the SB, and in either cases you are behind - and even against QQc (very unlikely though) you would be flipping, so I'd say is a fold.

                                                                                    sorry just noticed he is on the BB, discard my comment above
                                                                                    Last edited by ViperEyeIRL; 18-01-11, 15:23.
                                                                                    "Poker isn’t about default strategies, it’s about exploiting your opponent's bad tendencies"

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                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      I know I am maybe wrong and you have already said you don't care about bet sizing but why not raise more pre?

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                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by ViperEyeIRL View Post
                                                                                        Given stack sizes a top player can only flat with AA or KK preflop there from the SB, and in either cases you are behind - and even against QQc (very unlikely though) you would be flipping, so I'd say is a fold.

                                                                                        sorry just noticed he is on the BB, discard my comment above
                                                                                        He is SB, BB shoved though.

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                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Originally posted by MegaSin View Post
                                                                                          I know I am maybe wrong and you have already said you don't care about bet sizing but why not raise more pre?
                                                                                          Raising this much is totally fine. 2.2-2.5 is generally the open I'd make.you don't want to go alter your betting too much in a situation like this. You want to open Aces the same way you would kq.

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                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Hey guys, sorry couldn't post till now was getting ready for emop canaries.

                                                                                            Everyone who posted is probably right about the hand and my views on playing short but I'll have to go into detail so everyone knows the correct times to go short but I'll have to start by saying flatting oop with 15bigs unless you have AA is retarded tbh, this is not how I allow myself to get short in games it's prob due to been card dead and zero spots of high % time shove getting through. OK about Caf's hand... but I will say in caf's position and range he puts us both on it has to be a fold with AA and no club.

                                                                                            If I had seen this thread and it was a normal reg who flatted from sb it would scream aces, no reg would ever flat 15bigs with any other hand ever.So anyway If i'm in caf's position with AA and no club when the flop comes down kc10c9c it is as the title says a tricky spot, with check from sb and bb snap shoving the flop like this his range will be at it's lowest top pair and straight draw and it's highest a floped straight with no redraw or maybe 2pair, but more than likey enough of the time it will be inbetween these with probably top pair and qc or jc, so if we look at the hands for a second we are holding AA and no club....sb range is only AA or KK and the bb range is probably top pair and flush draw or straight,bb never has flush ere in this spot. I think it's gotta be a fold...if we have AA and put sb on AA or KK you gotta pick KK for the sole fact you have AA and how unlikely it is to run bullets into bullets, break it down there is AcAh,kdks,khkd,khks and the bb shoving ranges so if you take all this into account you have to fold AA and easily tbh...even if you have bb beat the sb has flopped set or AA with nut flush draw.

                                                                                            From my perspective in the hand as I had AcAh I did not reshove on Caf's open for two reasons, 1 i was not entirely happy that he would call and 2 the bb in question i had a note on that he/she wil call with medium strenght hands if value is there (notes are huge online if your not doing them then start!) I would normally reshove here to keep my reshove showdown stats varied as much as possible. I was of course happy to see bb shove the flop as I new his exact range to be probably top pair and flush draw, I of course didn't figure caf at the time for huge hand as it was just an open but once he timed down I said to myself I should have reshoved pre I was getting called and would of been a huge favourite. So everyone knows now I had AA, Caf had AA and the bb had kq no club. Caf folded the flop n I snapped and took down the pot. Great fold by Caf imo! My sn on ipoker I have changed recently it's now italianstyle101, that was a once off true pp with sn blaaaaaah.
                                                                                            Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                                            My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                                            My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

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                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              Thanks for taking the time to reply. A weight has suddenly been lifted off my shoulders from that post Jason, this hand has been bugging me especially with the amount of people who leave scorch marks on the felt. I was getting worried that no-one would take my line in this spot and that my reasoning was flawed. I don't know if I explained it as well as you have but feeling a lot better about this fold now.

                                                                                              Best of luck in the EMOP.

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                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                Fair play lads very honest input - tbh its rare that iv taken so much from a thread on a msg board. Wp caf and jos

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                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Originally posted by Wombatman View Post
                                                                                                  I re-ship here most of the time.
                                                                                                  He's all-in, reshipping isn't an option
                                                                                                  Originally posted by MegaSin View Post
                                                                                                  I know I am maybe wrong and you have already said you don't care about bet sizing but why not raise more pre?
                                                                                                  Pre-raise is fine

                                                                                                  Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                                                                                  ... I'll have to start by saying flatting oop with 15bigs unless you have AA is retarded tbh, ...

                                                                                                  ... so if we look at the hands for a second we are holding AA and no club....sb range is only AA or KK ...
                                                                                                  nice post Jason, but I'm still not sure if I agree with narrowing the range to AA/KK, esp given out holding and the K on the flop.

                                                                                                  I'm not refering to you, or your range (as i'm unlike to be in a similar situation verses you any time soon) but from the point of view of an unknown sb.

                                                                                                  Flatting with KK+ in the sb is fine if the situation allows (BB note above, or even better a squeeze tendency)

                                                                                                  I think that vast majority of times a player flats in the sb, its a mistake/bad play. As is always giving such a player credit for playing optimally

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                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    Oh of course mellor, situations and the random players who are very spewy post-flop you should go ahead and flatt kk with 15bigs also because they also have a big raise/fold stats too from what I do see online.
                                                                                                    Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                                                    My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                                                    My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

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                                                                                                      #51
                                                                                                      I kinda find it strange that you want it to go 3 way to the flop. I much prefer this when theres a person whos likely to 3 bet rather than peel.


                                                                                                      Mellors line about assuming anyone plays optimally all the time is possibly the best in the thread too. you cant get to specific or you'll probably end up folding all day.....

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                                                                                                        #52
                                                                                                        I'd rather take a chance with AA while im short than reship and have both fold pre....blinds and single raise pre were not enough to put me in a position to get more chips and cash at least. Pretty obv tbh
                                                                                                        Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                                                        My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                                                        My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

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                                                                                                          #53
                                                                                                          I don't see why you wouldn't ship it pre assuming you have a good aggro reshipping range, you have a perfect stack size.

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                                                                                                            #54
                                                                                                            Also I'm assuming caf's opening lightish this stage in the tourney with that stack size which will make his calling range v you wider.

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                                                                                                              #55
                                                                                                              Jeez, I very very rarely fold to 14bb reg 3b shoves. Much happier now that they don't show up with AA or KK all the time.
                                                                                                              Foldaramus et foldarabimus

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                                                                                                                #56
                                                                                                                Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
                                                                                                                Jeez, I very very rarely fold to 14bb reg 3b shoves. Much happier now that they don't show up with AA or KK all the time.
                                                                                                                That's what I thought tbh. I tried a tricky flat call in a very similar position last night with AA.

                                                                                                                Ended up checking it to the river, value betting on a K high board and getting called by JJ.

                                                                                                                Had I shoved I would have doubled up. Not doing that again.

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                                                                                                                  #57
                                                                                                                  Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
                                                                                                                  Jeez, I very very rarely fold to 14bb reg 3b shoves. Much happier now that they don't show up with AA or KK all the time.
                                                                                                                  Yup, you can't really v regs, so exploitable if you are folding a lot/ever.

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                                                                                                                    #58
                                                                                                                    Like i said in the post, i wasn't happy i'd get called by this player, i did not no it was caf or even another competant player plus im playing on ipoker standard hit flop call any bet.. i obv norm ship the loot you will see i said tat in d post earlier also along with my willingness to take a flop 3way.
                                                                                                                    Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                                                                    My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                                                                    My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

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                                                                                                                      #59
                                                                                                                      only seeing this thread now,

                                                                                                                      very interesting,


                                                                                                                      i think the fold is pretty standard with AA no club, given Blaah flatted with such a short stack and you know its him,

                                                                                                                      also the original shippers shoving range has better equity alot of the time vs our hand and thats even without considering Blaah is behind,

                                                                                                                      i would not raise fold vs a regs 15BB shove too often as i'd usually raise with the intention of calling, unless i'm just spewing
                                                                                                                      http://drjff.blogspot.com/

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