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    #61
    Originally posted by reilly110 View Post
    lol im sure prenderville is laughing his ass off at this thread ...folding obviously madness
    This hand was presented in a vaccum and in such folding AK to a single raise to what turns out to be KK is pretty good.

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      #62
      Originally posted by Arazi View Post
      This hand was presented in a vaccum and in such folding AK to a single raise to what turns out to be KK is pretty good.
      slightly results based!

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        #63
        Originally posted by Arazi View Post
        This hand was presented in a vaccum and in such folding AK to a single raise to what turns out to be KK is pretty good.
        Results oriented thinking FTW!!!
        They will be like WTF how does he always have the top of his range, and they will be saying that when you show up with like nine's - Jimmy Fricke
        Nine's are the top of my range - Shaun Deeb

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          #64
          Originally posted by Arazi View Post
          This hand was presented in a vaccum and in such folding AK to a single raise to what turns out to be KK is pretty good.
          silly logic really

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            #65
            Originally posted by reilly110 View Post
            silly logic really
            My logic is in the initial reply to the OP and during the course of the thread before the result I read nothing to change my mind as poster after poster stumbled to make any logical argument or take in any of the dynamics in the OP, a thoroughly disappointing experience.

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              #66
              If you are folding AK to a single reraise from a guy who is 3betting as liberally as this, poker isn't your game imo.

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                #67
                Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                My logic is in the initial reply to the OP and during the course of the thread before the result I read nothing to change my mind as poster after poster stumbled to make any logical argument or take in any of the dynamics in the OP, a thoroughly disappointing experience.
                i didnt read most of thread -but i will help you out

                1 piece of info is all you need -1- your opponent is sean prenderville

                4betting is very profitable
                calling maybe but way tougher to play

                if you fold hands as strong as this he will trample on you -fact

                the end

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                  #68
                  Normally I respect your contributions but that post is actually retarded. We need every piece of information available to us in order to make the most accurate decisions, true some are more weighty than others but to simply ignore some or not pick up on them is negligent.
                  Also fwiw all decisions made in a vaccum should be analysed based on results.

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                    Normally I respect your contributions but that post is actually retarded. We need every piece of information available to us in order to make the most accurate decisions, true some are more weighty than others but to simply ignore some or not pick up on them is negligent.
                    Also fwiw all decisions made in a vaccum should be analysed based on results.

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                      Normally I respect your contributions but that post is actually retarded. We need every piece of information available to us in order to make the most accurate decisions, true some are more weighty than others but to simply ignore some or not pick up on them is negligent.
                      Also fwiw all decisions made in a vaccum should be analysed based on results.
                      You've lost me dude?

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                        #71
                        Originally posted by alanmc101 View Post
                        You've lost me dude?
                        Sorry that was in reply to the Reilly kid

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                          #72
                          Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                          Sorry that was in reply to the Reilly kid
                          no i know that, but bout results bein most important thing in a vacuum? Like lets be honest Sean woke up with the absolute top of his range here.

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Isn't the whole point of poker to make decisions based of ranges of our opponents and whether the play is profitable in the long run ? AK from what i've read would do very well against the ranges in question here. We give ourseleves two chances to win the pot, with the 4-bet and by getting it in against the range we perceive the player would have and winning? I don't really see the point of making decisions in a vaccum tbh.

                            12550/call for me all day.

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                              #74
                              You win all the G-Bucks in the world here with AK.

                              I just 4 bet and try and get it in pre. Anything else is bad in the long run I would say. we arent that deep or anything <50bbs so folding or playing it passively against a agro player is awful.

                              @arazi
                              I understand what you are trying to say and this forum needs some devils advocates but this is super straight forward.

                              My guess is that the only reason we are even hearing about this hand is the fact that it happened on Day 2 of such a massive buy in tournament and the OP was understandably gutted.

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Originally posted by Downtown View Post

                                My guess is that the only reason we are even hearing about this hand is the fact that it happened on Day 2 of such a massive buy in tournament and the OP was understandably gutted.
                                Op won the hand!

                                Comment


                                  #76
                                  Originally posted by Downtown View Post

                                  My guess is that the only reason we are even hearing about this hand is the fact that it happened on Day 2 of such a massive buy in tournament and the OP was understandably gutted.
                                  OP made a straight, id say he was delighted actually

                                  Comment


                                    #77
                                    Originally posted by Daragh999 View Post
                                    Results oriented thinking FTW!!!
                                    That's unfair, Arazi pointed out very clearly why he thought it was likely to be a very big hand in his first post and it turns out he had nailed it.
                                    Turning millions into thousands

                                    Comment


                                      #78
                                      First time in a very long time that I wandered into a theory thread, I quite enjoyed that.
                                      I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that

                                      Comment


                                        #79
                                        Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                        I think you over thoought what I said mate, basically I would flat too but for this opponent his +ev move is to 4bet (obv depends on his post flop play).
                                        LOL, don't think your post contained anything for me to overthink about!! Just highlighted the part where you say that he is 3betting light. Problem is I don't think hes going to 5b light ever here. I'd say when you 4b here hes only jamming QQ+ and AK and might not even 3b QQ all the time to begin with preflop given the position that the OP opened from and the 5bets from his value jamming range will be mostly KK+ and AK. He could have a big range of hands that he 3bets light with but very rarely I think anyone 5bets them here given the 4b from an UTG player.

                                        Anyway I don't think there is any dispute that 4betting is a +EV play, but I think calling is more +EV than 4betting and after all we are trying to make the most profitable decision.

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                                          #80
                                          This is all I was referring to mate. "but it is a much better option than playing Sean oop if your not confident"

                                          I am not trying to come across patronizing.
                                          Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                          My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                          My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                          Comment


                                            #81
                                            i haven't played against the villain and maybe he is so aggressive that 4b/calling is fine here but one factor i don't think people are paying enough attention to is that a very good reason to frequently 3bet people's loose HJ/CO opening ranges is so that people will be happy automatically getting stuff like AK in vs you for 40+bbs regardless of the situation, and a good player will be aware of that fact and actively seeking to take advantage of it.

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                                              #82
                                              Not this situation in particular but can we ever 4 bet fold hands like this in a situation where we crush our opponents 3 bet range but dont do too well against his 5 bet range? Never do it myself but have seen good winning players click it back here online and then fold. How deep would we have to be etc??

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                                                #83
                                                Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                                                Not this situation in particular but can we ever 4 bet fold hands like this in a situation where we crush our opponents 3 bet range but dont do too well against his 5 bet range? Never do it myself but have seen good winning players click it back here online and then fold. How deep would we have to be etc??
                                                I did it in the EMOP last year, 4 bet folded 15% of my stack oop with AK vs a hugely competant TAG shove & got lambasted in the live update thread.

                                                Was player dependant & would do it again in the right circumstances.

                                                Comment


                                                  #84
                                                  Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                                                  Not this situation in particular but can we ever 4 bet fold hands like this in a situation where we crush our opponents 3 bet range but dont do too well against his 5 bet range? Never do it myself but have seen good winning players click it back here online and then fold. How deep would we have to be etc??
                                                  I assume they would be clicking it back with the airball and then folding?

                                                  balanced of course because they click back their entire 4 betting range

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                                                    #85
                                                    Can Sean ever flat a 4b here..say 12.2k..? If he does what's our play on missed flops....?

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                                                      #86
                                                      Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                                                      Not this situation in particular but can we ever 4 bet fold hands like this in a situation where we crush our opponents 3 bet range but dont do too well against his 5 bet range? Never do it myself but have seen good winning players click it back here online and then fold. How deep would we have to be etc??
                                                      Think if we're 4 bet folding, we shouldn't be 4 betting at all then. Wouldn't it mean we're effectively bluffing with AK in that case?

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                                                        #87
                                                        Originally posted by KK82 View Post
                                                        Think if we're 4 bet folding, we shouldn't be 4 betting at all then. Wouldn't it mean we're effectively bluffing with AK in that case?
                                                        Not totally bluffing due to the chance of him flatting the 4 bet. It doesn't really matter if its a bluff or for value, only that its profitable.
                                                        Downtown's point is essentially right in theory. If somebody is 3betting very light but only committing to a 5bet with the top of their range (say 10% of the 3bet range) then 4bet folding will be profitable. The problem is identifying these spots, if they exist at all.

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                                                          #88
                                                          Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                          Not totally bluffing due to the chance of him flatting the 4 bet. It doesn't really matter if its a bluff or for value, only that its profitable.
                                                          Downtown's point is essentially right in theory. If somebody is 3betting very light but only committing to a 5bet with the top of their range (say 10% of the 3bet range) then 4bet folding will be profitable. The problem is identifying these spots, if they exist at all.
                                                          IMO 4 bet folding is the absolute worst of all our options. Three things can happen. We commit about 25% of our stack to either 1) fold AK to his shove 2) Get him to fold a garbage hand, or 3) Get called and have to play AK OOP to a very dangerous player.
                                                          I think folding to his 3 bet is pretty awful, but would rather that than 4 bet folding.

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                                                            #89
                                                            Originally posted by Russh View Post
                                                            Can Sean ever flat a 4b here..say 12.2k..? If he does what's our play on missed flops....?
                                                            continue to rep the nuts, betting flop and turn prob

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                                                              #90
                                                              Originally posted by KK82 View Post
                                                              IMO 4 bet folding is the absolute worst of all our options. Three things can happen. We commit about 25% of our stack to either 1) fold AK to his shove 2) Get him to fold a garbage hand, or 3) Get called and have to play AK OOP to a very dangerous player.
                                                              I think folding to his 3 bet is pretty awful, but would rather that than 4 bet folding.
                                                              I can't remember ever 4 bet folding ak, if I'm 4 betting it I'm going with it. if a nit 3 bets me and the stacks are deep ill flat, even if a lag 3 bets me and were very deep ill still flat with it. I'm only 4 betting it in a spot where I'm comfortable calling off due to either the stacks being short or if I've history with the player and know he's likely to put in way worse than ak.

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                                                                #91
                                                                I'm definitely in the 4b/call camp with history vs this villain. It's obviously not a fist pump but of our three options it is almost definitely the best.

                                                                Folding to preserve stack/edge is flawed logic since villain is going to be on your direct left for the duration and will never make it easy for you to isoalte bad players or steal in future hands, so there is no guarantee of being able to find better low variance spots to chip up.

                                                                Calling is better, but we will almost never win the pot when we miss, and the times we hit we have to be able to win a big enough pot to compensate for the times we just burn off our 5k. Assuming villain barrels off a decent amount we can probably make up for it, but on certain textures/runouts villain may still force a fold from us on later streets after we've hit so it's not that straight-forward.

                                                                Sure, when we 4b/c his 5b range is gonna be super tight but we get a ton of folds, and the times it does go in the only hand we're in terrible shape against is AA of which there are far fewer combos than AK/QQ/JJ so it's just a meh spot.

                                                                Questioning our line after the fact is pointless because Seans game is tailored to induce this kind of action the times he has a hand, all hero can do is adjust his play-back ranges accordingly to avoid being steamrolled.
                                                                "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

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                                                                  #92
                                                                  Originally posted by KK82 View Post
                                                                  IMO 4 bet folding is the absolute worst of all our options. Three things can happen. We commit about 25% of our stack to either 1) fold AK to his shove 2) Get him to fold a garbage hand, or 3) Get called and have to play AK OOP to a very dangerous player.
                                                                  I think folding to his 3 bet is pretty awful, but would rather that than 4 bet folding.
                                                                  I actually went to the trouble of bolding the word IF in the last post to make it clear it was a general comment and not a coment of Seans range here. I even said "if they exist at all" to be clear it wasn't about this hand.

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                                                                    #93
                                                                    Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                                    I actually went to the trouble of bolding the word IF in the last post to make it clear it was a general comment and not a coment of Seans range here. I even said "if they exist at all" to be clear it wasn't about this hand.
                                                                    My point still stands. Don't think 4 bet folding is ever a good play with a hand as strong as AK. If you're even considering not going with it pre, then just flatting is a much better option.

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                                                                      #94
                                                                      Originally posted by KK82 View Post
                                                                      My point still stands. Don't think 4 bet folding is ever a good play with a hand as strong as AK. If you're even considering not going with it pre, then just flatting is a much better option.
                                                                      I often think that whilst playing, but against someone with such a strong range (so not the player in this hand) that you aren't happy getting it all in pre against I think just folding might be better. If someone's range is like AA, KK, AK, QQ, they aren't going to lose many chips to you when you are ahead, and it's really hard to fold on a K or A high board.

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                                                                        #95
                                                                        Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                                                        I did it in the EMOP last year, 4 bet folded 15% of my stack oop with AK vs a hugely competant TAG shove & got lambasted in the live update thread.

                                                                        Was player dependant & would do it again in the right circumstances.
                                                                        If you showed you were rightly lambasted for that part, the rest is fine
                                                                        Turning millions into thousands

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #96
                                                                          Originally posted by KK82 View Post
                                                                          My point still stands. Don't think 4 bet folding is ever a good play with a hand as strong as AK. If you're even considering not going with it pre, then just flatting is a much better option.
                                                                          Your still missing my point I think. All I'm saying is that if somebody has a massive difference between their 3bet and 5bet range then 4bet/fold is profitable. That's all. The reason why is pretty simple.
                                                                          I'm not advising it here and I didn't say it was a better option than simply calling the 3 bet either. I didnt compare it to any option.
                                                                          I was just saying that it can be profitable as a counter point to "you can't ever 4bet fold".

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