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Old 25-08-19, 10:31   #1
tiago
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KQ OOP

Used to play a lot when I was younger, probably only break even player at best, very rarely play these days but played a 70 quid Freezeout on the Fitz the other day, always struggle with these spots OOP.

Blinds 500/1000 Ante 1000

I've 60k ish

CO, button and sb Limp.

I've Kd Qs in BB and make it 5k, co calls and others fold. CO is an old guy who doesn't really know what he's doing, raises with big hands, limps with mediocre and only really pays attention to what he has, doesn't think about opponents hand. We've roughly around the same stack.

Pot 13k
FLOP A 6 4 all spades, I've the Q of Spades, I bet 7000, CO calls.

Pot 27k
Turn As 6s 4s 10h I bet 15k, CO calls.

River
As 6s 4s 10h 2d

Hero?

Apologies if this is in the wrong format or not info given. Haven't posted for years.

Cheers.
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Old 25-08-19, 10:55   #2
TheJiggaman
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The second he called the flop is when you shut down.

Maybe wouldn’t even bet so much on flop - you’d get same info for 4500/5000
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Old 25-08-19, 12:25   #3
Arazi
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Bottom of our range, we have Qs so that blocks some made flush combos, we donít have the Ks which is one card that could have brought him this far.

Like Jigga said I think you have been betting slightly too much but now that we are here I think I can get behind a third barrel.
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Old 25-08-19, 13:38   #4
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I shove/go to McGrattan's.. Nice pints there and two pool tables. Just have to hope another degenerate punts it off at a similar time and you're sorted.
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Old 25-08-19, 15:32   #5
Galwaypoker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiago View Post
Used to play a lot when I was younger, probably only break even player at best, very rarely play these days but played a 70 quid Freezeout on the Fitz the other day, always struggle with these spots OOP.

Blinds 500/1000 Ante 1000

I've 60k ish

CO, button and sb Limp.

I've Kd Qs in BB and make it 5k, co calls and others fold. CO is an old guy who doesn't really know what he's doing, raises with big hands, limps with mediocre and only really pays attention to what he has, doesn't think about opponents hand. We've roughly around the same stack.

Pot 13k
FLOP A 6 4 all spades, I've the Q of Spades, I bet 7000, CO calls.

Pot 27k
Turn As 6s 4s 10h I bet 15k, CO calls.

River
As 6s 4s 10h 2d

Hero?

Apologies if this is in the wrong format or not info given. Haven't posted for years.

Cheers.
What happened on the river? You have all the info just nothing about what happens once the river card is dealt.
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Old 25-08-19, 16:00   #6
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Originally Posted by Galwaypoker View Post
What happened on the river? You have all the info just nothing about what happens once the river card is dealt.
Lol. Hes asking what his action should be on the river. Should he continue with the bluff or shove. He wouldn't be asking for advice if he just told us what he did
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Old 25-08-19, 21:11   #7
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Normally a push on the river may take this down,but your description of the villain leans me towards him holding an A that he is married to. As others have said,a smaller flop bet is sufficient here,and his call lets you put the safety catch on your trigger guard. He isn't for folding.
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Old 25-08-19, 21:13   #8
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Ya dudes not folding. Prob thinks you’re a prick too and will spite call you with Ks10x.

Welcome to the Fitz.
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Old 26-08-19, 20:51   #9
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Interesting spot all told. On the river what are the best bluffs for you to have? Blocking strong hands but unblocking the Ks might be the best possible combination of cards to have, but that said you actually have a large amount of showdown value against the main portion of the villains range that you want to fold, IE the Ks - you beat most combinations of this already. It's the fitz though so he will be calling down with much worse flush draws. I think you should bet, you are just trying to get random pairs (with a spade) to fold - also your line is very strong and it's conceivable that he folds an ace to a river bet - but I really wouldn't be relying on this. If you aren't going to bet the river then the turn/flop line is really bad.

In such a soft tournament I would just check fold the flop, not that betting is bad but it's going to lead to some high varience spots.
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Old 28-08-19, 13:04   #10
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I think you forced yourself into a spot where betting the river is profitable, but I really hate how you got there. You need to find fold 37% of the time. Can this guy fold a pair? As your line is really strong.


But as I said, I hate how you got to the river. Just check fold the flop. You are OOP, you missed, further streets are only getting harder to play unless the flush hits. You dropped less than 10%, just move on to the next one
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Old 28-08-19, 15:08   #11
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This is the sort of thing ive been doing wrong for years. I just nearly always punt, then convince myself, i had to. ( had half my stack in etc) . But it seems to me the old guy usually has it here.

In a soft tournament, with 50 bb, its better to give up after the flop bet. (not that ill ever do that).
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Old 28-08-19, 15:36   #12
Arazi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellor View Post
I think you forced yourself into a spot where betting the river is profitable, but I really hate how you got there. You need to find fold 37% of the time. Can this guy fold a pair? As your line is really strong.


But as I said, I hate how you got to the river. Just check fold the flop. You are OOP, you missed, further streets are only getting harder to play unless the flush hits. You dropped less than 10%, just move on to the next one
Advocating a line of check folding this flop texture is ludicrous. Itís a mandatory bet spot with the betting lead vs a limp callers range.
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Old 28-08-19, 16:58   #13
tiago
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I checked, he shoved and I folded and he indicated that he bluffed.

In hindsight betting turn is probably fairly bad if I'm not going to bet the river when it bricks.
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Old 28-08-19, 17:36   #14
Murdrum
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Originally Posted by Arazi View Post
Advocating a line of check folding this flop texture is ludicrous. It’s a mandatory bet spot with the betting lead vs a limp callers range.
*Apologies, I thought Mellor said simply check, I wouldn't be surprised if checking is optimal line by PIO.
Unless there is significant action or unusual bet sizing, I dont see a scenario where c/f is the best line here.

Also, no numbers to back it up but is a check possibly a better option pre OOP

Also HJ imo made the best case for river bet regarding unblocking KsX

Last edited by Murdrum; 28-08-19 at 17:52. Reason: Misread
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Old 29-08-19, 12:34   #15
Mellor
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Advocating a line of check folding this flop texture is ludicrous. Itís a mandatory bet spot with the betting lead vs a limp callers range.
Based on description of villain I disagree.
Every hand that is ahead of you is calling. It makes the hand increasingly harder to play.
Obviously check/fold or check/call is hugely dependent on bet sizing.
But Iím much happier with a checkback.
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Old 29-08-19, 14:23   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellor View Post
Based on description of villain I disagree.
Every hand that is ahead of you is calling. It makes the hand increasingly harder to play.
Obviously check/fold or check/call is hugely dependent on bet sizing.
But I’m much happier with a checkback.
That's not always a bad thing; and not necessarily.

55, 77, 88, 99, 76s, 56s etc might tag along for 1 street, but should fold to the second barrel, especially without spades in their hand.

They could be in the villain's range as mediroce limp/call hands.
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Old 29-08-19, 14:48   #17
Denny Crane
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I think you'd be mad c/f that flop against a limp call range in the fitz.
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Old 29-08-19, 15:27   #18
Murdrum
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In simplistic terms if we assume for arguments that the villains best sizing will be pot size on the flop then all we need is 33% equity to make a call break even, while only needing 25% in the case of half pot.

For example if we give the villain what I would call a pretty nutted range on this board A2s+, A5o+, Ks6s-KsJs, 66, 44 the hero still comes out with 34.2% equity so I can't understand how someone can advocate a c/f unless as I said that the bet sizing is quite unusual ie > 100% pot
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Old 29-08-19, 15:49   #19
Hectorjelly
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Originally Posted by Murdrum View Post
In simplistic terms if we assume for arguments that the villains best sizing will be pot size on the flop then all we need is 33% equity to make a call break even, while only needing 25% in the case of half
That's if villain is nice enough to promise not to bet for the rest of the hand.

The hand is clearly a bet on the flop - you have a huge range advantage, good equity and lowish showdown value. Everything points towards a bet being profitable as long as you follow through on later streets. Check call is ok but much tougher to play optimally. HOWEVER, that said these tournaments are not like real poker. I played hundreds of them over the years I worked there. The players are so likely to gift you their chips easily the best players should avoid all marginal spots, whatever you do don't run large bluffs against any but the tightest of the regs. They all overcall to a ridiculous degree, on every street.
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Old 29-08-19, 15:57   #20
Murdrum
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Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
That's if villain is nice enough to promise not to bet for the rest of the hand.

The hand is clearly a bet on the flop - you have a huge range advantage, good equity and lowish showdown value. Everything points towards a bet being profitable as long as you follow through on later streets. Check call is ok but much tougher to play optimally. HOWEVER, that said these tournaments are not like real poker. I played hundreds of them over the years I worked there. The players are so likely to gift you their chips easily the best players should avoid all marginal spots, whatever you do don't run large bluffs against any but the tightest of the regs. They all overcall to a ridiculous degree, on every street.
Well getting into realised equity is obviously a different matter, I dont imagine this is a spot you under realise your equity too often though, that said more often if you give up the betting lead.

I totally agree, these tourneys are not real life. My default position here tbh is probably check pre, I had a look last night and couldn't find a precise video/article but this is closeish I guess: https://redchippoker.com/raising-pre...imp-fest-pots/

As you see with KQo, it's not a snap raise even in position, my opinion is the primary error here was a pre flop raise, check pre should be default I think.
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