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    Weird spot 25 50

    Maniac fish is to my right. His 3bet stat must be over 80%. He has rebought about 5 times. He gets it in very light, but does fold to 4 bets sometimes (which tend to be shoves for some reason). So i'd say he gets in any good broadway cards/pairs, but isn't going to call all in for 100bbs with 45s.

    Tight player that has been kind of pissing me off has 200bbs. He raises to 1.50. We haven't tangled in about 24 hours. I don't really know how good he is, he may be just running well but he has won more than his fair share of pots vs me. I have no notes on him which means we didn't get to many showdowns.

    I'm in the small blind with aces. The maniac fish is on the BB. I don't know what he will do if I 3bet, but I know what he is likely to do if I flat call! Maniac has 100bbs.

    I flat call, he 3bets to 6 as expected, then the tight player calls. so about 18 in the pot. Fish has 95 bbs left, tighty has 194. I cover them both. How much do I make it?
    Last edited by Hectorjelly; 07-03-12, 04:03.

    #2
    Just to make the action clear

    Tight guy makes it 1.50

    I call on sb with aces.

    Maniac makes it 6 on BB. he has 94 big blinds left.

    Tight guy calls. He has 194 big blinds left.

    It's back to me. How much do I raise? I have them both covered.




    Cheers to bustamoves for pointing out I made a mistake
    Last edited by Hectorjelly; 07-03-12, 04:05.

    Comment


      #3
      i go for a bigger than normal raise here. i'd prob make it 32 happy in the knowledge that maniac fish is still gonna call or even better reshove. the reason i dont make it smaller is because i dont want to give potentially ok implied odds to tight guy should we make it say 24 and maniac calls and he overcalls with his pairs.
      the problem is our hand should be face up as a big premium pair to mr. tighty given our line so let him take poor odds to set mine with his pairs and or the opportunity to make a big mistake by reshoving with AK, KK, QQ

      i think maniac fish wont necessarily see our line as a reg would and so i think we can make it this big and know that he's been prone to call (and moreso since we havent shoved)

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
        the reason i dont make it smaller is because i dont want to give potentially ok implied odds to tight guy should we make it say 24 and maniac calls and he overcalls with his pairs.
        The manaic has been 3betting 80% of hands and getting it in light. I don't think'll he be flatting much. And will prob fold or 5bet.

        I'd keep the 4bet pretty normal in the hope that tight guy thinks he can isolate.
        PSB to 24 for me

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Mellor View Post
          The manaic has been 3betting 80% of hands and getting it in light. I don't think'll he be flatting much. And will prob fold or 5bet.

          I'd keep the 4bet pretty normal in the hope that tight guy thinks he can isolate.
          PSB to 24 for me
          I really don't think 3betting is good here. If I manage to shut out the fish it's a disaster. Playing aces out of position to a decent player 200bbs deep is not a very profitable spot to be in. I really, really want to keep the bad player in, and I also think that there is a far better chance of the tight player putting a lot of money in bad preflop when the maniac is involved.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Mellor View Post
            The manaic has been 3betting 80% of hands and getting it in light. I don't think'll he be flatting much. And will prob fold or 5bet.

            I'd keep the 4bet pretty normal in the hope that tight guy thinks he can isolate.
            PSB to 24 for me
            overcall/backraises in these conditions scream qq+ to anyone with half a clue which we assume mr. tighty will have and fish wont process either way.

            if we make it 24 and fish happens to flat mr.tighty has only 18 to call with the potential to stack both us and the fish. we're 200 and the fish is 100 and he can potentially get 17/1 on his call. this is far too good, we need to price him out by raising bigger pre IMO
            Last edited by bustamoves; 07-03-12, 05:31. Reason: 25/1 should have been 17/1

            Comment


              #7
              I really don't think 3betting is good here. If I manage to shut out the fish it's a disaster. Playing aces out of position to a decent player 200bbs deep is not a very profitable spot to be in. I really, really want to keep the bad player in, and I also think that there is a far better chance of the tight player putting a lot of money in bad preflop when the maniac is involved.
              I didn't suggest that we 3bet the tight player.

              Or did you mean 4betting. So you are suggesting a flat call here? Sorry if I'm not following you. It's 5pm, im nearly finished work and my brain is fried atm

              Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
              if we make it 24 and fish happens to flat mr.tighty has only 18 to call with the potential to stack both us and the fish. we're 200 and the fish is 100 and he can potentially get 17/1 on his call. this is far too good, we need to price him out by raising bigger pre IMO
              We don't want to prive him out. We have AA, we want his money in the pot

              Comment


                #8
                If I give the tight player 17:1 implied odds out of position with a very tight range it's him who is making a long profit not me.

                Comment


                  #9
                  make it 20 as it may still give the fish the illusion that you might fold to a shove. If he calls which I expect him to you could make a really gay bet on most flops e.g. 10 and then get the rest in on the turn where he will pretty much have to call with anything

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                    If I give the tight player 17:1 implied odds out of position with a very tight range it's him who is making a long profit not me.
                    Why at we saying 17/1 odds? The odds are 2/1 when we PSB. the max implied odds are 17/1, but saying we give him 17 is a bit over the top. That's only the case if the manaic always flats pre, and we always stack off to the tight player. And the maniac always stacks off also.

                    I still don't understand your point about not raising. That's offering significantly better odds. About 50/1

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I'd just bet a standard 4bet amount + an extra $3/$4 on top.
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                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                        make it 20 as it may still give the fish the illusion that you might fold to a shove. If he calls which I expect him to you could make a really gay bet on most flops e.g. 10 and then get the rest in on the turn where he will pretty much have to call with anything
                        This kind of play would prob work against the fish but the tighty (who has much more money) who has been playing with us regularily will know that this is a weird play and suspect something. Won't suspect us of spazzing out, will more likely put us on a tight range that's looking to hook the fish.

                        Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                        I still don't understand your point about not raising. That's offering significantly better odds. About 50/1
                        It's not just the odds that HJ is on about, it's the odds vs a tight range (I think). If we flat he's getting 50/1 or whatever but can't put us on any kind of range. With the fish in the BB we could be calling with anything from suited connectors up.

                        I'd mix between re-raising to $20ish and really hope for a shove from the BB and flatting and checking out the flop looking for a decent sized bet from the BB. If BB flats a re-raise and the BTN calls too we've a really awkward pot size of $60 with BTN playing just over $80. Looks like it'd have to be a open shove on the flop regardless. With a flat call and a flop bet from the BB we can't put the BTN on too much and will prob end up getting it in on most flops. In both scenarios we're just hoping that the BTN doesn't hit too hard, in the flat call one we're more likely to get all-in vs just top pair tho .

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by NuckChorris View Post
                          It's not just the odds that HJ is on about, it's the odds vs a tight range (I think). If we flat he's getting 50/1 or whatever but can't put us on any kind of range. With the fish in the BB we could be calling with anything from suited connectors up.
                          Yeah exactly, I'm not giving 50:1 implied odds if I just call preflop because my hand range is so wide - I can almost have any two cards. There is a significant advantage to having the best possible hand in my hand range, However, if I make a 3 bet my hand range becomes immediately very narrow. Tight guy can call and play a pot in position deep against someone with a very small range. If I was him I'd call with anything I raised with - Unless I make a huge 3bet, which is terrible with the maniac between us anyway.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I flatted the original raise and then just made it $50 to go (putting the maniac all in) when it came back to me (tighty just called the 3bet.) They both folded quickly. I was hoping the tight player might think I was isolating against the fish and make a loose call; maybe a smaller raise would be better? In all probability they both probably had pretty bad hands.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Don't really like the sizing. Even the fish is going to fold most of his hands there. I don't think a raise to 100bbs looks like an isolating raise at all.
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                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                I flatted the original raise and then just made it $50 to go (putting the maniac all in) when it came back to me (tighty just called the 3bet.) They both folded quickly. I was hoping the tight player might think I was isolating against the fish and make a loose call; maybe a smaller raise would be better? In all probability they both probably had pretty bad hands.
                                Hate that sizing. Fish has a huge range and you want to keep as much of that in as possible. Make it $20 or so.

                                You really shouldn't have been focusing on the tight player.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  I think you lost a decent amount of value by making it 50. What range are you repping?
                                  I still don't understand where 17/1 came from either. Still happy with $24, 20's good too

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                    I flatted the original raise and then just made it $50 to go (putting the maniac all in) when it came back to me (tighty just called the 3bet.) They both folded quickly. I was hoping the tight player might think I was isolating against the fish and make a loose call; maybe a smaller raise would be better? In all probability they both probably had pretty bad hands.
                                    Take my advice with a pinch of salt as I'm out of touch with NLH, that being said, I think there's good merits to making a smaller 3b size than your standard size, it won't really polarize your range and will often look like you're going for a cheap squeeze to try and isolate the maniac, I think a smaller than standard 3bet size has a better chance of achieving the desired results imo.

                                    We give them no room to get fancy or spazz out with a 4b shove.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Bozzer View Post
                                      Hate that sizing. Fish has a huge range and you want to keep as much of that in as possible. Make it $20 or so.

                                      You really shouldn't have been focusing on the tight player.
                                      I was more concerned with the tight player, I really didn't want to give him the correct implied odds to call. I hated my sizing too, which is why I posted the hand!

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                        I was more concerned with the tight player, I really didn't want to give him the correct implied odds to call. I hated my sizing too, which is why I posted the hand!
                                        so what is your verdict? sry if i missed it along the way but what do you think now was the optimal line/betsize etc how would u play it differently?

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                          I think you lost a decent amount of value by making it 50. What range are you repping?
                                          I still don't understand where 17/1 came from either. Still happy with $24, 20's good too
                                          i agree we lose a ton of value when we dont 4bet to somewhere in the range of 24 upwards to say 30 or 32.


                                          but what do you not get about the 17/1? we're talking 'potential' implied odds here, not actual. the actual implied odds always vary from hand to hand. in some hands it transpires to be 3/1 implied odds in others in transpires as 6/1, others 17/1. now as a general rule of thumb we're looking for around 20/1 implied odds (we should know its only 'potential') when we wanna set mine. the reason we look for 20/1 is because we already know villian doesnt always stack off and know we wont get anything like 20/1 actual return everytime but as long as we on average get more than 8/1 we'll make money overtime.

                                          so it's important we raise big so as to reduce those 'potential' implied odds to a point where it now becomes a poor long term propostion for mr. tighty to set mine with his pairs for e.g. or call with sc's

                                          20's good too[/QUOTE]

                                          needless to say....

                                          it think making 20 is bad and maybe even worse than making it 50
                                          Last edited by bustamoves; 09-03-12, 06:40.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                            so what is your verdict? sry if i missed it along the way but what do you think now was the optimal line/betsize etc how would u play it differently?
                                            I haven't had a chance to come back to this, it's pretty late so will do so tomorrow

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                              i agree we lose a ton of value when we dont 4bet to somewhere in the range of 24 upwards to say 30 or 32.


                                              but what do you not get about the 17/1? we're talking 'potential' implied odds here, not actual. the actual implied odds always vary from hand to hand. in some hands it transpires to be 3/1 implied odds in others in transpires as 6/1, others 17/1. now as a general rule of thumb we're looking for around 20/1 implied odds (we should know its only 'potential') when we wanna set mine. the reason we look for 20/1 is because we already know villian doesnt always stack off and know we wont get anything like 20/1 actual return everytime but as long as we on average get more than 8/1 we'll make money overtime.

                                              so it's important we raise big so as to reduce those 'potential' implied odds to a point where it now becomes a poor long term propostion for mr. tighty to set mine with his pairs for e.g. or call with sc's

                                              20's good too


                                              Yeah, I probably should have said that earlier. The deeper I am against a good player OOP, the more concerned I am with giving him implied odds. The thought of giving a decent player great odds in position here terrifies me, because I know how profitable it is for him long term.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                                but what do you not get about the 17/1? we're talking 'potential' implied odds here, not actual.
                                                I know what implied odds are. I get the concept.
                                                I'm asking how yoy got 17/1 when we make it 24
                                                BB has $50, tight player has $100. With $6 in already. Making it 24 means its 18 more. Max he can win is 156 (maybe a few $ over it either has a bit more)
                                                156/18 is just over 8.5/1. Thats his absolute max potential return. So I can't figure out this 17. Which is why I've asked a few times.

                                                Also if you make it 30 or 32 and BB shoves. It's an underraise. We can't reship. Now I don't think the other will flat half his stack often. It's a situation I want to avoid.

                                                it think making 20 is bad and maybe even worse than making it 100
                                                100 is basically shoving, how is that better than 20 or anything?
                                                20 > 32 imo


                                                Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                Yeah, I probably should have said that earlier. The deeper I am against a good player OOP, the more concerned I am with giving him implied odds. The thought of giving a decent player great odds in position here terrifies me, because I know how profitable it is for him long term.
                                                As above, the max return for him is 8.5, I don't think thats anything to be terrified of.
                                                Often it goes in preflop. When it doesn't we have roughly a pot sized bet left (when it's 24)
                                                I don't think he can make this profitable tbh

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                  I know what implied odds are. I get the concept.
                                                  I'm asking how yoy got 17/1 when we make it 24
                                                  BB has $50, tight player has $100. With $6 in already. Making it 24 means its 18 more. Max he can win is 156 (maybe a few $ over it either has a bit more)
                                                  156/18 is just over 8.5/1. Thats his absolute max potential return. So I can't figure out this 17. Which is why I've asked a few times.

                                                  Also if you make it 30 or 32 and BB shoves. It's an underraise. We can't reship. Now I don't think the other will flat half his stack often. It's a situation I want to avoid.


                                                  100 is basically shoving, how is that better than 20 or anything?
                                                  20 > 32 imo



                                                  As above, the max return for him is 8.5, I don't think thats anything to be terrified of.
                                                  Often it goes in preflop. When it doesn't we have roughly a pot sized bet left (when it's 24)
                                                  I don't think he can make this profitable tbh
                                                  obv a little confusion here that doesnt help

                                                  1. BB has 100 BBs (not $50-HJ clarified this immediately in the second post) and original raiser has 200BBs (that was pretty clear i would have thought)

                                                  2 I said raising to 20 was bad maybe even worse than raising to 50 as was the actual case in the hand (yes i originally typed 100 by mistake but i thought i had edited/corrected that pretty much straight away)

                                                  so hope that clears things up? Does it?

                                                  (btw, not being smart just genuinely asking because the original post was a bit confusiing and i had to PM HJ to edit it as i was confused myself)

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                                    obv a little confusion here that doesnt help

                                                    1. BB has 100 BBs (not $50-HJ clarified this immediately in the second post) and original raiser has 200BBs (that was pretty clear i would have thought)
                                                    Yeah I know BB has 100BBs, as you said that was pretty clear. But that changes nothing I've said though.

                                                    This hand is 25/50c so 100BBs is $50. (HJ made it $50 to put him in).
                                                    It says it in the title plus the initial raise was $1.50
                                                    Last edited by Mellor; 10-03-12, 03:48.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                      Yeah I know BB has 100BBs, as you said that was pretty clear. But that changes nothing I've said though.

                                                      This hand is 25/50c so 100BBs is $50. (HJ made it $50 to put him in).
                                                      It says it in the title plus the initial raise was $1.50
                                                      that changes everything, apologies

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