Could I get away?

[Ace is good]

Level 1 in a 10k starting stack tournament. Blinds 25/50
I have 8.3k in the cutoff and villain has 12k ish sitting immediately to my right.
I pick up 10 9 of clubs.
Villain limps, as do I, button raises to 200.
We both call
Flop 10 8 7 rainbow, one club. Pot 675
Villain bets 350, i call, button raises to 1100. We both call.
Turn Q clubs. Pot 3975
Villain bets 2.5k, i call, button folds
River 10. Pot 8975.
Villain bets 3k and I call leaving 1500 behind.


Question is could I have folded turn or river with my hand continuously picking up outs and is there a point I should have raised?

[NuckChorris]

Pre-flop and Turn are the places where you get away from this hand. Limp-calling with suited connectors is definitely not a great idea. I'm not against raising from the cut-off with this and then the hand plays differently. As played you have to drop the turn when he bets 2.5k. He's led the flop, called a re-raise and is leading out again. You have to know that top pair with 9 kicker is no good and that you're just looking for a straight, which is too long a shot for 2.5k.

[Caf]

Preflop: make it 200 or fold imo. As played I think it's a fold pre too since you are going to be oop with 9,10s.

Flop: call 350, fold to the reraise of 1100.

This hand shouldn't see past this stage, it's already gone too far imo. Just looks like spewing chips tbh.

I think you should edit your original post and delete the result of this hand as it shouldn't be shown.

You are looking for thoughts on the turn and river. Mind me asking what your thoughts were up to this stage?

[Raoul Duke III]

Pre-flop and Turn are the places where you get away from this hand. Limp-calling with suited connectors is definitely not a great idea. I'm not against raising from the cut-off with this and then the hand plays differently. As played you have to drop the turn when he bets 2.5k. He's led the flop, called a re-raise and is leading out again. You have to know that top pair with 9 kicker is no good and that you're just looking for a straight, which is too long a shot for 2.5k.

he's got the flush outs as well?

[Ace is good]

Pre flop once i've limped i wouldnt lay down decent suited c's for 150 into 450 pot
On the flop i'm confident the 8 straight outs are good plus a set of tens, when i call the 350 the pot is 1025 so i think the price is ok. following the button raise the pot is now 2875 and costing me 750 to get turn. I figure the button is having one shot at buying the pot and wont continue much further.
Turn i pick up a flush draw so now i'm thinking 17 outs maybe 15. Pot 6475 and calling 2.5, right at my limit but i figure if hit my 34/30% i get doubled up. I'm also not too worried about j 9 as believe flop would have been played differently.
Imo when i thought about it afterwards i could have folded the river as most hands are ahead of me

[NuckChorris]

he's got the flush outs as well?

Missed that, thx. Then it's a call. Valuetowned all the way once you get into the hand.

[Morihei]

It's the first level and you've already lost nearly 20% of your stack.

If you're gonna tilt off the rest, get'em in on the turn

BTW, don't listen to people who's default reply is 'fold preflop'. These kind of players only exist in these forums, you never see them at the table.

[paddyh1989]

I think its always better to raise than call imo.
Can we raise at some point post flop, flop or turn.
Pre flop not so bad imo but when you flop TP and oesd we have to play more aggro in general.
But i understand its early and maybe you dont want to gamble yet.
But when you call flop, u know your going to face a bet on turn.
if we raise maybe we can get free card to see river.

[DrJFF]

not fan of pre-flop as has been said,

much prefer to isolate in position 200-250,

once you've limped, i see no problem with seeing a cheap flop here,

on the flop is tricky cos you sandwiched between your opponents, you can raise the flop yourself but calling and deciding is probably better,

once you call the original bet and the button squeezes and the villian calls, you can't fold,

on the turn when he leads for 2.5k you really have to fold your not getting the price and any river you hit might get you into more trouble,

if i was to guess the villain's hand something like QT, 88's or 77's makes sense

[handofgod]

raise pre, once you limp calling is fine

flop looks good, I dont know why you figure btn is likely bluffing though

Turn is tricky, all our outs mighnt be good, btn is still to act and both villains have shown strength, I prob nit it up and fold

call river

[Ace is good]

Ah I don't think he's bluffing exactly just that his hand isnt strong enough against my draws. even an over pair i've 13 outs (bar jacks). I dont think he raises with j 9 when he can limp safely enough


Villain had 10 8 in the end

[handofgod]

I figure the button is having one shot at buying the pot and wont continue much further.

Ah I don't think he's bluffing exactly just that his hand isnt strong enough against my draws.

These seem to contradict each other.

If he has any idea what he is doing this is a very strong line on flop from btn imo, given that flop smacks the ranges of 2 limpcallers pre and there is a bet and call in front of him. Obv he could just be some monkey randomly clicking buttons though

[kincsem]

I'm not going to comment on the play of the hand, just what I do with suited connectors.

When I play suited connectors I mostly play 45, 56, 67, 78, JQ, QK, KA. I avoid A2s, 23s, 34s, 89s, 9Ts, TJs. JQs is also not a favourite.

The reason I avoid 89s, 9Ts, TJs is you are often against players playing high cards and you get outkicked. People come into a hand with high cards.

If you hit two pair you are often against an open-ended straight that will see all five cards. If you have straight or flush draws the board will tell your opponent you are drawing and he/she will make it expensive. I play TJo more often than TJs because I don't play it for the flush possibilities.

You can get in cheaply with suited connectors but they become chip burners as you try to fill a straight or flush.

[Hectorjelly]

I'm not going to comment on the play of the hand, just what I do with suited connectors.

When I play suited connectors I mostly play 45, 56, 67, 78, JQ, QK, KA. I avoid A2s, 23s, 34s, 89s, 9Ts, TJs. JQs is also not a favourite.

The reason I avoid 89s, 9Ts, TJs is you are often against players playing high cards and you get outkicked. People come into a hand with high cards.

If you hit two pair you are often against an open-ended straight that will see all five cards. If you have straight or flush draws the board will tell your opponent you are drawing and he/she will make it expensive. I play TJo more often than TJs because I don't play it for the flush possibilities.

You can get in cheaply with suited connectors but they become chip burners as you try to fill a straight or flush.

There's a few things really wrong here, but some good points.

bad ones:
1) Tjs is much better than Tjo. More chance of hitting a flush is a good thing. If you play TJo in situations where you wouldn't play TJs you are going seriously wrong

2) A2s is a super hand, it dominates all other flush draws

[kincsem]

I understand points (1) and (2) but the extra value of the suitedness is overrated imo. JTs is nice but its obvious when you flop a draw.

With A2s you are only good for the flush, and you must complete it. If an ace flops you are hoping for a split. Even a magic 345 flop could be dangerous. An A2X flop and you could be easily counterfeited.

I think you can dig a hole for yourself with 89s, 9Ts, and possibly JTs. They are better than the unsuited connectors but you might chase and burn chips.

The reason I play JTo is it is easier to get away from it.

[Hectorjelly]

I understand points (1) and (2) but the extra value of the suitedness is overrated imo. JTs is nice but its obvious when you flop a draw.

Depending on the situation there is about a 4% difference between TJo and Tjs (obv this isn't a perfect way of looking at it, but its close). Over time if you are deliberately choosing the worst hand you are compounding the error. I was polite as I could be in the first post, but its actually terrible poker. HOWEVER, most people do overvalue TJs, but then they overvalue TJo as well. TJs gives you plenty more bluffing/folding equity as well.

With A2s you are only good for the flush, and you must complete it. If an ace flops you are hoping for a split. Even a magic 345 flop could be dangerous. An A2X flop and you could be easily counterfeited.

This is just nonsense, if an ace flops you hope your opponent doesn't have one - the key to being good at poker is working out if he does or not! Axs in any type of deep game is a very powerful hand, far more so than other suited connectors. Draws to the nuts are very powerful.

I think you can dig a hole for yourself with 89s, 9Ts, and possibly JTs. They are better than the unsuited connectors but you might chase and burn chips.

Yes I agree, especially in tournaments most people overplay speculative hands. That doesn't mean you should play them incorrectly though

The reason I play JTo is it is easier to get away from it.

It's easier to get away from 82o than Aces

[cardshark202]

Preflop is actually alright here, given the stack depth and your position. I much prefer iso raising myself, but its okay to limp behind occasionally in a tournament like this.

As for post flop, barring any reads I think you have to fold the turn without position at least

[Hectorjelly]

As for post flop, barring any reads I think you have to fold the turn without position at least

With a pair, flush draw and oesd?

[digiman]

What about donking the turn with plan of shipping the river or else CRAI on turn? I would rather take a more aggressive line on nearly every street here.

[Morihei]

1) Tjs is much better than Tjo. More chance of hitting a flush is a good thing. If you play TJo in situations where you wouldn't play TJs you are going seriously wrong

I think he's saying he plays the off suit TJ more frequently because it occurs more frequently! Could be wrong though.

I go bust on the turn here... Just can't get the gamble out of my game

[Jackyback]

What about donking the turn with plan of shipping the river or else CRAI on turn? I would rather take a more aggressive line on nearly every street here.

I sometimes like the CRAI on the turn as it sometimes folds out better and worst case we get all the loots in with decent equity.

[AndyFatBastard]

What about donking the turn with plan of shipping the river or else CRAI on turn? I would rather take a more aggressive line on nearly every street here.

We're in position, but yeah nothing wrong with shoving the turn when he leads out again IMO. Yes there are a lot of worse hands folding, but there's also plenty of better hands folding and worse hands calling. And as jackyback says we have a horde of outs when we're called by a better hand.

Oh and we have a blocker to our opponent's potential gutshot to add an extra 1% or so.

[blaaaaaaah]

Your limp along is fine no worries there as you have a hand that plays well in multi-way pots,also as you have lost some of your stack in previous pots you will loose some respect from other players at the table n will call u down lighter...trust me I see this all the time!

On the flop your call to the reraise on the flop is just a bad play like sure your odds are decent to hit your straight but you have zero chance of ever been paid off by either player because your hit straight would be so obvious to both players! Plus whats stopping the straight already been made by one of your opponents which makes your call even worse as you can only spilt the pot! IT'S JUST TROUBLE and that's exactly what your trying to avoid in early stages of a tourny!!

As for the turn you have picked up a flush draw yes but it's only a call if your straight cards are indeed going to give you the best hand other than that your putting in 2.5k just on a flush draw...how does it sound now???.....lol

So yes you could have got away and I believe on the flop to the reraise is your exit point from this hand!

[NuckChorris]

Nice post!

Your limp along is fine no worries there as you have a hand that plays well in multi-way pots,also as you have lost some of your stack in previous pots you will loose some respect from other players at the table n will call u down lighter...trust me I see this all the time!

On the flop your call to the reraise on the flop is just a bad play like sure your odds are decent to hit your straight but you have zero chance of ever been paid off by either player because your hit straight would be so obvious to both players! Plus whats stopping the straight already been made by one of your opponents which makes your call even worse as you can only spilt the pot! IT'S JUST TROUBLE and that's exactly what your trying to avoid in early stages of a tourny!!

As for the turn you have picked up a flush draw yes but it's only a call if your straight cards are indeed going to give you the best hand other than that your putting in 2.5k just on a flush draw...how does it sound now???.....lol

So yes you could have got away and I believe on the flop to the reraise is your exit point from this hand!

[blaaaaaaah]

Cheers mate appreciate that!!

[Moneymaker]

Yeah I agree with above, the flop is where the real mess is. Pre-flop is fine in this game imo, with a full stack i'd be raising but with only 8k limping behind is ok.

As played I would(begrudgingly) fold the turn, you don't have the price or the stack to be calling here.

I fold the river too, you can't beat anything if the villain is value betting, and it's never a bluff so save yourself 3k and fold. You need to be able to let hands like these go and not waste valuable chips.

[handofgod]

On the flop your call to the reraise on the flop is just a bad play like sure your odds are decent to hit your straight but you have zero chance of ever been paid off by either player because your hit straight would be so obvious to both players! Plus whats stopping the straight already been made by one of your opponents which makes your call even worse as you can only spilt the pot! IT'S JUST TROUBLE and that's exactly what your trying to avoid in early stages of a tourny!!

As for the turn you have picked up a flush draw yes but it's only a call if your straight cards are indeed going to give you the best hand other than that your putting in 2.5k just on a flush draw...how does it sound now???.....lol

So yes you could have got away and I believe on the flop to the reraise is your exit point from this hand!

your opponents sometimes have the made straight on flop, but not very often. Also I dont agree that you are never getting paid off if you hit a straight, you need very little implied odds to call flop raise and I think its ok to call. As for avoiding trouble, thats fine but we have to try build a stack too, and we cant just assume its likely one of villains already has us drawing nearly dead

Again on the turn its quite likely your straight outs are good, although I prob fold with btn still to act and the strength he has shown so far

[blaaaaaaah]

your opponents sometimes have the made straight on flop, but not very often. Also I dont agree that you are never getting paid off if you hit a straight, you need very little implied odds to call flop raise and I think its ok to call. As for avoiding trouble, thats fine but we have to try build a stack too, and we cant just assume its likely one of villains already has us drawing nearly dead

Again on the turn its quite likely your straight outs are good, although I prob fold with btn still to act and the strength he has shown so far

Ye I see your point, how about this doh sure he doesn't have the made straight alot but he does have a set alot of the time here and even if you make your obvious straight you have to avoid a redraw on top of that!!

Like so many better spots in a tourny early to accumulate chips... loads of fish in a tourny early hence betting top pair on all 3 streets n been called down thats an easy chip up and they do exist everywhere in early stages... many other spots also where you can apply the pressure rather than calling off your stack trying to hit in this instance!

[kincsem]

"Hands like JTs must make a straight, two pair, or possibly a full house to make any serious money. Even a flush with this hand is in jeapordy of losing to a higher flush. If you flop top pair, you may just get into more trouble especially if you lack experience in these situations. Those writers who have called this the best hand, even in full games, are out of their minds!"

"The first two cards
In general then, I use six interrelated criteria in formulating these rankings:
1. What are the chances of making the best hand?
2. What are the chances of making a flush?
3. What are the chances of making a straight?
4. What are the chances of flopping top pair?
5. What are the chances of making a hand that figures to win a big pot?
6. What are the chances of making a hand that might well just lose money since it will be second best?
This last criteria is very important.
All in all, what we are considering are which hands have the best chance of flopping cards that will show the most profit."

[Hectorjelly]

Wow that's tilting. Would you rather have a flush or not have one? Because if you follow your logic you'd rather not have one.

[kincsem]

My post above is in quotes because its straight from Sklansky (I know he didn't win the WSOP).

What you guys are missing / ignoring is what the opening poster did and what many people do. He kept getting more outs, straight and flush, and he ended up with most of his chips in the middle, and his tournament on the line. Thats why I don't go overboard with hands like TJs.

Yeah TJs is better than TJo if you go all-in preflop. You have a better chance of a flush. That is the only extra. But this isn't an all-in pre-flop, it is death by calling off most of your stack because you are chasing straight and flush draws and have a poor pair.

If that thinking tilts you then I hope to meet you at the tables. I was in the Westbury €350 last weekend (100 signed up; only 36 showed), and I'll be in the €550 in Killarney at the end of the month to receive lessons.

[DAMO72]

My post above is in quotes because its straight from Sklansky (I know he didn't win the WSOP).

What you guys are missing / ignoring is what the opening poster did and what many people do. He kept getting more outs, straight and flush, and he ended up with most of his chips in the middle, and his tournament on the line. Thats why I don't go overboard with hands like TJs.

Yeah TJs is better than TJo if you go all-in preflop. You have a better chance of a flush. That is the only extra. But this isn't an all-in pre-flop, it is death by calling off most of your stack because you are chasing straight and flush draws and have a poor pair.

If that thinking tilts you then I hope to meet you at the tables. I was in the Westbury €350 last weekend (100 signed up; only 36 showed), and I'll be in the €550 in Killarney at the end of the month to receive lessons.

I dont think you need any lessons Sean, sure we have trophy's to prove otherwise.