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KJo - K on the flop - facing an all in raise

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    KJo - K on the flop - facing an all in raise

    Pub donkament. Atrocious standard of play. I mean seriously bad. Almost every hand has a lot of limpers seeing the flop. I have generally opened with a raise, but have also been able to see flops from early position for a BB about 80% of the time.

    First hand of final table and I have not been playing with villain. He looks like he is probably one of the better players remaining (not saying much) but I can't be sure. My guess is that he would think the same about me (also not saying much).

    9 remain. We both have about 10k which is the average stack. Blinds 300/600.

    I'm UTG+1 and get KJo. I decide to limp (see above). Villain to my immediate left calls and there is 1 other caller plus the blinds so 5 players see the flop with 3,000 in the pot.

    Flop comes K72 rainbow.

    Check, check and I bet 1500.

    Villain fairly quickly goes all in.

    It's folded round to me.....

    #2
    fold preflop and fold now

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
      fold preflop and fold now
      as played, I'd call this pretty quick in a pub shovefest
      "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

      Comment


        #4
        Fold pre. I can't emphasise this enough. You caught one of the better flops for your hand and you still don't know what to do when heat is put on you.

        I'd call now though. Pub donkfest, they can show up with any old rubbish.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Moneymaker View Post
          Fold pre. I can't emphasise this enough.
          ... the fact that I am going to see a 4+way flop for a limp well over half the time doesn't tone down your emphasis at all?

          You're probably right, and I know that I am running myself into exactly the type of situation I did run into, but it seems to me that a lot of the time the play is +EV in these circumstances

          Let me put it another way... what is your strategy for early (or any) position in a tournament where so many flops can be seen with a limp?
          Last edited by EssEll; 27-07-10, 10:05.

          Comment


            #6
            I rarely / never open limp.

            If I'm the first person into a pot, I like to open it, 1500 would be a good size in this spot.

            However, I'm probably folding here pre.

            Comment


              #7
              Hi Ess...

              Just a snip from probably the best player in Ireland's well...

              Q: Biggest leaks you find players have in online/live poker?

              A: -Live players limp too much and get involved in pots for the wrong reasons(they often do it to get a rush of serotonin and to alleviate stress).

              It could not be more true...
              Limping is bad in general...with that hand, UTG, it's a nono.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by sickhabbit View Post
                Hi Ess...

                Just a snip from probably the best player in Ireland's well...
                oldjude?

                Comment


                  #9
                  You really have to fold pre flop. You have a pretty bad hand and a hand that you don't want multi way action with.

                  As played i call very quickly.

                  With your stack(10k) you should be playing position pretty hard, opening to 1500 and taking down the money pre. You should be looking to isolate bad players. If there are a few limpers and you find KJ on the button then by all means make it 2200 or so and play a pot in position with players who are most likely going to limp/fold and check/fold alot.

                  When you limp with KJ from UTG into a pot, what are you looking for exactly??

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Fold pre and flop is horrible spot but it's a fold IMO

                    I hate limping. If a hand is worth playing it's worth raising. You take control of the pot and find out were you are pretty quickly. Limping in with marginal hands to try outplay donkeys is going to put you in so many tough spots. The key to beating them is waiting and waiting some more until you have them crushed. Most of them won't take into account that you haven't played the last two hours and they happily get the loot in light.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      There's (usualy) a massive difference in playing poker in a pub and a casino. In a casino you can have a wide range of abilities and a lot of the players will have read a few books and watched a few vids and think they know how to play so will be aggressive-ish (usually in the wrong spots and this is what we have to exploit).

                      In a pub the vast majority of players or loose passive and so this is what we have to overcome. Obv in a decent structure tourney this is super easy but usually a landlord will want the tourney to finish at a certain time and not really have a care for giving the players time to play. This means we have to pick up hands and be aggressive with them but we can't let ourselves open our range to that of our opponents. Let them be the ones who limp-call us with KJ when we have KQ/AK/AJ.

                      When I play these tournies and happen to get shortstacked I start shoving. The rest of the field can't understand why you keep doing it and will happily limp when they only have 8bbs behind. The reason I am doing is because no matter how much of an edge I have it's gone when we are this short and so I'm giving myself the best chance I can to win the tourney.
                      Pining for Wa'erford

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by EssEll View Post
                        ... the fact that I am going to see a 4+way flop for a limp well over half the time doesn't tone down your emphasis at all?

                        You're probably right, and I know that I am running myself into exactly the type of situation I did run into, but it seems to me that a lot of the time the play is +EV in these circumstances

                        Let me put it another way... what is your strategy for early (or any) position in a tournament where so many flops can be seen with a limp?
                        Seeing a flop 4-way, out of position with KJo, a hand with massive reverse implied odds, is about the last situation I want to find myself in.

                        By all means, if you pick up the 45s, 33 or whatever on the button and a few players have limped in, then by all means hop on the limp train. Those kind of hands are hands that play very well in a multi-way pot in position.

                        As a general rule, I will limp into pots with those kind of hands in position, but if I am opening a pot, I will always raise or fold. KJo is an automatic fold in early position, 99 times out of 100.
                        Last edited by Moneymaker; 27-07-10, 12:27.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          This is one of those "I'm the villain" situations....

                          I called the opening limp with KTh <??> and shoved his 1500 bet <??>

                          The hero called my shove with his KJo after thinking for a while.

                          Who fcked it up worse - me or him?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Moneymaker View Post
                            Seeing a flop 4-way, out of position with KJo, a hand with massive reverse implied odds, is about the last situation I want to find myself in.

                            By all means, if you pick up the 45s, 33 or whatever on the button and a few players have limped in, then by all means hop on the limp train. Those kind of hands are hands that play very well in a multi-way pot in position.

                            As a general rule, I will limp into pots with those kind of hands in position, but if I am opening a pot, I will always raise or fold. KJo is an automatic fold in early position, 99 times out of 100.
                            Thanks... I like.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by EssEll View Post
                              This is one of those "I'm the villain" situations....

                              I called the opening limp with KTh <??> and shoved his 1500 bet <??>

                              The hero called my shove with his KJo after thinking for a while.

                              Who fcked it up worse - me or him?
                              Why did you shove?

                              Did you think you had the best hand and were getting paid by worse?
                              (K9,K8)?
                              Or were you trying to get a better hand to fold?

                              I don't like any of the play from anyone here, your overlimp is probably okish, but you should just call his flop bet

                              Comment


                                #16
                                KJ is a puke hand. Fold.
                                Carl Sagan - Pale Blue Dot

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  openlimping with KJ in early position sucks, you c/f most flops and have to fold pre if raised. You have less than 15bbs, dont waste 7% of your stack. Its a fold for me, although there may be some merit in shoving

                                  calling with KT with 6 left to act is atrocious imo, for same reasons as above only your hand is even weaker. As played just flat flop its a dry board and there are 3 people left to act and if they raise (or call flop if you shove ) you are toast

                                  Also with the shallow stacks you have here you have very little implied odds with any hand, and limping ip with a hand like 45s is bad in this situation imho.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by emmet02 View Post
                                    Why did you shove?

                                    Did you think you had the best hand and were getting paid by worse?
                                    (K9,K8)?
                                    Or were you trying to get a better hand to fold?

                                    I don't like any of the play from anyone here, your overlimp is probably okish, but you should just call his flop bet
                                    Yeah that's what I thought when I went through the hand in my head...

                                    My logic for shoving at the time was (1) I probably have the best hand against the sort of range that he cbets with (2) if I called there would probably be one other caller if not two (that's the way the game was playing) and I didn't want to play on esp. against multiple opponents, so I wanted to raise. (3) I was too shallow to put in a standard raise so all in was the best option.

                                    I know there are several flaws in this... but the biggest one (imo) was that I should have played more cautiously and waited for more clear cut opportunities at what was a very easy table even for a donk like me

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      What hands are you afraid of calling behind you?

                                      its one of the dryest boards there are, no FDs, low board other than the K.

                                      You want players to call behind you with 78s and 67s and other hands like this. You are way ahead of their range.

                                      However, by shoving you are in a world of hurt, because you are now hoping to get him to fold when you think you have the best hand, surely this looks wrong to you?

                                      There are almost no hands that will call your shove that you beat. Thus - you are bluffing.

                                      Why are you bluffing with a hand you think is best?

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by emmet02 View Post
                                        What hands are you afraid of calling behind you?

                                        its one of the dryest boards there are, no FDs, low board other than the K.

                                        You want players to call behind you with 78s and 67s and other hands like this. You are way ahead of their range.

                                        However, by shoving you are in a world of hurt, because you are now hoping to get him to fold when you think you have the best hand, surely this looks wrong to you?

                                        There are almost no hands that will call your shove that you beat. Thus - you are bluffing.

                                        Why are you bluffing with a hand you think is best?
                                        Yes, good, I get it... this is the thinking that I was 'scratching the surface of' when I reflected on the hand later.

                                        On reflection, though there was a spade FD on the flop which probably affected my thinking (I recall this now so mis-stated the hand in the OP, sorry)...

                                        Nevertheless, when I asked myself afterwards why I shoved my answer was vague and I felt it didn't really make sense... it was really just a bit panicked. I presume that the FD makes too small a difference?

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by handofgod View Post
                                          Also with the shallow stacks you have here you have very little implied odds with any hand, and limping ip with a hand like 45s is bad in this situation imho.
                                          I was more referring to 50-100bbs stacks early on in a donkament.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Moneymaker View Post
                                            I was more referring to 50-100bbs stacks early on in a donkament.
                                            Yeah I thought you probably were. Just thread was about shallow stack situation, so felt it was a bit confusing maybe.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Yeah just fold pre. Call now. Ul if he has a better hand.
                                              Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by EssEll View Post
                                                Pub donkament. Atrocious standard of play. I mean seriously bad. Almost every hand has a lot of limpers seeing the flop. I have generally opened with a raise, but have also been able to see flops from early position for a BB about 80% of the time.

                                                First hand of final table and I have not been playing with villain. He looks like he is probably one of the better players remaining (not saying much) but I can't be sure. My guess is that he would think the same about me (also not saying much).

                                                9 remain. We both have about 10k which is the average stack. Blinds 300/600.

                                                I'm UTG+1 and get KJo. I decide to limp (see above). Villain to my immediate left calls and there is 1 other caller plus the blinds so 5 players see the flop with 3,000 in the pot.

                                                Flop comes K72 rainbow.

                                                Check, check and I bet 1500.

                                                Villain fairly quickly goes all in.

                                                It's folded round to me.....
                                                Every time someone open limps at this stage of the game it makes the baby jesus cry!

                                                Snap fold, you have 2100 invested, let it go, raisin to 1500 pre would have worked wonders for you in this hand

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  everything you have done is terrible. you are finished as a poker player.

                                                  gone.gone.gone.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Since Rory brought it up.

                                                    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EprGnEjm2oE[/ame]

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