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    reccurring problem late in tournies

    Bit of a silly thing that should be easily fixed .

    I have began noticing a trend in myself lately both in live (€500-600 ftw) and online SNG (180mans) that when i get down to 3 or 4 handed and the business end of tournaments,
    I tend to be overly aggro even for shorthanded almost nonchalant in my play . This has resulted in alot of 3rd and 2nd place finishes recently which with a bit of patience and cleverness i feel i could have scooped. Instead i dive head first in there with very marginal holdings . Gambling Tony takes over from poker player Tony .

    Its like ive made decent profit already for the game and the rest is just a bonus mindset. Sounds like an easy thing to address but I was thinking about it a few nights ago but proceeded to spunk off a good stack and finish 3rd in a 12 dollar 180 man again .

    Calling all ins with the likes of K9 / A3 which are fairly strong hands 3/4 handed . Am I alone in this ? Any thoughts/ tips/ expieriences ?
    You got to have a lot of balls, to play golf the way I do!

    #2
    Originally posted by Tony3004 View Post
    Bit of a silly thing that should be easily fixed .

    I have began noticing a trend in myself lately both in live (€500-600 ftw) and online SNG (180mans) that when i get down to 3 or 4 handed and the business end of tournaments,
    I tend to be overly aggro even for shorthanded almost nonchalant in my play . This has resulted in alot of 3rd and 2nd place finishes recently which with a bit of patience and cleverness i feel i could have scooped. Instead i dive head first in there with very marginal holdings . Gambling Tony takes over from poker player Tony .

    Its like ive made decent profit already for the game and the rest is just a bonus mindset. Sounds like an easy thing to address but I was thinking about it a few nights ago but proceeded to spunk off a good stack and finish 3rd in a 12 dollar 180 man again .

    Calling all ins with the likes of K9 / A3 which are fairly strong hands 3/4 handed . Am I alone in this ? Any thoughts/ tips/ expieriences ?
    Being aggro is generally OK, but calling it off with k9/a3 generally isn't. I dont see how the two can get mixed though

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      #3
      Its variance down to the last 3 in the 180s. are you shoving the button with a wide enough range so that you dont drop to a small stack that the other players will race you light and end up outdrawing you? you have to maintain a stack with fold equity at that stage. you get to the last 3 much in those turbos?

      Comment


        #4
        You should be raising light but calling tight.
        "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by AndyFB View Post
          You should be raising light but calling tight.
          just to expand on this point you should use the nash equilibrium for raising/calling at the business end of tournies.

          lets say we are 3 handed the following chart is mathimatically +EV for pushing (top graph) and calling (bottom graph) your button / SB with


          the numbers indicate how many big blinds are in the villains stack

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            #6
            Originally posted by Multidraw View Post
            Its variance down to the last 3 in the 180s. are you shoving the button with a wide enough range so that you dont drop to a small stack that the other players will race you light and end up outdrawing you? you have to maintain a stack with fold equity at that stage. you get to the last 3 much in those turbos?
            was mainly playing the 4 dollar non-turbos and have a decent ROI in them . mixing in some 12s turbo lately and have made final three 3 times in these but failed to convert any into wins . I call off because i know what guys are pushing with and assuming im marginally ahead with K high etc and willing to roll with it .
            You got to have a lot of balls, to play golf the way I do!

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
              just to expand on this point you should use the nash equilibrium for raising/calling at the business end of tournies.

              lets say we are 3 handed the following chart is mathimatically +EV for pushing (top graph) and calling (bottom graph) your button / SB with


              the numbers indicate how many big blinds are in the villains stack
              How does this work if the other player isn't calling or jamming optimally according to the NE?

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Tony3004 View Post
                was mainly playing the 4 dollar non-turbos and have a decent ROI in them . mixing in some 12s turbo lately and have made final three 3 times in these but failed to convert any into wins . I call off because i know what guys are pushing with and assuming im marginally ahead with K high etc and willing to roll with it .
                If they are shoving this light and you have a decent stack you can surely afford to fold. The minimum I would be calling it off with if I had a decent enough stack would be KQ as you can get it in in so many ways dominating the villain.

                Obv my shoving/raising range is much wider than this..basically the gao theory
                Pining for Wa'erford

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by AndyFB View Post
                  You should be raising light but calling tight.
                  bingo.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Interesting reading relating to this topic.

                    twitter
                    moneybookers

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by BallymoreChris View Post
                      Interesting reading relating to this topic.

                      http://www.chillin411.com/node/7
                      I really dislike the example they use of the AK vs QQ, whilst it is true does anyone fold QQ in that spot?? Is ICM not more useful for marginal spots altho i rarely play sngs

                      Comment


                        #12
                        This may sound strange, but there are reasons for this. First off, this is assuming that you know your opponent is playing AK exactly. Of course he could make this push with a wider variety of hands, and that could (and most likely would) make it a callable all-in. However, the main idea is that you do not want to be taking risks and calling off your chips (note the emphasis on calling) with three players remaining. You don't want to risk calling into races, mostly because of the small increase from third to second place. This is contradictory to the style of most players, who are thrilled that they just made the money, and are willing to take risks, loosely calling all-ins after playing tight on the bubble, in hopes of getting lucky and possibly winning first place.

                        me in a nutshell.. good read
                        You got to have a lot of balls, to play golf the way I do!

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                          the numbers indicate how many big blinds are in the villains stack

                          I disagree that calling 20BB shoves with 33 is profitable
                          Originally posted by ghostface ste View Post
                          I really dislike the example they use of the AK vs QQ, whilst it is true does anyone fold QQ in that spot?? Is ICM not more useful for marginal spots altho i rarely play sngs
                          You missed the point, obv QQ is not a fold, as we can't put the villian on AK only. The point is to illustrate the idea of ICM, if we could stick him on AK, or he exposed his hand, then it is a fold, even though we are ahead

                          Comment


                            #14
                            How much of a sample size have you played? This just sounds like variance to me. Start posting hands and looking for advice rather than going over general situations in your head.
                            It's all an illusion

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Track your poker statistics and avoid the sharks. SharkScope is the most complete database of poker tournament results available and covers virtually all online poker sites.


                              my sng graph. 1800 + majority of these are within last year . more than half are 180s . been playin for a good few years but never really gave online a good go. posting hands is something i always say i will do but never do . must start doing it.
                              You got to have a lot of balls, to play golf the way I do!

                              Comment


                                #16
                                That link actually only brings me to sharkscope's homepage. If you want to post or pm me your SN I'll have a look but I reckon your game will advance just by posting hands that are giving you trouble etc and going over other folks hands from the same SnG strcutures. I'm sure there's plenty here that can give advice on them. Also, check out 2p2's mtt forum as there are plenty of 90/180-man regs that post there.
                                It's all an illusion

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  I had a gander on sharkscope using the filters...



                                  The 1st stat is your overall SnG results.
                                  The 2nd stat is just 180-mans and is impressive enough imo.
                                  The 2 below that are turbo and normal speed 180-mans.
                                  The bottom 2 are 45 and 90-man.
                                  The graphs are easy enough to work out.

                                  Didn't bother checking others and I realize that it's a small enough sample size but it's pretty clear that you should be sticking to the 180-mans, both normal and turbo. Cant argue with a 3 figure ROI after 622 games imo. You should be a winnig player playing all types of SnG's imo but whether it's variance or whatever idk. I noticed you've a lot of early exits in the 45-mans so maybe you are messing about too much when you should be playing super tight early on. At the end of the day, it's a small enough sample size but good enough to give an idea that you should stick to the 180-man(and prob put more volume into the 90-mans too as they're very alike). Just get posting hands that you feel you are having difficulty with or spots you are not sure what to do at the time. If you're not using a tracker(ie Holdem Manager), you shoud be!
                                  Last edited by 72over; 27-07-10, 00:35.
                                  It's all an illusion

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Thanks for taking the time to do this. Gonna try play 180s only for the coming 3 weeks and see how i get on with no spewage in the MTTs or other
                                    You got to have a lot of balls, to play golf the way I do!

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Nice stats Tony. WP in general. Hope the mini down swing ends soon. Post some hands as 72 said and please take some time out to help the rest of us from time to time.
                                      Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Tony3004 View Post
                                        ICalling all ins with the likes of K9 / A3 which are fairly strong hands 3/4 handed . Am I alone in this ? Any thoughts/ tips/ expieriences ?
                                        I'd be calling shoves a lot with ranges like this at the end-game of a tournament. In fact any Ace or King in my hand, it's going to be close, especially if the villain is a winning player (OPR them). A lot of the time I'm correct to do so as well and although the edge might not be massive, I'm still willing to go with it.

                                        Obviously stack sizes and reads play a massive part, but I wouldn't say that you are playing incorrectly by making magrinal calls like this.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          calling with Ax is fine against lots of players in shortstacked situations

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            +1

                                            Not calling marginally enough in the late stages is actually a huge leak for a lot of "solid" players...

                                            Edit: except when ICM dictates you should be calling much tighter, obv.

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