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    GUKPT Final Table hand

    OK we are 6 handed. Blinds are 1200/2400/300. 6th place gets £1550, 5th gets £1900, there's £9k for first.

    Villian is an aggro internet player. He's been doing a lot of bluffing and 3betting light and been mostly getting away with it. He's chipped up massively on this FT and is now the CL with ~150k.

    I have 120k, and the other players all have between 40 and 60k chips. So right now it's between me and villian.

    Tight player opens UTG+1 for 4200.
    Another tight player flat calls in MP.
    Villian OTB, who I'm totally expecting a 3bet from, announces All In. I look down at AKo in the SB...
    "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

    #2
    I fold.

    No need to get involved here I don't think, not with 3 players in the hand, you can probably guess that at least one of your aces is in someone else's hand here, and one of these guys can well have a PP.

    Player in MP should be expecting the squeeze from the BTN if he is as aggro as it sounds, and could well be flatting here with a monster.

    What do you think BTN's range is for a shove there vs 2 players? ATo+ 77+? Or is it tighter/looser?

    ICM probably says its a fold too, as you really would be flipping vs his range when you are very comfortable in chips.

    Comment


      #3
      I snap call so hard I leave fire marks on the felt similar to that of the Delorian in Back to the Future.

      You have his range crushed here IMO. Put the chips over the line and take down the tournie with ease

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
        I snap call so hard I leave fire marks on the felt similar to that of the Delorian in Back to the Future.

        You have his range crushed here IMO. Put the chips over the line and take down the tournie with ease
        effective stacks are 50bbs, this is a huge shove by the BTN, and is for our tournament life, We have a very big stack at this end of a tournament, and I don't think we should be gambling here this deep.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by emmet02 View Post
          effective stacks are 50bbs, this is a huge shove by the BTN, and is for our tournament life, We have a very big stack at this end of a tournament, and I don't think we should be gambling here this deep.
          Im happy to get it in - the BTN knows what he is doing i.e. putting pressure on the smaller stacks who may be looking to move up the pay ladder. he is rarely doing this with AA/KK. At the very least we are flipping and a good percentage of the time we have him dominated.

          choo choo use your one time and ship it in

          Comment


            #6
            actually dont know why there is discussion here.

            Im all in.

            Comment


              #7
              I'm all-in thank you.

              Comment


                #8
                With 3 shows of strength before me I'm folding AK here.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Fold for me.
                  Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                    actually dont know why there is discussion here.

                    Im all in.
                    There's discussion because of what Emmett02 said. For a start, do I want to flip with this guy? ICM has got to say it's close.

                    What do you think BTN's range is for a shove there vs 2 players? ATo+ 77+? Or is it tighter/looser?
                    I'd say he's 3betting looser than that. At the dinner break he described a hand in which he 3bet 22 and a massive nit open folded AQo.
                    "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Open must have been for more because he didnt even min raise, cant believe no-one else noticed that, you lot suck at reading hands.
                      Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                      I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                      None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Yes it would have been 6k. Doesn't change much about the hand. A 30k raise from button would have been plenty to commit the other two but leave him room to fold if I shoved, yet he still went all in. What does this say about his range?
                        "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I presume if hes competent he is aware of his image and he isnt sticking in his tank too light here.

                          I definitely dont want to flip vs him here when we are in such a good position stacks wise.

                          All depends if you think stuff like AQ, AJ and AT are in his range or not.
                          Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                          I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                          None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by AndyFB View Post
                            OK we are 6 handed. Blinds are 1200/2400/300. 6th place gets £1550, 5th gets £1900, there's £9k for first.

                            Villian is an aggro internet player. He's been doing a lot of bluffing and 3betting light and been mostly getting away with it. He's chipped up massively on this FT and is now the CL with ~150k.

                            I have 120k, and the other players all have between 40 and 60k chips. So right now it's between me and villian.

                            Tight player opens UTG+1 for 4200.
                            Another tight player flat calls in MP.
                            Villian OTB, who I'm totally expecting a 3bet from, announces All In. I look down at AKo in the SB...

                            From your own description of the villian, I think this is an all-in from you too. Especially if you have your target as the top prize. It's a very obvious squeeze from him, (and its a move he's been making a lot from your reads), and like someone else said earlier in the thread, he hardly ever plays AA or KK like that. I guess he has a marginal hand that he's prepared to take on one of the shorties with at worst.

                            Connie

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Lot's of interesting answers here. I almost never look to fold AK anywhere in a tournament and especially at this stage and will always need a very good (and usually obvious) reason. However, I'm leaning towards folding this.
                              Presumably, the other players are of a reasonable quality this deep and will also have picked up on the btns agrro-ness and despite his lagtard image he must be aware of the message he's been sending. I made a balls of the side-pot calcs earlier, so have had another look. If we beat the big-stack and lose to one of the shorties we make a profit. Only problem is, if either of the shorties has AA/KK our outs are reduced vs villain and the odds must be high that at least one of them has at least one A/K. I probably fold.
                              Last edited by Lplate; 26-07-10, 17:53. Reason: Made a balls of the side-pot calcs

                              Comment


                                #16
                                -We're crushing his Ax's but, assuming he's competent, he shouldn't be doing this overly light considering original opener+caller are tight. I don't think we see A8-AT and KT-KQ enough tbh and are hoping he has AJ or AQ.
                                -I'm 2nd in chips with a decent enough difference between and yourself + the -CL and the 4 shorties(that whole ICM thing)
                                -I have position on an xlag CL.
                                -I have an M of >20 or 50BB's with an hour long clock(just presuming it's an hour). So much play left in my stack for this stage of the game.

                                I prefer to just fold here and move on to exploiting the CL's aggression ip and abusing the tight shorties.
                                It's all an illusion

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by 72over View Post
                                  -We're crushing his Ax's but, assuming he's competent, he shouldn't be doing this overly light considering original opener+caller are tight. I don't think we see A8-AT and KT-KQ enough tbh and are hoping he has AJ or AQ.
                                  -I'm 2nd in chips with a decent enough difference between and yourself + the -CL and the 4 shorties(that whole ICM thing)
                                  -I have position on an xlag CL.
                                  -I have an M of >20 or 50BB's with an hour long clock(just presuming it's an hour). So much play left in my stack for this stage of the game.

                                  I prefer to just fold here and move on to exploiting the CL's aggression ip and abusing the tight shorties.

                                  Do you not consider that theres every chance you are folding the best hand here? If hero moves in as well now, the tight shorties will have to have KK or AA to call after all that action, they'll just let the 2 cl's go at it. I just think its a golden oppertunity for hero to take a commanding position in the tourney. Your saying to fold and take advantage of the cl's aggression in position. Is this not the oppertunity to do just that?

                                  Connie

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by connie147 View Post
                                    Do you not consider that theres every chance you are folding the best hand here? If hero moves in as well now, the tight shorties will have to have KK or AA to call after all that action, they'll just let the 2 cl's go at it. I just think its a golden oppertunity for hero to take a commanding position in the tourney. Your saying to fold and take advantage of the cl's aggression in position. Is this not the oppertunity to do just that?

                                    Connie
                                    There's obv a chance we are folding the best hand here...that's not so much my point. With the best seat at the table + stack sizes, I feel there are much better spots than this. This obv depends on our edge vs the remaining players. If I feel I have an edge on the remaining players, accompanied with the points I've already mentioned, then I'm quite happy to fold here and keep chipping away. We're already in a golden spot without gambling here imo.
                                    It's all an illusion

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by 72over View Post
                                      -We're crushing his Ax's but, assuming he's competent, he shouldn't be doing this overly light considering original opener+caller are tight. I don't think we see A8-AT and KT-KQ enough tbh and are hoping he has AJ or AQ.
                                      -I'm 2nd in chips with a decent enough difference between and yourself + the -CL and the 4 shorties(that whole ICM thing)
                                      -I have position on an xlag CL.
                                      -I have an M of >20 or 50BB's with an hour long clock(just presuming it's an hour). So much play left in my stack for this stage of the game.

                                      I prefer to just fold here and move on to exploiting the CL's aggression ip and abusing the tight shorties.
                                      I had this thought process, reminded myself that it was controlled, conservative poker that got me to two final tables and that the same thing would break this LAG, and folded. He later said he had A2s FWIW. I believed him.
                                      "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        fold was right option I think

                                        I just don't think that, where a tighter stack has raised UTG andbeen called, he turns up with lesser aces enough to make it a call. most likely he's doing that with a pair < JJ and occasionally he's doing it with a monster to take advantage of his image. there are also enough aces and kings in the first two players hands to make it worse than a flip against his pairs <JJ

                                        so fold was right option

                                        views on his play there? fine in isolation but given his history can he not expect a call from the EP players?

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Honestly, I was praying one of them was going to call, but i wasn't surprised when they both folded. He had them both by the short and curlies.
                                          "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            I'm Folding due to the nit rais and the tight player's call, not upset if i see worse getting it in, not upset to see my hand win, i think being able to fold this here is a winning play!

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              this is absolutely never a fold !

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                I'd struggle to fold AQ here,

                                                snap call
                                                http://drjff.blogspot.com/

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Has everyone forgotten about the 2 tight players utg who raised? For me its a fold, have a little cry and then fold!

                                                  1 of the utg players has certainly got an ace in there hand if not both of them, which leaves you very short of outs if your looking to flip for all the money against the aggro player, I actually think he has AK himself with the huge all in bet making it still a fold!! He is not stupid none of the online kids are to be fair like sure they 3bet light all the time but not for all of their stacks with a huge over shove its just not their game...they hate that shit lol!!!

                                                  The aggro player knows exactly how he is playing so he could actually have the big guns in this hand as no1 will fold to him anymore...it's been what he has been setting up with all the over aggression! Its how the lags play the small ball all the time and min 3betting for sport but when they have real hand its always big pot play!

                                                  You can also use his aggression against him down the line as he will think he can't be touched, I think its a fold and then go to work yourself, if you get hu with this guy from knowing the way your thinking you could surely trap him ftw!!

                                                  Easyish fold lol
                                                  Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                  My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                  My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                                    Has everyone forgotten about the 2 tight players utg who raised? For me its a fold, have a little cry and then fold!
                                                    Yeah, its the tight players in the hand that lean this towards a fold, its close though

                                                    Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post

                                                    1 of the utg players has certainly got an ace in there hand if not both of them, which leaves you very short of outs if your looking to flip for all the money against the aggro player,
                                                    I think you are much better off just comparing ranges on pokerstove, don't try and guess where aces may or may not be. Tom used to always do this years ago on boards and it drove me mental

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      I never do only if the players are tight thats when I take their hands into account when I have the old big slick!! And yes that would tilt the balls off me hearing it in random spots lol
                                                      Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                      My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                      My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Im calling here definetly and my main worry is initial opener. Would be pretty sure im playing a massive pot against big stack flipping at worse.

                                                        Surprised theres such discussion about this

                                                        As you said to me few years back HJ in another hand we discussed a few years back "you have AK, the third best hand in poker - what you waiting for".
                                                        GAA News Website

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by AndyFB View Post
                                                          There's discussion because of what Emmett02 said. For a start, do I want to flip with this guy? ICM has got to say it's close.
                                                          With better than 50BB behind I suspect the ICM should say it's a fold.

                                                          Even without ICM I think you have to lay down AKo here unless you actually want to gamble your tournament on a coin flip.

                                                          Against only one player I might consider it but against 3 players and a still to act big blind (who seems to have been forgotten about in this thread) it's not that difficult to decide you just don't need to get involved here.
                                                          May you live in interesting times!

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            I would be folding here, I don't want to get AK in here 50bb deep. Sure if we win we are almost a lock to win the tournament but with position on the big stack and I presume a decent structure I would be happy enough letting this pass by especially given that the other guys are short enough also.

                                                            Disciplined fold Andy I think, wp

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              I dont know enough about ICM to say if we should fold this, but this looks like a clear +EV call (in terms of chips) to me. We are well ahead of btn range and BB and villains have to fold nearly their entire range. ICM may make this a fold, but I think we get it in against Ax a lot here if we call

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                All this bolicks about +Ev call, ahead of his range and all the other crap is fine in another hand but it's soooo obvious the online kid has just done something that he has not done all tourny pushing all in for huge over raise with the other big stack Andy to act behind him so why on earth would he ever stray from his normal standard 3bet!! It's a tell he has a big hand he is not messing around come on!!

                                                                If you want to get it in flipping at best then go ahead flip your coin and see what happens!! But you could easily grind this ft by the looks of it with only 1 other decent player left besides yourself!!

                                                                I think it was a great read you made Andy wp! You will surely hit more final tables soon!!!
                                                                Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  I think it was a great read you made Andy wp! You will surely hit more final tables soon!!!
                                                                  Thanks mate. You wanna stake me?
                                                                  "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Sure I love to stake ppl here have some money lol...but I really do like to stake the right ppl always have an interest!
                                                                    Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                    My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                    My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Id back you again anyway!..just drop me a pm!

                                                                      Comment

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