Originally posted by thegreatiam
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Moral Dilemma or STFU
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yes, backs on the table (they don't need to be spread, the dealer will do that. but backs on the table and let the dealer take them is a must). Players are not able to put their cards into the muck, the dealer will. So if they are tabled and he turns them over the dealer can read the hand as a winner and turn them back face up.
If he just briefly turns them without letting go and throws them face down then they cant be read and the dealer should immediately put them into the muck, leaving only the winning hand on the table.Last edited by thegreatiam; 18-12-12, 17:27.
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I'm for pointing out the mistake. Wouldn't feel right about continuing in this spirit. I think it's pretty unsportsmanlike not to highlight the error.
If I am not involved in the hand I'm also for pointing out the mistake ASAP. To me staying stchum on the sidelines is poor form.
'what people say they would do and what they would do' is a generalisation. It wouldn't be true in my case.
Mistakes have been made in my favour and I've highlighted it. Likewise I've piped up several times when not in a hand when a pot is getting shipped incorrectly (it happens a fair bit in live cash especially with newer dealers).
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Seen Bryan Devonshire talking about this on Twitter last night but said there is some difference when it comes to tournament vs cash game.
Tournament
Bryan Devonshire @devopoker
Dear tournament poker players: if you see something wrong with chips or a tabled hand, say something before the cards hit the muck, please.Bryan Devonshire @devopoker
I just caught something last second in an incorrectly chopped pot, took minutes to fix cause cards mixed, and almost got me in a fistfight.Bryan Devonshire @devopoker
Two people at the table not in the hand say I saw that too, but didn't want to say anything.
Cash game slightly different since each hand is an independent event, but essentially you're correcting dealer error, not player."you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)
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Originally posted by bustamoves View PostIf I am not involved in the hand I'm also for pointing out the mistake ASAP. To me staying stchum on the sidelines is poor form.
There are rules in place to accommodate this, if you want 100% of the time to have your cards read and never be in a situation like this then table your hand, where anyone can now read it. If you don't table your hand you, and you alone, are accepting that you might have misread and are throwing away a winner and must shoulder the loss.
While I agree with being sportsman like and fair play, the nature of the game means it is un-sportsman like to point out an error or mistake by another player unless the rules dictate you may. If the cards aren't tabled then you shouldn't say anything, more so if you arent in the hand.
Of course if you are the player getting the advantage you can speak up to your detriment, thats just fair play, but i wouldnt judge you (much!) if you didnt. But you would have a right to that pot.
Seen Bryan Devonshire talking about this on Twitter last night but said there is some difference when it comes to tournament vs cash game.Bryan Devonshire @devopoker
Dear tournament poker players: if you see something wrong with chips or a tabled hand, say something before the cards hit the muck, please.
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poker needs to start acting like it's a real sport so it can take its proper place. before i knew poker was a game of immense skill and beauty i was all about 'whatever way u can'
fuck that.
i also think in cash games people should allow obvious mistakes when it comes to string bets etc to be overlooked. if you are the player affected (more especially if you are a pro vs a/recreationals) you should make it your business to give allowance by making the dealer or TD to overlook/reassess shit like string calls/bets and so on.
i cringe when i see this fucked up attidude day in day out in cash games in the fitz.
another debate but one that i ponder alot.
at times when i see pro's ask for a ruling vs randomer who makes very obvious fuck up and proceed to take full advantage i thinks it's base.
this should not be a spot where u find EV. stand up, speak up. play your small part.
sick sad prick if u think otherwise.
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Poker is a game of skill and beauty, like you said.
And you are right in that certain players will aggressively take advantage of certain rules to find an edge. But its not right that some of these rules can be ignored.
Floor people and TD's are expected to assess each situation on its on, and not automatically abide by the rule. We have rules in place which take into account that if a player with a known history for 'angleshooting' or has a wealth of experience and should know better then the rule can be differently enforced than if it were a new or novice player.
But it is up to the floor staff to make that decision at the time, players should not.
i also think in cash games people should allow obvious mistakes when it comes to string bets etc to be overlooked.
This mistake is actually down to mass misunderstanding of the string bet rule. I've been in live poker for nearly 20 years, at all levels, and seen countless new players come and go, yet I can count on one hand the times ive seen a genuine string bet. Yet, in this country, more than almost every other country combined it is argued about the most. frankly its making a mountain of a molehill.
poker needs to start acting like it's a real sport so it can take its proper place. before i knew poker was a game of immense skill and beauty i was all about 'whatever way u can'
But the attitude of 'whatever way you can' I think in miss interpreted.
Ill give an example to suit the moral dilemma we are discussing:
In chess, everyone is aware of the rule in chess that once you remove your fingers from the piece your turn is over. You can do pretty much what you like, as soon as you let go you actions stand:
so, 2 players of equal skill are playing a game. Grandmaster A and grandmaster B.
GM A is dominating the match and close to winning. GM B makes his turn, moving his knight to take a bishop.
Before he gets his move completed someone in the crowd shouts 'Don't do that he'll take your Queen'
Now obviously this is a major breech of etiquette and rules, GM A is understandably po'd as that mistake would have won him the match. the offending supporter is removed from the crowed and GM B is happy cos he has been stopped from making a drastic mistake.
On the alternative, GM B completes this move and then the mistake is pointed out to him. In this case, the supporter is frowned upon but not punished as the move is completed and GM B has to stand on the result. GM B is pissed at himself and will probably lose. GM A has a choice, do what it takes to win and take the Queen or be a nice guy and don't. Im not 100% sure if it within the rules but he could also waive his right to follow up and allow GM B to take back the piece and rethink his move (this would happen for sure in a friendly home game, but i doubt it would exist in competition chess).
The point is, in chess he would be expected to take him down at this point, take the queen and win the match, and not one person would think him a bad 'un for doing so.
Why does there have to be a difference in poker. Player A did what needed to be done to win, Player B made a mistake and it cost him the victory, there is no unsportsman like behavior there.
Poker is the same, removing your finger from the peice, or tabling your cards have the same effect, once its done its done. face up cards on the table and anyone can read them, not face up on the table then its bad juju to point out the error.
tl:dr:
Poker is an individual sport, and like chess, backgammon, football or any other sport, part of winning is to induce your opponent to make a mistake and then take advantage of that mistake. If you are a player prone to making mistakes then there are rules to protect you, simply table your cards, ask the dealer to count the bet, wait for the other guy to turn his hand over if you called, etc
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