odds question

[Angry-Ball]

blinds 200/400/50 ante full table of 9

folded around to me in mp2 i have 6c7c i raise to 1000
mp3 makes it 3000

pot is now 5050
it is folded back to me

what odss do i need to continue here?
what are the odds off flopping big as in 2pairs,sets,flushdraws or straightdraws i would have a rough idea what flopping each one seperatly would be but what are the combined odds of ending up with any of those hands on the flop?

is it worthwhile continuing here with odds of 2.5:1 considering that he has 12k behind and i would have 22k left?.

[ViperEyeIRL]

Fold. Second best thing is to push if you think he may fold. You can't ever flat call here, you are not deep enough and you are out of position, 6c 7c doesn't work well in these situations with the stacks so shallow.

[emers guy]

call... over 2/1 ..if you flop big your getting all his chips... most of the time hehas a big pair here....

[NuckChorris]

Fold. Getting 2 to 1 before the flop and the in total 7 to 1 if you assume he'll stick in the rest on flop or turn. If a tight player at all he prob sticks the rest in 90% of the time so you can bring down your odds slightly.

Lads here can do the odds of you hitting the flop hard enough to stay in and the pre-flop odds vs a hand range from 10,10 upwards inc AK and maybe AQ. I'm not one that can work that out but am very sure you're way behind and don't catch up on the flop often enough to make this +ev. You'd need to be a >14% chance of flopping 2 pair, trips or pair plus draw. I doubt that you are. You're not looking to catch an open-ender or flush draw. Those are just outs if stuck.

Only reason to call here would be if you know the player and have history that suggests that he'll do this with a wide range or that he's so weak you can push him off most flops with a check-raise. The fact that you've money left behind doesn't matter.

Others know this stuff better but that's where I stand anyway.

[Wombatman]

call... over 2/1 ..if you flop big your getting all his chips... most of the time hehas a big pair here....

What do you mean by flop big?
Two pair?
What are the chances of that? 24/1.

So call 2k to win 17050 not 48K+?

[tipp86]

Dont even dream of calling imo.

Your oop with a pretty poor hand this deep.

I dont think odds play a big part in this hand. Calling 3 bets with this kind of hand will be a massive leak.

I think you can only call/shove here with 1010 - AA + AQ AK. All these scenarios will be player dependant which you dont get into.

[Maloney]

Obv 4bet shove.

[Caf]

Dont even dream of calling imo.

Your oop with a pretty poor hand this deep.

I dont think odds play a big part in this hand. Calling 3 bets with this kind of hand will be a massive leak.

I think you can only call/shove here with 1010 - AA + AQ AK. All these scenarios will be player dependant which you dont get into.

Except for this:

this deep.

Villain only has 30BB behind. Not really deep.

Agree with everything NuckChorris said too.


there should be better spots to see the flop than this one with this hand(or any marginal hand). In a 3bet pot, with 7k in there, what you going to do if you miss the flop(which will happen more often than not)? c/f? bye bye 2k...

[DAMO72]

Just fold pre and wait for a better spot . With your stack your in no hurry to get involved while oop with non premium hands .

Also i dont like your raise to 1000 , if your gonna raise oop with hands like this i would make it 1650 ( 3 x bb + antes) , this way if he raises he has to make it 4k+ to try and push you off your hand and it lets you know that he is comitting the rest of his stack pre and post flop as he has over a third of his stack in allready which makes your decision easier to fold now.

[Hatedajacks]

Just fold pre and wait for a better spot . With your stack your in no hurry to get involved while oop with non premium hands .

Also i dont like your raise to 1000 , if your gonna raise oop with hands like this i would make it 1650 ( 3 x bb + antes) , this way if he raises he has to make it 4k+ to try and push you off your hand and it lets you know that he is comitting the rest of his stack pre and post flop as he has over a third of his stack in allready which makes your decision easier to fold now.

Obvious fold but I like the raise size

[DAMO72]

Obvious fold but I like the raise size

Which one kev , the 1000 or the 1650?

[JackBurton]

im guessing 1000

[Hatedajacks]

Which one kev , the 1000 or the 1650?

I like 1000,I would prob make it 1100 but much prefer that then 1650

[tipp86]

Except for this:
Villain only has 30BB behind. Not really deep.

..

Think its just a case of my english been bad. When i say this deep i could refer to 5bbs as been 5bbs deep. Im not at any stage saying he is deep.

For what its worth i dont call a 3bet with this type of hand oop 100bbs deep. I feel you would have to be deeper and against a very weak/poor/fishy opponent.

I lol silently at guys in live games saying im getting 3 to 1 to call i have to etc.....

Just realised using lol silently makes no sense but oh well.

[DAMO72]

I like 1000,I would prob make it 1100 but much prefer that then 1650

Well a raise to 1k or 1.1k here is fine if your holding AA KK as your looking for action but when your holding 67 you dont want callers so i think the 1650 works better here to get the info you need .

I guess i will agree to dissagree with you

[Hatedajacks]

Well a raise to 1k or 1.1k here is fine if your holding AA KK as your looking for action but when your holding 67 you dont want callers so i think the 1650 works better here to get the info you need .

I guess i will agree to dissagree with you

Damo please tell me you are kidding. With the antes in it is profitable to raise more than usual for obvious reasons but from your comment you are telling the table what you have with your raise. This is the sort of thing you see from beginners.
Imo whether you have aces or rags here if you raise there should be very little difference in your bet size.In fact(not to contradict myself) but if i was to raise bigger i would rather do with a monster to look weak but i guess poker wouldnt be fun if we all played the same.

[Maloney]

Well a raise to 1k or 1.1k here is fine if your holding AA KK as your looking for action but when your holding 67 you dont want callers so i think the 1650 works better here to get the info you need .

I guess i will agree to dissagree with you

Level Obv?

[Angry-Ball]

Just fold pre and wait for a better spot . With your stack your in no hurry to get involved while oop with non premium hands .

Also i dont like your raise to 1000 , if your gonna raise oop with hands like this i would make it 1650 ( 3 x bb + antes) , this way if he raises he has to make it 4k+ to try and push you off your hand and it lets you know that he is comitting the rest of his stack pre and post flop as he has over a third of his stack in allready which makes your decision easier to fold now.

are you enciting play along the lines

weak hand = massive bet
strong hand= 2.5bbs




i think this is a bad stratergy
1: any reasonable player will pick up on this
2: if you go through the pot sizes and lets assume that villian didn't raise in this instance. then the pot would have been 3050 now lets say that i pick up a fd on that flop and i make a cbet off 60% of the pot 1800 total invested in pot so far 2800
if we play it your way and use the same assumptions as in the other example, then the pot on the flop is 4300 and you bet 60% of the pot again 2600 now we have 3600 invested
thats 800 chips extra to make the same play, which equates to 3.5% of your chips and if this happens to us 3 times an hour that represents 10% of our chip stack every hour.
that calculation might not be right, but what iam saying about your stratergy is that the pot gets very big very quickly and just starts to represent to much of a % of your stack to if you want to continue

[tipp86]

Well a raise to 1k or 1.1k here is fine if your holding AA KK as your looking for action but when your holding 67 you dont want callers so i think the 1650 works better here to get the info you need .

I guess i will agree to dissagree with you

Bad logic and any good player will eventually figure it out even average ones will.

1000 is the perfect raise imo why lose any more when you are 3 bet. Your raise would have lost you 1.5bbs more.

Edit eight ball beat me to the point

[DAMO72]

Damo please tell me you are kidding. With the antes in it is profitable to raise more than usual for obvious reasons but from your comment you are telling the table what you have with your raise. This is the sort of thing you see from beginners.
Imo whether you have aces or rags here if you raise there should be very little difference in your bet size.In fact(not to contradict myself) but if i was to raise bigger i would rather do with a monster to look weak but i guess poker wouldnt be fun if we all played the same.

I am a beginner

[DAMO72]

are you enciting play along the lines

weak hand = massive bet
strong hand= 2.5bbs




i think this is a bad stratergy
1: any reasonable player will pick up on this
2: if you go through the pot sizes and lets assume that villian didn't raise in this instance. then the pot would have been 3050 now lets say that i pick up a fd on that flop and i make a cbet off 60% of the pot 1800 total invested in pot so far 2800
if we play it your way and use the same assumptions as in the other example, then the pot on the flop is 4300 and you bet 60% of the pot again 2600 now we have 3600 invested
thats 800 chips extra to make the same play, which equates to 3.5% of your chips and if this happens to us 3 times an hour that represents 10% of our chip stack every hour.
that calculation might not be right, but what iam saying about your stratergy is that the pot gets very big very quickly and just starts to represent to much of a % of your stack to if you want to continue

I think the bad strategy comes in by raising 67 oop in the 1st place .
If you go back to my origonal post the 1st line is telling you to fold pre .

[OutFlank]

dont learn how to play tournaments by watching high stakes poker

[DAMO72]

Bad logic and any good player will eventually figure it out even average ones will.

1000 is the perfect raise imo why lose any more when you are 3 bet. Your raise would have lost you 1.5bbs more.

Edit eight ball beat me to the point

The bad logic again as i said above is in raising with 67 oop in the 1st place

[Caf]

The bad logic again as i said above is in raising with 67 oop in the 1st place

The bet sizing is a separate point in this. The size of the bet comes after the decision to play the hand. 2 different things imo.

EDIT: so while you said to fold pre you also said to bet 1650

[tipp86]

The bad logic again as i said above is in raising with 67 oop in the 1st place

No harm at all in raising this hand imo

[Angry-Ball]

I think the bad strategy comes in by raising 67 oop in the 1st place .
If you go back to my origonal post the 1st line is telling you to fold pre .

i don't see anything wrong with opening with this hand in mp

dont learn how to play tournaments by watching high stakes poker

lol i don't even watch high stakes poker
nor do i learn poker from tv

No harm at all in raising this hand imo

agree totally



anyhow to summerise

its ok to open this hand imo and a few others
fold now not worth carrying on

[DAMO72]

I still think if your gonna raise with krap hands out of position or as you say in mid position ( whats the difference ) that you should man up and put in a proper raise to take the blinds and antes down instead of putting in a scared raise incase you get 3bet so your not loosing as much when you have to fold like a little girl .
Btw i do agree like you and a few others that there is nothing wrong with raising with this hand , just not in this spot with a ghey raise .

[shano_88]

It isnt a case of maning up, its more about staying consistent with your strong and marginal hands.

[Caf]

I still think if your gonna raise with krap hands out of position or as you say in mid position ( whats the difference )

you may aswell turn your cards face up.

that you should man up and put in a proper raise to take the blinds and antes down instead of putting in a scared raise incase you get 3bet so your not loosing as much when you have to fold like a little girl .

You have a way with words Damo! Bet sizing will make or break you imo.

Btw i do agree like you and a few others that there is nothing wrong with raising with this hand , just not in this spot with a ghey raise .

Again, you have a way with words! if you raise AA in this spot then you should raise 67cc the same way in the same spot. It just makes sense, as you disguise the strength of different weighted hands.

[DAMO72]

you may aswell turn your cards face up.


You have a way with words Damo! Bet sizing will make or break you imo.


Again, you have a way with words! if you raise AA in this spot then you should raise 67cc the same way in the same spot. It just makes sense, as you disguise the strength of different weighted hands.

You know i never knew that there was only one way to play this game

[Caf]

You know i never knew that there was only one way to play this game

Ye and this is a discussion thread afaik. Is this section about good holdem strategy? And about people bouncing different plays off each other? I see no way that this betting pattern could be a winning technique in the long run. If you can find solid flaws in betting 2.5bb here and back it up with solid reasoning then please do, but you have made no case to support your 1650 raise. Others have posted fair points above and gotten one line responses like 'like I'm a beginner'. Do you still not see the logic in what has been posted(beginner or not)?

[TommyGunne]

I don't think there is any stack size that I would do anything other than fold to the 3b (unless we're deep and he's a huge moron.)

EDIT: Just read thread, Caf is obv right.

[Mellor]

I though people stopped adjusting bets sizes based on their holding after playing poker for about a week or two????????

[Starvin Marvin]

Some flawed logic in this thread, was wondering why it was so long.

Raise size fine, fold to 3bet.
If he was 40k/100bbs deep i still wouldnt call the 3bet.

[DAMO72]

Raise size is retarded IMO and nobody is folding to a raise that size. (Solid flaw)

Q. Are you looking for action with 67 oop . I dont think so

@ Mellor , FYI i would raise 1650 regardless of cards , my bet size wouldnt change .

@ Caf , You should read all the posts correctly instead of only reading what you want to see . I have explained my reasoning for the raise to 1650 in my very 1st post.
I agree that this is a discussion thread for strategy good or bad and for posters to bounce ideas off each other and i am just expressing what i would do if i was stupid enough to get into this spot in the first place .
And just because you dont see this as a winning technique in the long run doesn't make you right now does it. It just makes you different to me .

@ Eight Ball , Stop being bold and raising with christmas cards at easter time , its not very optimal and will only lead to you having to listen my somewhat flawed drivel/dribble on here .

OUTSKI

[Angry-Ball]

Raise size is retarded IMO and nobody is folding to a raise that size. (Solid flaw)

Q. Are you looking for action with 67 oop . I dont think so
67s is not a bd holding in this position provided i can see a flop now i would normally fold to this raise by villian and i only asked the question to see if i was right or wrong in folding now
@ Mellor , FYI i would raise 1650 regardless of cards , my bet size wouldnt change .
this is not really directed at me but if continue to raise large amts like this the pot gets to large for you to make cbets profitabally, 2.5bbs is considered a large bet when antes come into play and alot of guys on here would advocate 2.25bbs as being a sufficient raise, i would think that it is more about the % of your stack and villians stack the raise represents
@ Caf , You should read all the posts correctly instead of only reading what you want to see . I have explained my reasoning for the raise to 1650 in my very 1st post.
I agree that this is a discussion thread for strategy good or bad and for posters to bounce ideas off each other and i am just expressing what i would do if i was stupid enough to get into this spot in the first place .
And just because you dont see this as a winning technique in the long run doesn't make you right now does it. It just makes you different to me .

@ Eight Ball , Stop being bold and raising with christmas cards at easter time , its not very optimal and will only lead to you having to listen my somewhat flawed drivel/dribble on here .
again there is nothing wrong in my hand selection here, and it is only lately i have started to play these hands from different positions around the table following advise from a winning player on here, and i must say that it works well you can successfully cbet alot of flops and represent big cards if villian plays back at you then it is an easy hand to fold
OUTSKI

you have to accept a bit of critisism every now and then on here, nobody is saying that you havn't a clue what you are talking about.
i post questions that i want to know the answers to and some people on here put up posts that this is a stupid question and so on and tell me iam stupid for playing like that blah blah blah.... i don't particraly like it. but... i would much prefer to be called stupid and learn something than be told that i was spot on and go away still stupid.


edit:
god i really like my last line there

[TommyGunne]

Raise size is retarded IMO and nobody is folding to a raise that size. (Solid flaw)

Q. Are you looking for action with 67 oop . I dont think so

@ Mellor , FYI i would raise 1650 regardless of cards , my bet size wouldnt change .

@ Caf , You should read all the posts correctly instead of only reading what you want to see . I have explained my reasoning for the raise to 1650 in my very 1st post.
I agree that this is a discussion thread for strategy good or bad and for posters to bounce ideas off each other and i am just expressing what i would do if i was stupid enough to get into this spot in the first place .
And just because you dont see this as a winning technique in the long run doesn't make you right now does it. It just makes you different to me .

@ Eight Ball , Stop being bold and raising with christmas cards at easter time , its not very optimal and will only lead to you having to listen my somewhat flawed drivel/dribble on here .

OUTSKI

If you are 4xing, then obv you can't raise 67 here.

I dunno why you don't like the 2.5x? Its pretty standard, and defo gets through enough. If you are used to playing live where people don't like to fold, then sure you can make it a little bigger and tighten up your range, but still 4xing is too much imo.

If you keep 4xing in tougher events you will run into a lot of trouble imo. You just won't be able to steal as much, and it will make it a lot tougher on you.

FWIW, I'd fold the 67s from early MP with 40bb.

[danutpeddler]

Damo, at this stage of the tournament you should be considering robbing blinds and antes (or robbing people who are robbing blinds and antes )

The pot currently stands at 600 + 450 = 1050
By making it 2.5x you only need your play to be successful 1 out of 2 times to make this play breakeven/slightly profitable.

2.5x is also enough to put pressure on the big blind.

Regarding raising 67 from here with 40 bigs, i'd be inclined to fold but table dynamics might dictate a steal here if you see a decent spot.

No offence but i'd usually use these bad bet sizes pre flop to spot the fish at the table.

[Flushdraw]

Regarding raising 67 from here with 40 bigs, i'd be inclined to fold but table dynamics might dictate a steal here if you see a decent spot.

Table dynamics is important when you're put in a spot like this. I don't think there's much of a case to call the 3bet in the OP becasue we're too shallow but i could find a push for sure. If we were 100BBs deep, i think i'd call, because if i was raising in that spot with AK, 88-QQ i'd also be inclined to flat call.

I'd have no probs opening with 76s and I like the raise size altho i'd make it 1100. If we'd 40bbs here and we were 3bet from the blinds, i think i'd call in position, but with the stack sizes in the OP, i'd also fold

[tipp86]

Table dynamics is important when you're put in a spot like this. I don't think there's much of a case to call the 3bet in the OP becasue we're too shallow but i could find a push for sure. If we were 100BBs deep, i think i'd call, because if i was raising in that spot with AK, 88-QQ i'd also be inclined to flat call.

I'd have no probs opening with 76s and I like the raise size altho i'd make it 1100. If we'd 40bbs here and we were 3bet from the blinds, i think i'd call in position, but with the stack sizes in the OP, i'd also fold

Calling 3 bets with this type of hands is what makes 3 betting light such a profitable move. Im talking 100bbs deep.

[NuckChorris]

what odss do i need to continue here?
what are the odds off flopping big as in 2pairs,sets,flushdraws or straightdraws i would have a rough idea what flopping each one seperatly would be but what are the combined odds of ending up with any of those hands on the flop?

Did a little bit of research into this as felt it got lost in the thread (ie. I googled it). Whatever about strategy and bet-sizing it's no harm to know what the odds are of flopping "big", ie. a hand you've no prob getting it all-in with on flop. I've also gotten a "heavy" flop, ie. same as above but with 4 to a flush and an OESD or double-gutshot. This would give us the semi-bluff option on the flop (be it open-ship or check-raise).

Flopping "Big":
flopping EXACTLY two pair by pairing EACH of your hole cards
2.02%
flopping EXACTLY trips by flopping two cards to one hole card
1.347%
flopping EXACTLY a full house, trips of one hole card and pairing the other
0.092%
flopping EXACTLY four of a kind, three cards to one of your hole cards
0.01%
flopping a straight (including the slight chance of a straight flush in some cases)
1.306%
flopping a flush (including the slight chance of a straight flush in some cases)
0.842%

Odds: 5.6%
Odds needed to call (including implied odds): 17.8/1

Flopping "Heavy":
flopping a four flush
10.944%
flopping an 8 out straight draw
10.449%
flopping EXACTLY two pair by pairing EACH of your hole cards
2.02%
flopping EXACTLY trips by flopping two cards to one hole card
1.347%
flopping EXACTLY a full house, trips of one hole card and pairing the other
0.092%
flopping EXACTLY four of a kind, three cards to one of your hole cards
0.01%
flopping a straight (including the slight chance of a straight flush in some cases)
1.306%
flopping a flush (including the slight chance of a straight flush in some cases)
0.842%

Odds: 27%
Odds needed to call (including implied odds): 3.7/1


Here you can call to flop "heavy", not "big" but whether you want to do that or not depends on the player and how loose you play your game. Hope that helps a bit!

[TommyGunne]

Table dynamics is important when you're put in a spot like this. I don't think there's much of a case to call the 3bet in the OP becasue we're too shallow but i could find a push for sure. If we were 100BBs deep, i think i'd call, because if i was raising in that spot with AK, 88-QQ i'd also be inclined to flat call.

I'd have no probs opening with 76s and I like the raise size altho i'd make it 1100. If we'd 40bbs here and we were 3bet from the blinds, i think i'd call in position, but with the stack sizes in the OP, i'd also fold

Yeah calling IP might be OK, but I think 40bbs is a bit too little. 4bet shoving with this hand isn't great imo.

Calling 3 bets with this type of hands is what makes 3 betting light such a profitable move. Im talking 100bbs deep.

I think this post implies something wrong with your logic, but I don't know exactly what you mean, so can't be sure.

Did a little bit of research into this as felt it got lost in the thread (ie. I googled it). Whatever about strategy and bet-sizing it's no harm to know what the odds are of flopping "big", ie. a hand you've no prob getting it all-in with on flop. I've also gotten a "heavy" flop, ie. same as above but with 4 to a flush and an OESD or double-gutshot. This would give us the semi-bluff option on the flop (be it open-ship or check-raise).

Flopping "Big":
flopping EXACTLY two pair by pairing EACH of your hole cards
2.02%
flopping EXACTLY trips by flopping two cards to one hole card
1.347%
flopping EXACTLY a full house, trips of one hole card and pairing the other
0.092%
flopping EXACTLY four of a kind, three cards to one of your hole cards
0.01%
flopping a straight (including the slight chance of a straight flush in some cases)
1.306%
flopping a flush (including the slight chance of a straight flush in some cases)
0.842%

Odds: 5.6%
Odds needed to call (including implied odds): 17.8/1

Flopping "Heavy":
flopping a four flush
10.944%
flopping an 8 out straight draw
10.449%
flopping EXACTLY two pair by pairing EACH of your hole cards
2.02%
flopping EXACTLY trips by flopping two cards to one hole card
1.347%
flopping EXACTLY a full house, trips of one hole card and pairing the other
0.092%
flopping EXACTLY four of a kind, three cards to one of your hole cards
0.01%
flopping a straight (including the slight chance of a straight flush in some cases)
1.306%
flopping a flush (including the slight chance of a straight flush in some cases)
0.842%

Odds: 27%
Odds needed to call (including implied odds): 3.7/1


Here you can call to flop "heavy", not "big" but whether you want to do that or not depends on the player and how loose you play your game. Hope that helps a bit!

Think about this for a bit. What you posted isn't massively useful. Its interesting, and may be useful if you wanted to do much more complex calculations, but without the more complex calcs its not particularly useful and extremely misleading.

[NuckChorris]

Think about this for a bit. What you posted isn't massively useful. Its interesting, and may be useful if you wanted to do much more complex calculations, but without the more complex calcs its not particularly useful and extremely misleading.

Ah, didn't think it'd be used for any kind of strategy, just that he did ask the actual odds of hitting the hands and as no one had answered I thought I'd put it in. I work off very loose calculations anyway so wouldn't know any of those above without looking at a screen. I'm definitely not going using this for "more complex calcs".

Don't see how it's misleading unless the odds/numbers are incorrect - just took them from first site I found. No one's going to call a 3bet and hope to get ~18/1 on their money on the flop. As I said in my very first post:

You'd need to be a >14% chance of flopping 2 pair, trips or pair plus draw. I doubt that you are. You're not looking to catch an open-ender or flush draw. Those are just outs if stuck.

[tipp86]

This is at Tommy gunne

Do you not consider calling 3 bets with suited connectors and pocket pairs as a bit of a leak ? This is 100bbs deep against one opponent with little history. I would tend not to do it unless i had a further plan for the hand other than the basic if i miss i fold.

My point was that a lot of players will call with these types of hands and that can make 3 betting light in position a profitable move.

Is my logic flawed ?

[TommyGunne]

Ah, didn't think it'd be used for any kind of strategy, just that he did ask the actual odds of hitting the hands and as no one had answered I thought I'd put it in. I work off very loose calculations anyway so wouldn't know any of those above without looking at a screen. I'm definitely not going using this for "more complex calcs".

Don't see how it's misleading unless the odds/numbers are incorrect - just took them from first site I found. No one's going to call a 3bet and hope to get ~18/1 on their money on the flop. As I said in my very first post:

Yeah sorry, I just meant that using those numbers to convince yourself that calling 3bets with scs every time getting x/1 is silly. Didn't mean you were being misleading, just giving a warning.

[TommyGunne]

This is at Tommy gunne

Do you not consider calling 3 bets with suited connectors and pocket pairs as a bit of a leak ? This is 100bbs deep against one opponent with little history. I would tend not to do it unless i had a further plan for the hand other than the basic if i miss i fold.

My point was that a lot of players will call with these types of hands and that can make 3 betting light in position a profitable move.

Is my logic flawed ?

Yeah of course I consider it a leak. Oop anyway, and probably IP without history.

I get you now, you were just focusing in on guys who play those hands fit or fold. You was thinking of the type who play back a hell of a lot, which a lot of guys who call 3bs with scs are.

What do you mean by having further plan for the hand? Surely the flop will dictate your plan rather than having a plan in advance.

[tipp86]

Yeah of course I consider it a leak. Oop anyway, and probably IP without history.

I get you now, you were just focusing in on guys who play those hands fit or fold. You was thinking of the type who play back a hell of a lot, which a lot of guys who call 3bs with scs are.

What do you mean by having further plan for the hand? Surely the flop will dictate your plan rather than having a plan in advance.

Well this is possibly getting in to cash theory here more than tournament play.

Lets say i call the 3bet i will be looking to check raise the flop if the board is in anyway favourable to my hand.

Its very rare i am going to get fancy at the early stages of a tournament tho as its not like you have a reload button.

[Mellor]

@ Mellor , FYI i would raise 1650 regardless of cards , my bet size wouldnt change .

that's not what you said

Well a raise to 1k or 1.1k here is fine if your holding AA KK as your looking for action but when your holding 67 you dont want callers so i think the 1650 works better here to get the info you need .

[Caf]

I wasn't going to but I may as well address the @ Caf bit:

Raise size is retarded IMO and nobody is folding to a raise that size. (Solid flaw)SOLID FLAW IS THIS STATEMENT

@ Caf , You should read all the posts correctly instead of only reading what you want to see . I have explained my reasoning for the raise to 1650 in my very 1st post.
I agree that this is a discussion thread for strategy good or bad and for posters to bounce ideas off each other and i am just expressing what i would do if i was stupid enough to get into this spot in the first place .
And just because you dont see this as a winning technique in the long run doesn't make you right now does it. It just makes you different to me .

Just to be clear, I would not give an opinion on a thread that I have not read in full. I don't know where you got this idea from anyway, What makes you think I haven't read the thread? Another "I'm a beginner" comment? I have read all the posts again just to double check and I'm standing by every point I've made. The point is that you are in this spot (in this hand above) and you have said you would make it 1650.

Your first post:

Just fold pre and wait for a better spot . With your stack your in no hurry to get involved while oop with non premium hands .

Also i dont like your raise to 1000 , if your gonna raise oop with hands like this i would make it 1650 ( 3 x bb + antes) , this way if he raises he has to make it 4k+ to try and push you off your hand and it lets you know that he is comitting the rest of his stack pre and post flop as he has over a third of his stack in allready which makes your decision easier to fold now.

You first point here is fair imo.

You second point is all I was talking about and they are 2 different points as I have said before. 1000 is standard for me. If 1650 is standard for you then GL. But you have said that it is your standard bet and you have also said it is not your standard bet and also just your bet with average hands like 67cc.

Outski...

[TommyGunne]

Well this is possibly getting in to cash theory here more than tournament play.

There isn't really any difference. Its the same game. The only difference is in ICM really. "Cash theory" = "tournament theory" basically for the most part until you get to the later stages

Lets say i call the 3bet i will be looking to check raise the flop if the board is in anyway favourable to my hand.

Or call obv. But yeah the board would obv have to oblige in some way.

Its very rare i am going to get fancy at the early stages of a tournament tho as its not like you have a reload button.

That really doesn't matter much. I don't know why people think it does. The only possible way it would is cos there are so many free chips at the start of tournies that "better spots" may actually apply. But if you play in fields where you regularly come across the same guys, like some ipoker tourneys or some other sites that have smallish tournies, you need to be "getting fancy" against them sometimes. They're usually not completely retarded, so you do need to have some bluffs against them. Also, if a bluff is profitable, fire it. There are plenty spots where bluffing is very worthwhile.

[DAMO72]

that's not what you said

I honestly dont know how you can even turn on a computer if you cant even read and understand a simple sentance .

Originally Posted by DAMO72
Well a raise to 1k or 1.1k here is fine if your holding AA KK as your looking for action but when your holding 67 you dont want callers so i think the 1650 works better here to get the info you need .

Does this say that i said that i would raise to 1000 or 1100 . I think not .
It simply states that i think it would be fine for the op to make that raise with AA , KK .

Learn to read and also understand what you are reading

[DAMO72]

Just to be clear, I would not give an opinion on a thread that I have not read in full. I don't know where you got this idea from anyway, What makes you think I haven't read the thread? Another "I'm a beginner" comment? I have read all the posts again just to double check and I'm standing by every point I've made. The point is that you are in this spot (in this hand above) and you have said you would make it 1650.

Your first post:


You first point here is fair imo.

You second point is all I was talking about and they are 2 different points as I have said before. 1000 is standard for me. If 1650 is standard for you then GL. But you have said that it is your standard bet and you have also said it is not your standard bet and also just your bet with average hands like 67cc.

Outski...[/quote]

Your issue was that i didnt back up my reasoning for a raise to 1650 . Which i pointed out to you to read my 1st post properly .
If you did infact read it properly as you said you did (actually twice now ) and you still cant see my explanation for the raise amount then you also need to work on your reading abilities .

Inski outski shake it all aboutski.

[Caf]

Your issue was that i didnt back up my reasoning for a raise to 1650 . Which i pointed out to you to read my 1st post properly .
If you did infact read it properly as you said you did (actually twice now ) and you still cant see my explanation for the raise amount then you also need to work on your reading abilities .

Inski outski shake it all aboutski.

I'm only out of bed but I just can't stop laughing at this. Thanks for cheering up my morning Damo. You are a legend.

Ok, I do see your explanation and I do not think that it is solid play for any game(live/online). Here's the best I can do before sticking a fork in this...

Damo on Hand 1: Folded to you in LP with 22k. You raise to 1650 with 67cc. Two callers from Butt and SB who both have you covered. Pot 5800. Flop comes 2d, 6d, 7d. You bet 3750(do you Cbet more?) and get 2 callers. Pot 17050. Turn comes 10d. now you check/fold and just lost 5400.

Caf on Hand 1: Folded to you in LP with 22k. You raise to 1000 with 67cc. Two callers from Butt and SB who both have you covered. Pot 3850. Flop comes 2d, 6d, 7d. You bet 2400 and get 2 callers. Pot 11050. Turn comes 10d. Now you check/fold and just lost 3400.

2k is an M of almost 2 and 5 bbs at this stage. I'll take my 2k and put it to good use later in the game tyvm. I'll will also make one or two steals that you won't be able to do since you will have thrown half your stack away with your bet sizing issues.

Just remember that if people are going to call a 2.5bb raise they will tend to call a 3bb or 4bb raise. Their cards are the same and don't change just because you raise an extra 650. 3bets are obviously going to be significantly lower as a result.

[tipp86]

Right i think its fair to say damo has his own ideas and lets just let him have them. I dont think its worthwhile to keep arguing as i dont think his viewpoint will change.

Any one who posts will surely listen to the majority.

I dont think its any harm for someone to throw out a different viewpoint at least then the negatives and positives of that move can be discussed.

[DAMO72]

I'm only out of bed but I just can't stop laughing at this. Thanks for cheering up my morning Damo. You are a legend.

Ok, I do see your explanation and I do not think that it is solid play for any game(live/online). Here's the best I can do before sticking a fork in this...

Damo on Hand 1: Folded to you in LP with 22k. You raise to 1650 with 67cc. Two callers from Butt and SB who both have you covered. Pot 5800. Flop comes 2d, 6d, 7d. You bet 3750(do you Cbet more?) and get 2 callers. Pot 17050. Turn comes 10d. now you check/fold and just lost 5400.

Caf on Hand 1: Folded to you in LP with 22k. You raise to 1000 with 67cc. Two callers from Butt and SB who both have you covered. Pot 3850. Flop comes 2d, 6d, 7d. You bet 2400 and get 2 callers. Pot 11050. Turn comes 10d. Now you check/fold and just lost 3400.

2k is an M of almost 2 and 5 bbs at this stage. I'll take my 2k and put it to good use later in the game tyvm. I'll will also make one or two steals that you won't be able to do since you will have thrown half your stack away with your bet sizing issues.

Just remember that if people are going to call a 2.5bb raise they will tend to call a 3bb or 4bb raise. Their cards are the same and don't change just because you raise an extra 650. 3bets are obviously going to be significantly lower as a result.

Ahh Caf will ya stop , i allready said that i wouldnt raise with 67 so what you just wrote was totally pointless . And furthermore i am totally disgusted to find out at this stage that you are only out of the fukkin bed ya lazy hoor.

[Caf]

Ahh Caf will ya stop , i allready said that i wouldnt raise with 67 so what you just wrote was totally pointless I thought it summed it up nicely tbh . And furthermore i am totally disgusted to find out at this stage that you are only out of the fukkin bed ya lazy hoor.

[DAMO72]

Right i think its fair to say damo has his own ideas and lets just let him have them. I dont think its worthwhile to keep arguing as i dont think his viewpoint will change.

Any one who posts will surely listen to the majority.

I dont think its any harm for someone to throw out a different viewpoint at least then the negatives and positives of that move can be discussed.

I dont know what thread you are reading but there is nobody here agreeing with you either .
( Listen to the majority me hole ) Thats just LOL

I would advise anyone not to post here cos they will be chewed up and spat out by a bunch of fools who think they know everything .

Now im off to blow me Vuvuzela , good day sirs

[Caf]

LMAO.

[DAMO72]

LMAO.

You must have lost that fork you were going to stick in it

[Starvin Marvin]

Opening for full pot is bad for so many reasons.

Peoples calling/defending range generally wont change much if we make it 1025 here instead of 1650, if they decide to start peeling lighter we still have the initiative and can take it down with a cbet on decent boards. It makes it much cheaper for the times we have air and get 3bet and have to fold and means we can open a wider range which when people are playing tight and playing fit or fold poker is going to be really profitable.

This is pretty basic stuff tbh.