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    interesting hand i think(Live)

    this hand happned about 3 hours ago in 2-5-10 NL game in the fitz.

    Reads on villain:
    we have been playing for good few hours by now and he started of by spewing alot and being a donk but he got paid of and now has a massive stack.for the past couple of hours though he has been very sensible.has not gotten out of line and has shown no interest in losing money when he dosent need to.

    he has played some small pots and mostly won them if it got to show down or else lost a few small ones perhaps.

    my image:
    i have been fairly active recently i think but have not clashed in a big way with villain.
    usually either i c-bet and take it ,or it was multiway and some one else toke it but all smallish pots.
    i have not shown down any bluffs either and have not played a huge pot up to this point .
    i have won couple of mid sized pots and maybe a semi big one worth a few hundo.

    hand :
    stacks:
    Me:1500
    Villain:1200

    couple of ppl call for 10 and i make it 50 from SB with AKo.
    villain makes the call from BB and every one else folds:

    flop(130)
    2d 3s Kh

    i bet 60 villain calls.

    Turn (250)
    Qc
    i check .villain bets 125.
    i call.

    river(500)
    As
    i bet 300 .villain shoves for 1K after thinking about it for 20-30 seconds.

    me????

    #2
    Don't reall like any street as played, I'd make it bigger pre oop after a few limpers. I bet more on the flop definitely, closer to 100. Check calling the turn seems bad as its a card you'll be barrelling alot, dont get your line here at all. The river donk is very bad then, what hands did you think he'd call it with that don't bet themselves? And more importantly if you check called the turn becasue you thought he'd bluff then you should have taken the same line now again as its a card that he might continue bluffing. The size of the donk is bad too, looks like a value bet too much, easy fold now.
    "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

    Comment


      #3
      More pre
      more on the flop
      bet turn
      hate river donk and its a fold now

      edit bah what line us said

      Comment


        #4


        surely this is a call no???
        feels like at worst your chopping??

        Comment


          #5
          I can't see the villain not reraising PF with KK/QQ.

          This is surely an epic suckout on KQ no?

          Comment


            #6
            Jam the river

            Comment


              #7
              Im not sure about what you are trying to do here?

              How many limpers were there? I would prob make it a bit more pre. Alot will depend on your image of Villian as we all know certain players in the Fitz dont exactly need much to make this call.

              Id bet a bit more on flop more like 3/4's of pot. I dont mind checking the turn for pot control, but I wouldnt donk the river, Id just check call.

              Tough enough to put him on a hand. I wonder what LineUs thinks this guy might have on the river here given the action?? Like why is it a simple fold?

              Sets? v unlikely he has KK,QQ,AA

              doubt he ever had J10.

              hand range prob made up mostly of KQ, 22,33, and bluffs?

              has to have more than one pair or else a bluff. Would he peel flop with AQ and then check turn? Also he never just has an Ace looking for value with how he got to the river.

              I really dont think this is such a straight forward fold as played but the way you played it has made for your decision to be tougher and more costly if wrong.

              Be very interested to see what he has here.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Downtown View Post

                Tough enough to put him on a hand. I wonder what LineUs thinks this guy might have on the river here given the action?? Like why is it a simple fold?

                Sets? v unlikely he has KK,QQ,AA

                doubt he ever had J10.

                hand range prob made up mostly of KQ, 22,33, and bluffs?
                Ya I think your range is bang on. I think he flats all 2 pair on the river, cant see anyone shoving KQ or a2/a3, id say his range is 22,33, maybe 45s at a stretch and bluffs. I'd be suprised if he's shoving the river here as a bluff often enough to call, especially given reads. In these spots (river raises, wheres its a nut hand or nothing)vs average players you can fold every time without the need to worry about getting exploited, these guys dont bluff or value bet thinly enough for you to make the call profitable in the long run. If this was vs a decent player and we somehow managed to get to the river with such a strange line then I think it would be close but given reads I'd fold.
                "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                Comment


                  #9
                  Really cannot see any reason to fold here. Said to be donkish and spewy and he reps nothing. More than likely has a hand that he's unknowingly turned into a bluff. If he has 22 or 33 then pay the man IMO.

                  Really hate your flop bet size too.
                  Looking for full or part time poker and betting writers. PM if interested.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    ok every one seems to hate my bet sizing.
                    obv not saying i am right but the reason for the small bets is that,i played alot of pots.
                    where they limp and i raise it up in position and bet half the pot on the flop.

                    now when i missed i would bet half and when i hit i bet close to half as well.
                    there was 120-30 in the pot and i bet 60-70 which is nearly half.
                    the hand was HU so why is this so bad?if im betting half pots all nite then i can come out and bet close to full on that dry board can i?


                    the turn check call:
                    when he calls my bet on the flopi think at the very least he has a K.
                    KQ was deffo in his range .
                    it this stage i think im either miles ahead or miles behind.
                    i thought i check to see what he does and get more info.

                    when he bets 125 obv im good here some times so i call.
                    the river,i thought he will actually check behind alot of hands that he would check behind.
                    also cuz i had played my hand passivly i thought it may induce him to call lighter.


                    when he though and shoved ,my first thougths were im toast and fold.
                    however when i thoght about it the only hand he was repping was 45 and i was sure he wouldn't play 45 that way.

                    i thought what ever his hand was he made it on the flop.and i didn't think he had 33,22 cuz i dont think he jams for another 700 on the river,when i could easily have him beat.
                    the more i thought about it the more it looked like bluff.i just could not put him on a hand.
                    so i made the call eventually and he has:

                    SPOILER
                    KJo

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by ianmc38 View Post
                      Really cannot see any reason to fold here. Said to be donkish and spewy and he reps nothing. More than likely has a hand that he's unknowingly turned into a bluff. If he has 22 or 33 then pay the man IMO.

                      Really hate your flop bet size too.
                      why is flop bet so bad considering that im doing this all nite.raising pre and betting half pot on the flop.
                      Last edited by Gholimoli; 16-01-11, 16:55.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by fitz player
                        due to my name u can see i play most my poker in fitz and im just curious to know when is this 2-5-10 game on, because im there most evenings and its only 1-2 straddle 5 never have i played this 2-5-10 game, just wondering are we on about the same place fitzwilliam casino in dublin,
                        also i understand how u played the hand and i agree with one or two of the other comments bet preflop should have definatly been larger as you were in the small blind raised to 50 and the villain calls in big blind,, surley that would have given other players the equity and value to call with a lot of funky hands, your raise shud have been max (assuming this 2-5-10 game is still pot limit) to isolate the pot, flop bet again shud have been near to pot size to find out where u were standing, if followed by a flat call u could presume u were facing another king if he raised worst case is facing set of 2's or 3's which would mean another large bet on turn, or as u did check the turn is not too bad a play but only if its setting up for a check raise i definatly wouldn't have check called, u gain no information,, so it was either large bet the turn or check raise it, after that u may pick up the pot or know exactly what u were facing, but definatly check call is not good play there, maybe u wont like my view on the hand but the fitz is a very aggressive game so the only way to play back at them is being aggressive this check calling in the fitz wont work especially when i lead out on river with 2 pair when all draws eventually made it, its no longer sets u are worried about but straights and flush's too, by right u should have known where u stood by the turn, ud have lost a couple of hundred to find out or ud have took down the pot, but u definatly wouldn't be left puzzled as to what went on, now ur left with no info ,no money from it, and the villain is laughing all the way to the bank, sorry to put it like that but ul learn from ur mistakes quickly and especially in the fitz,,
                        Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by fitz player
                          due to my name u can see i play most my poker in fitz and im just curious to know when is this 2-5-10 game on, because im there most evenings and its only 1-2 straddle 5 never have i played this 2-5-10 game, just wondering are we on about the same place fitzwilliam casino in dublin,
                          also i understand how u played the hand and i agree with one or two of the other comments bet preflop should have definatly been larger as you were in the small blind raised to 50 and the villain calls in big blind,, surley that would have given other players the equity and value to call with a lot of funky hands, your raise shud have been max (assuming this 2-5-10 game is still pot limit) to isolate the pot, flop bet again shud have been near to pot size to find out where u were standing, if followed by a flat call u could presume u were facing another king if he raised worst case is facing set of 2's or 3's which would mean another large bet on turn, or as u did check the turn is not too bad a play but only if its setting up for a check raise i definatly wouldn't have check called, u gain no information,, so it was either large bet the turn or check raise it, after that u may pick up the pot or know exactly what u were facing, but definatly check call is not good play there, maybe u wont like my view on the hand but the fitz is a very aggressive game so the only way to play back at them is being aggressive this check calling in the fitz wont work especially when i lead out on river with 2 pair when all draws eventually made it, its no longer sets u are worried about but straights and flush's too, by right u should have known where u stood by the turn, ud have lost a couple of hundred to find out or ud have took down the pot, but u definatly wouldn't be left puzzled as to what went on, now ur left with no info ,no money from it, and the villain is laughing all the way to the bank, sorry to put it like that but ul learn from ur mistakes quickly and especially in the fitz,,
                          This hurts my eyes aswell as confusing me

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Line Us View Post
                            Ya I think your range is bang on. I think he flats all 2 pair on the river, cant see anyone shoving KQ or a2/a3, id say his range is 22,33, maybe 45s at a stretch and bluffs. I'd be suprised if he's shoving the river here as a bluff often enough to call, especially given reads. In these spots (river raises, wheres its a nut hand or nothing)vs average players you can fold every time without the need to worry about getting exploited, these guys dont bluff or value bet thinly enough for you to make the call profitable in the long run. If this was vs a decent player and we somehow managed to get to the river with such a strange line then I think it would be close but given reads I'd fold.
                            This would be good analysis if villian was a good poker player.

                            Gholi: Preflop and flop is ok if your range is balanced, but you should think about making it more with your average hands so that you can extract more value from your strong hands and when you hit with your average hands. That said, live players are rarely paying attention to your bet sizing and will frequently call bets with rags just because there's value. You can add an extra BB or two on there with your strong hands and nobody will notice. They're mostly just looking at their hand and the price to call compared to the size of the pot. You could have easily made it 70 here and still got 4 callers.

                            Half pot cbet is fine on a dry board HU when you're balanced. But again, 60-70% would better long term because he's calling with such a huge range on that board.
                            "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                            Comment


                              #15
                              ok im just a donkey then yeah,
                              sorry for my view on the situation,
                              i must be mad thinking max bets and check raising am i?
                              shur lets just bet enough to price him in,
                              and when he bets lets just flat call an throw away cash hoping to have him beat,
                              rather than finding out where u stand with top pair top kicker,
                              just so he can see it to the river then throw over the nuts to clean u out,
                              ah well betting aggressively must be for donkeys then yeah,
                              i still think that hand should have ended by the turn

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by fitz player View Post
                                ok im just a donkey then yeah,
                                sorry for my view on the situation,
                                i must be mad thinking max bets and check raising am i?
                                shur lets just bet enough to price him in,
                                and when he bets lets just flat call an throw away cash hoping to have him beat,
                                rather than finding out where u stand with top pair top kicker,
                                just so he can see it to the river then throw over the nuts to clean u out,
                                ah well betting aggressively must be for donkeys then yeah,
                                i still think that hand should have ended by the turn
                                Why did you shove with KJo?

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  its not me i wasn't the VILLAIN

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by fitz player View Post
                                    its not me i wasn't the VILLAIN
                                    i was joking

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by fitz player View Post
                                      ok im just a donkey then yeah,
                                      sorry for my view on the situation,
                                      i must be mad thinking max bets and check raising am i?
                                      shur lets just bet enough to price him in,
                                      and when he bets lets just flat call an throw away cash hoping to have him beat,
                                      rather than finding out where u stand with top pair top kicker,
                                      just so he can see it to the river then throw over the nuts to clean u out,
                                      ah well betting aggressively must be for donkeys then yeah,
                                      i still think that hand should have ended by the turn
                                      Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by fitz player View Post
                                        i still think that hand should have ended by the turn
                                        Has to be a level?

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
                                          what do u not get?

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by digiman View Post
                                            Has to be a level?
                                            DBC obv imo.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              I was going to say in the current climate this is never really a bluff, certainly not enough that we can profitably call imo. The only problem a standard opponent in a game like this is very capable of shoving it in with all the two pair combos we beat (not many obv).I almost like his river shove-would like to know who was the villan.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by fitz player View Post
                                                what do u not get?
                                                Why your so angry

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by AndyFB View Post
                                                  This would be good analysis if villian was a good poker player.

                                                  Gholi: Preflop and flop is ok if your range is balanced, but you should think about making it more with your average hands so that you can extract more value from your strong hands and when you hit with your average hands. That said, live players are rarely paying attention to your bet sizing and will frequently call bets with rags just because there's value. You can add an extra BB or two on there with your strong hands and nobody will notice. They're mostly just looking at their hand and the price to call compared to the size of the pot. You could have easily made it 70 here and still got 4 callers.

                                                  Half pot cbet is fine on a dry board HU when you're balanced. But again, 60-70% would better long term because he's calling with such a huge range on that board.
                                                  well i know what you are saying but i play alot more avarage hands than strong hands.
                                                  keeping the pot smaller some times makes the opponent release their hand easier ,i think.
                                                  which is what i want.

                                                  in exchange i dont get as much value with my big hands ,i know that but i think i more than make up for it by picking up alot more small hands .
                                                  am i wrong in thinking this way?
                                                  Last edited by Gholimoli; 16-01-11, 22:36.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                                                    Why your so angry
                                                    ha ha i live on aggression i suppose thats why it suits my game so well, (u shud see me on tilt im crazy), well im sorry if ive offended anyone but do u not think some points i made make some sence at all, i suppose if i dont even get an ounce of recognition it'd get to me, im the same on the table if dont get respect i force players to fear me as i can be a bit of a wild card. u know how it is if you cant get respect on a table your bets mean jack shit, wud u agree?

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Not a fan of the river donk. Other than that seems ok, maybe a little more pre.
                                                      http://carlmorrissey.blogspot.com/
                                                      http://twitter.com/#!/Moro88

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by fitz player View Post
                                                        ha ha i live on aggression i suppose thats why it suits my game so well, (u shud see me on tilt im crazy), well im sorry if ive offended anyone but do u not think some points i made make some sence at all, i suppose if i dont even get an ounce of recognition it'd get to me, im the same on the table if dont get respect i force players to fear me as i can be a bit of a wild card. u know how it is if you cant get respect on a table your bets mean jack shit, wud u agree?
                                                        I think i found my twin

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                                                          I think i found my twin
                                                          ha ha so im not talking through my ass then lol,, im just a real super aggressive player which is also my down fall works great in live cash games and tournaments but really need to change it for online games, im my own worst enemy there,,

                                                          hey im still curious to find out about this 2-5-10 game cos ive only played 1-2-5 in fitz unless its on the omaha game where it could be any amount pre flop,,

                                                          do they put it up to 2-5-10 early in the morning or something cos im usually outa there by 5am, or is it just if players agree to it or how???

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            more pre, more on the flop, say $100, lead turn
                                                            Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post
                                                            why is flop bet so bad considering that im doing this all nite.raising pre and betting half pot on the flop.
                                                            It's been bad all nite if that's the case.

                                                            and villain prob wouldn't notice anything was off if you bet 100 on flop

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                              more pre, more on the flop, say $100, lead turn

                                                              It's been bad all nite if that's the case.

                                                              and villain prob wouldn't notice anything was off if you bet 100 on flop
                                                              every one says it's bad with out giving me a reason as to why it's bad.
                                                              what's wrong with betting half the pot on the flop os generally playing smaller poker?

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Yeah I really don't get why people dislike the flop sizing so much?

                                                                Slightly under half pot on a board dryer then the Sahara, surely we want to bet small here with our value hands as well as our cbets, betting smaller will induce the guy to float/bluff raise us a ton I think.

                                                                River is a call, while not being ecstatic about it. I don't mind the bet if you know what your plan is, bet/call, bet/fold whatever. I think a check/call is probably better. Close though.

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Yeah the flop bet is fine given the board texture and that it's balanced. But you should be cbetting more on wet boards as your opponents are more likely to have a draw and you don't want to give them the correct odds to call.

                                                                  Preflop raises should be bigger because live players love to call for "value" and simple maths says the more hands involved the less likely it is yours is the best one. If there's 3 or more limpers, nobody's folding to a 5x raise because they know if they call then everyone after them will also call.

                                                                  in exchange i dont get as much value with my big hands ,i know that but i think i more than make up for it by picking up alot more small hands .
                                                                  am i wrong in thinking this way?
                                                                  I guess players are more likely to fold under pressure when the pot isn't worth fighting for, but I think this is outweighed by the need to minimise the number of players who will see the flop.
                                                                  "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by Moneymaker View Post
                                                                    River is a call, while not being ecstatic about it. I don't mind the bet if you know what your plan is, bet/call, bet/fold whatever. I think a check/call is probably better. Close though.
                                                                    Should really be a squick call or fold, not because its easy or trivial, but because you should have already decided before you bet.

                                                                    as I said, i prefer c/c

                                                                    Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post
                                                                    every one says it's bad with out giving me a reason as to why it's bad.
                                                                    what's wrong with betting half the pot on the flop os generally playing smaller poker?
                                                                    There are plenty of times i bet half pot. But I think in this case I bet more purely on hand strength and for value

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                                      There are plenty of times i bet half pot. But I think in this case I bet more purely on hand strength and for value
                                                                      We can still(if we want) get all the chips in by the river by betting half pot on the flop. And if it induces bluff raises/floats/light calls then i'm betting half pot all day long here.

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        I prob make it a little more pre, given that you are oop.

                                                                        Flop I bet like 80-100.

                                                                        Turn I, don't mind the ch-call (but I do with the intention of checking the river also).

                                                                        River, I like a ch-call. You're not getting much value from a ch-raise and leading the river is bad imo. The reason leading the river is bad is because a) there's not much he can call with here b) you leave yourself open to what happens (getting reraised for ur stack when u hold a strong, but non-nut hand) c) you're not losing much value by checking. Maybe if you bet, he'll call with KJ or KT, but any other hands like KQ, he'll bet anyway so the result is the same (ie if he has KQ => you bet he calls, you win. or, you check, he bets, you call, you win).

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          btw, as played, I think I fold.

                                                                          22, 33 make up a big part of his range, and even AA is not unplausible (I know it is unlikely he flats pf with AA in what will prob be a multiway pot, but you never know). KK and QQ are possible, but even less likely than aces.

                                                                          JT is unlikely, however, the ole 45 might've hit on the river. 45 would match the action as played also.

                                                                          KQ is the only hand he is shoving for value that you are beating. However, your hand looks a lot like AK (or maybe even AQ or AA) so I think the KQ flats on the river.

                                                                          Also, I think given his image (looser earlier on), he is doing this with a very strong more often than not.

                                                                          And also, I can't think of any 'random bluffs' he could have here. Unless he was absolutely floating on the flop with the intention of taking it away on the turn/river, there's bluffs he can really have (46 and 56 are the only real draws that missed, A4 and A5 surely don't play like this).

                                                                          So basically, the only hand you're beating is KQ. Any other two pair combinations don't add up, and I think it's very unlikely he is bluffing with air/missed draw. So more than likely, he has a set or 54 here. I fold.

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post
                                                                            ok every one seems to hate my bet sizing.
                                                                            obv not saying i am right but the reason for the small bets is that,i played alot of pots.
                                                                            where they limp and i raise it up in position and bet half the pot on the flop.

                                                                            now when i missed i would bet half and when i hit i bet close to half as well.
                                                                            there was 120-30 in the pot and i bet 60-70 which is nearly half.
                                                                            the hand was HU so why is this so bad?if im betting half pots all nite then i can come out and bet close to full on that dry board can i?


                                                                            the turn check call:
                                                                            when he calls my bet on the flopi think at the very least he has a K.
                                                                            KQ was deffo in his range .
                                                                            it this stage i think im either miles ahead or miles behind.
                                                                            i thought i check to see what he does and get more info.

                                                                            when he bets 125 obv im good here some times so i call.
                                                                            the river,i thought he will actually check behind alot of hands that he would check behind.
                                                                            also cuz i had played my hand passivly i thought it may induce him to call lighter.


                                                                            when he though and shoved ,my first thougths were im toast and fold.
                                                                            however when i thoght about it the only hand he was repping was 45 and i was sure he wouldn't play 45 that way.

                                                                            i thought what ever his hand was he made it on the flop.and i didn't think he had 33,22 cuz i dont think he jams for another 700 on the river,when i could easily have him beat.
                                                                            the more i thought about it the more it looked like bluff.i just could not put him on a hand.
                                                                            so i made the call eventually and he has:

                                                                            SPOILER
                                                                            KJo


                                                                            Yeah flop bet is fair enough in that case, and I like your line on the turn.

                                                                            I still dislike betting the river. You can't honestly say that you beat the river to induce a bluff-shove from a hand like KJo?

                                                                            It's interesting that KJ took that line. Most likely, the player is just a bad, non-thinking player, because bluffing (assume he's not value betting!!!) the river is basically trying to get specifically AK/AQ to fold. Any other hands that are folding, KJ is beating anyway. And obviously, he can't have this insane read that he knows your folding AK there (ie even if he thinks you have AK, there's no way he can know you would fold if he pushes).

                                                                            I don't understand betting the river for value because you think there are plenty of hands he checks behind. Specifically, KT and KJ (and maybe Kx if he is capable of calling with it pf) may call your bet, but every other hand that isn't folding to a river bet, will make a value bet themselves (which you can call). Betting only causes you to lose more when you're behind and you miss out on a tiny bit of value from hands that may fold river anyway (as in, there's no guarentee hands like KT/KJ will call you on river anyway).

                                                                            Obviously, as it played out, it throws a bit of a spanner into the works, but I think it's impossible to understand his line or read him for KJ there.

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                                              more pre, more on the flop, say $100, lead turn

                                                                              It's been bad all nite if that's the case.

                                                                              and villain prob wouldn't notice anything was off if you bet 100 on flop
                                                                              I completely disagree. You are basically saying c-betting half pot is fundamentally bad. How?

                                                                              Making small/smaller c-bets on dry boards if anything is more optimal.

                                                                              And saying the villain won't notice??? So you think you can get away with betting half pot when you miss and 3/4-full pot when you hit? And no one will really notice?

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by Gowl View Post
                                                                                Yeah flop bet is fair enough in that case, and I like your line on the turn.

                                                                                I still dislike betting the river. You can't honestly say that you beat the river to induce a bluff-shove from a hand like KJo?

                                                                                It's interesting that KJ took that line. Most likely, the player is just a bad, non-thinking player, because bluffing (assume he's not value betting!!!) the river is basically trying to get specifically AK/AQ to fold. Any other hands that are folding, KJ is beating anyway. And obviously, he can't have this insane read that he knows your folding AK there (ie even if he thinks you have AK, there's no way he can know you would fold if he pushes).

                                                                                I don't understand betting the river for value because you think there are plenty of hands he checks behind. Specifically, KT and KJ (and maybe Kx if he is capable of calling with it pf) may call your bet, but every other hand that isn't folding to a river bet, will make a value bet themselves (which you can call). Betting only causes you to lose more when you're behind and you miss out on a tiny bit of value from hands that may fold river anyway (as in, there's no guarentee hands like KT/KJ will call you on river anyway).

                                                                                Obviously, as it played out, it throws a bit of a spanner into the works, but I think it's impossible to understand his line or read him for KJ there.
                                                                                some of what your saying makes sense but your theory about why betting the river is bad,is wrong IMO.
                                                                                im simply value betting a strong hand.i dont have to have the nuts every time i value bet,i just have to think i can get called by worse hands.

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Because your out of position, you've got a very strong hand and you want to build a bigger pot. People's calling ranges on flops like this don't change whether you bet 50 or 80%. If someone has 88 or KT or whatever, they'll still call the bigger bet. Betting small oop also makes you more prone to being floated.

                                                                                  I don't mind betting half pot in position sometimes, but again, i'd prefer the bigger bet.

                                                                                  RE: balancing - the last thing in the world i'd be concerned about in a live Dublin cash game is to balance the bet sizing of my continuation betting range. More important is to focus on getting maximum value out of your strongs hands such as TPTK and overpairs.
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                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Villians bluff is pretty fooking heroic imo. Who is that man?

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by jbravado View Post
                                                                                      Villians bluff is pretty fooking heroic imo. Who is that man?
                                                                                      Galway Tommy and i have also been told by him that he had 42 and not KJ like he said.
                                                                                      i did not see the hands my self what he had.

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post
                                                                                        this hand happned about 3 hours ago in 2-5-10 NL game in the fitz.

                                                                                        Reads on villain:
                                                                                        we have been playing for good few hours by now and he started of by spewing alot and being a donk but he got paid of and now has a massive stack.for the past couple of hours though he has been very sensible.has not gotten out of line and has shown no interest in losing money when he dosent need to.

                                                                                        he has played some small pots and mostly won them if it got to show down or else lost a few small ones perhaps.

                                                                                        my image:
                                                                                        i have been fairly active recently i think but have not clashed in a big way with villain.
                                                                                        usually either i c-bet and take it ,or it was multiway and some one else toke it but all smallish pots.
                                                                                        i have not shown down any bluffs either and have not played a huge pot up to this point .
                                                                                        i have won couple of mid sized pots and maybe a semi big one worth a few hundo.

                                                                                        hand :
                                                                                        stacks:
                                                                                        Me:1500
                                                                                        Villain:1200

                                                                                        couple of ppl call for 10 and i make it 50 from SB with AKo.
                                                                                        villain makes the call from BB and every one else folds:

                                                                                        flop(130)
                                                                                        2d 3s Kh

                                                                                        i bet 60 villain calls.

                                                                                        Turn (250)
                                                                                        Qc
                                                                                        i check .villain bets 125.
                                                                                        i call.

                                                                                        river(500)
                                                                                        As
                                                                                        i bet 300 .villain shoves for 1K after thinking about it for 20-30 seconds.

                                                                                        me????
                                                                                        recession my ass, shur tis well for ye!!! lol
                                                                                        Her sky-ness
                                                                                        © 5starpool

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                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Originally posted by Gowl View Post
                                                                                          I completely disagree. You are basically saying c-betting half pot is fundamentally bad. How?
                                                                                          No, I never said anything of the sort.
                                                                                          I said always betting half pot is bad.

                                                                                          I did not say that betting half pot is always bad.

                                                                                          If you can not understand the difference then I don't no where to go from here.

                                                                                          And saying the villain won't notice??? So you think you can get away with betting half pot when you miss and 3/4-full pot when you hit? And no one will really notice?
                                                                                          Where did I ever reference when you hit or when you miss?
                                                                                          I said, in this hand, against this villain. Suggestioning that it's my opinion that this line applies to all cases is ridiculous.

                                                                                          Also, most live donks fail to track the pot size, so they don't think of bets in terms of pot size opting for the actual amount. (the exception is the word "pot"). A lot won't change their calling range, which is why we should bet bigger.

                                                                                          Notice I said most, not all. Just in case you twist that point also.
                                                                                          [quote=Gowl;233595]Yeah flop bet is fair enough in that case, and I like your line on the turn.

                                                                                          I still dislike betting the river. You can't honestly say that you beat the river to induce a bluff-shove from a hand like KJo?
                                                                                          Of course he didn't, he bet for value.


                                                                                          Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post
                                                                                          Galway Tommy and i have also been told by him that he had 42 and not KJ like he said.
                                                                                          i did not see the hands my self what he had.
                                                                                          One of those times were you wish you didn't show so quick (as he should of been first).
                                                                                          Do you believe him?

                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post
                                                                                            some of what your saying makes sense but your theory about why betting the river is bad,is wrong IMO.
                                                                                            im simply value betting a strong hand.i dont have to have the nuts every time i value bet,i just have to think i can get called by worse hands.

                                                                                            OK, but what worse hands exactly are calling you?
                                                                                            The reason checking would be bad is if you feel you are MISSING value, and I don't think you are. The two pair hands will still bet river, and the hands beating you will still bet river. imo, the only hands you're losing value to is KJ and KT, and as I said before, it's debatable as to whether they will even call a value bet.

                                                                                            Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                                                            No, I never said anything of the sort.
                                                                                            I said always betting half pot is bad.

                                                                                            I did not say that betting half pot is always bad.

                                                                                            If you can not understand the difference then I don't no where to go from here.

                                                                                            You said 'then your bet sizing has been bad all night'. I'd interprete this to mean that betting half pot is bad, or even, that the general theory of having your standard c-bet to be 50% pot bet is bad. Obviously making the same size bet in 100% of cases is bad, but having the general standard of the half pot c-bet is not bad imo.

                                                                                            Where did I ever reference when you hit or when you miss?
                                                                                            I said, in this hand, against this villain. Suggestioning that it's my opinion that this line applies to all cases is ridiculous.

                                                                                            Also, most live donks fail to track the pot size, so they don't think of bets in terms of pot size opting for the actual amount. (the exception is the word "pot"). A lot won't change their calling range, which is why we should bet bigger.

                                                                                            Again, I think it's just ridiculous to make the claim that most players won't think in terms of pot size or notice when you change your bet. Maybe if you know this player is a classified fish and 100% won't notice, then fine, maybe you can say this, but given the OPs description, I don't think you can safely make that assumption.

                                                                                            Notice I said most, not all. Just in case you twist that point also.
                                                                                            Yeah flop bet is fair enough in that case, and I like your line on the turn.


                                                                                            Of course he didn't, he bet for value.

                                                                                            Already addressed this point. What I actually mean is, if you make the claim that "yeah, I made the bet on the river to induce the bluff shove" then maybe you can say it's a good bet, but I think if the reason for betting is for value alone, then it's a bad bet.

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              Originally posted by jbravado View Post
                                                                                              Villians bluff is pretty fooking heroic imo. Who is that man?
                                                                                              I don't think it's heroic at all. I think it's a terrible bluff where he reps absolutely nothing and should get looked up by worse holdinga than what Ehsan actually had in the hand. Pure spew.
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                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post
                                                                                                this hand happned about 3 hours ago in 2-5-10 NL game in the fitz.

                                                                                                Reads on villain:
                                                                                                we have been playing for good few hours by now and he started of by spewing alot and being a donk but he got paid of and now has a massive stack.for the past couple of hours though he has been very sensible.has not gotten out of line and has shown no interest in losing money when he dosent need to.

                                                                                                he has played some small pots and mostly won them if it got to show down or else lost a few small ones perhaps.

                                                                                                my image:
                                                                                                i have been fairly active recently i think but have not clashed in a big way with villain.
                                                                                                usually either i c-bet and take it ,or it was multiway and some one else toke it but all smallish pots.
                                                                                                i have not shown down any bluffs either and have not played a huge pot up to this point .
                                                                                                i have won couple of mid sized pots and maybe a semi big one worth a few hundo.

                                                                                                hand :
                                                                                                stacks:
                                                                                                Me:1500
                                                                                                Villain:1200

                                                                                                couple of ppl call for 10 and i make it 50 from SB with AKo.
                                                                                                villain makes the call from BB and every one else folds:

                                                                                                flop(130)
                                                                                                2d 3s Kh

                                                                                                i bet 60 villain calls.

                                                                                                Turn (250)
                                                                                                Qc
                                                                                                i check .villain bets 125.
                                                                                                i call.

                                                                                                river(500)
                                                                                                As
                                                                                                i bet 300 .villain shoves for 1K after thinking about it for 20-30 seconds.

                                                                                                me????
                                                                                                ok i havent read the rest of thread but just the first post....... and i think it is pretty straight forward and the way i would play it is

                                                                                                pre flop bet is fine

                                                                                                would prob bet 80-90 on flop (but your bet fine)

                                                                                                turn is the key i think when you check an he bet half the pot its pretty standard (he hasnt got KK, QQ, 22, 33 nor 45 of J10) if he is loose he could of flop 2 pair but unlikely so i think he know has KQ but i FLAT

                                                                                                river comes and i think you have just rivered him but i would normal check.... call?

                                                                                                just my twopence worth and probly not the way annyone else would play

                                                                                                please tell he didnt have 45

                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Originally posted by Gowl View Post
                                                                                                  You said 'then your bet sizing has been bad all night'. I'd interprete this to mean that betting half pot is bad, or even, that the general theory of having your standard c-bet to be 50% pot bet is bad. Obviously making the same size bet in 100% of cases is bad, but having the general standard of the half pot c-bet is not bad imo.
                                                                                                  Why are you trying to interprete anything? My post is in plain english. Always c-betting the same % of the pot is bad. Regardless of %, always 50%, always 75%, always 100%. All bad.

                                                                                                  In this case, I also think that we are losing value by betting only 50%. (I'm not sure why you are arguing this as you said the said in your first post)


                                                                                                  Again, I think it's just ridiculous to make the claim that most players won't think in terms of pot size or notice when you change your bet. Maybe if you know this player is a classified fish and 100% won't notice, then fine, maybe you can say this, but given the OPs description, I don't think you can safely make that assumption.
                                                                                                  Again, not what I said. Serious, reading comprehension FTW.
                                                                                                  I said most live donks. As in most bad players. The OP is clearly described as such. "spewing alot and being a donk"


                                                                                                  Already addressed this point. What I actually mean is, if you make the claim that "yeah, I made the bet on the river to induce the bluff shove" then maybe you can say it's a good bet, but I think if the reason for betting is for value alone, then it's a bad bet
                                                                                                  I seen you already addressed that, and it was bad logic imo.
                                                                                                  Basically, you said that we should check as the hands that call bet anyway. This obviously means that you check call.

                                                                                                  The assumption that all the hands, that call a bet from us, also bet the river (if we check) is ridiculous.
                                                                                                  To keep it simple, we can ignore hands that fold to a bet and also check behind, as we have no more to gain from these. We can also ignore hands that beat us as they obviously bet river.

                                                                                                  In terms of maximising value;
                                                                                                  Worse pair hands, actually all worse hands, should check behind the river. Take KQ, why bet the river, what does Eshan call with that it beats. Nothing. So basically turning it into a bluff. I think even a bad live donk can see that at this point when the Ace rivers (making lots of better 2 pairs)
                                                                                                  So, for max value. It your think the villain often bluffs the river with worse, then check/call is fine. If you don't think he bluffs often enough then lead.
                                                                                                  Given the strength shown by Gholi already in the hand, I have no reason to believe the villain bluffs often enough, so I lead.
                                                                                                  Last edited by Mellor; 20-01-11, 23:32.

                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    Originally posted by Mellor View Post

                                                                                                    Again, not what I said. Serious, reading comprehension FTW.
                                                                                                    I said most live donks. As in most bad players. The OP is clearly described as such. "spewing alot and being a donk"



                                                                                                    I seen you already addressed that, and it was bad logic imo.
                                                                                                    Basically, you said that we should check as the hands that call bet anyway. This obviously means that you check call.

                                                                                                    The assumption that all the hands, that call a bet from us, also bet the river (if we check) is ridiculous.
                                                                                                    To keep it simple, we can ignore hands that fold to a bet and also check behind, as we have no more to gain from these. We can also ignore hands that beat us as they obviously bet river.

                                                                                                    In terms of maximising value;
                                                                                                    Worse pair hands, actually all worse hands, should check behind the river. Take KQ, why bet the river, what does Eshan call with that it beats. Nothing. So basically turning it into a bluff. I think even a bad live donk can see that at this point when the Ace rivers (making lots of better 2 pairs)
                                                                                                    So, for max value. It your think the villain often bluffs the river with worse, then check/call is fine. If you don't think he bluffs often enough then lead.
                                                                                                    Given the strength shown by Gholi already in the hand, I have no reason to believe the villain bluffs often enough, so I lead.
                                                                                                    Reads on villain:
                                                                                                    we have been playing for good few hours by now and he started of by spewing alot and being a donk but he got paid of and now has a massive stack.for the past couple of hours though he has been very sensible.has not gotten out of line and has shown no interest in losing money when he dosent need to.

                                                                                                    he has played some small pots and mostly won them if it got to show down or else lost a few small ones perhap
                                                                                                    imo, you can't assume this player will not realise that you are dramatically changing your bet sizing. Regardless of whether it is good/bad, you have been betting 50% all night, to change it now, and assume he won't notice is wrong and a bad play imo.


                                                                                                    I've explained why I think checking the river is the most +EV play, so we'll have to agree to disagree
                                                                                                    Last edited by Gowl; 21-01-11, 08:39.

                                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                                      #51
                                                                                                      Originally posted by Gowl View Post
                                                                                                      imo, you can't assume this player will not realise that you are dramatically changing your bet sizing. Regardless of whether it is good/bad, you have been betting 50% all night, to change it now, and assume he won't notice is wrong and a bad play imo.
                                                                                                      I already said betting 50% all night was a mistake, the above reinforces that. Using previous mistakes to justify others in a theory thread is pointless.

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