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    50nl

    I figure i played most streets bad

    Villian is 46/6/6.0 over 16 hands


    No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    saw flop | saw showdown

    SB ($50.25)
    Hero (BB) ($55.40)
    UTG ($50)
    MP ($46.50)
    Button ($54.84)

    Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, 4
    UTG bets $1.75, 1 fold, Button calls $1.75, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.25

    Flop: ($5.50) 5, 3, 4 (3 players)
    Hero checks, UTG bets $4, Button raises $8, Hero calls $8, UTG calls $4

    Turn: ($29.50) A (3 players)
    Hero checks, UTG checks, Button bets $22.50, Hero calls $22.50, 1 fold

    River: ($74.50) 4 (2 players)
    Hero bets $23.15 (All-In), Button calls $22.59 (All-In)

    Total pot: $119.68

    Results below:
    Button had 5, 5 (full house, fives over fours).
    Hero had 5, 4 (full house, fours over fives).
    Outcome: Button won $116.68
    Last edited by tipp86; 18-08-10, 11:54.
    Pm for rakeback deals

    #2
    fold pre flop
    lead the flop
    c/f turn
    river is fine as played

    Comment


      #3
      Pre is grand with a fish in the hand.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
        Pre is grand with a fish in the hand.
        not with an UTG open

        Comment


          #5
          UTG open makes it even better. You're hand has great equity and implied odds vs a tight range, especially with the overlay of dead money from senor fish.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
            UTG open makes it even better. You're hand has great equity and implied odds vs a tight range, especially with the overlay of dead money from senor fish.
            against both of their ranges you roughly have 25% equity (stoved)

            I could be wrong but I think you need >30% to make this a profitable call pre flop

            Comment


              #7
              Hot and cold equities dont really matter that much when there are future streets to play. Implied odds are the important thing and imo they's plenty of them here!

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                Hot and cold equities dont really matter that much when there are future streets to play. Implied odds are the important thing and imo they's plenty of them here!
                I disagree

                we are check folding the majority of flops so you cant just disregard equity. small mistakes pre flop lead to larger ones post flop. In this situation we have a huge amount of reverse implied odds (im not referring to getting it in boat over boat btw) Like what are we hoping to flop?

                -our flush draw is likely to be dominated
                -a bare straight draw is going to end up with a decision that will suck with possibly only 5-6 outs
                - even if we flop 2 pair our hand is really vulnerable.

                Comment


                  #9
                  What about all the times UTG ships the loot with 99+ on boards that we crush and the fish does the same. If it comes 458, 442, A44 etc we have huge IO as people just wont fold overpairs on them and the fish won't fold A9o. Like I'm not saying its a money printing spot and I fold here HU with UTG every time, but with a fish in tow its definitely a playable hand.

                  Anyway, I'm trying to write lectures for your damn course. Stop distracting me!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    What about the times the utg opener has a10o and the flop comes J44..We have just hit our miracle flop and we're still not getting paid.

                    My point being that the chances of us hitting a flop that we are sure we are ahead on are pretty slim and even there is only a certain portion of ranges that we get paid by.
                    Pining for Wa'erford

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by sligboi View Post
                      What about the times the utg opener has a10o and the flop comes J44..We have just hit our miracle flop and we're still not getting paid.

                      My point being that the chances of us hitting a flop that we are sure we are ahead on are pretty slim and even there is only a certain portion of ranges that we get paid by.
                      balanced by the times it comes 378 with one diamond and we checkraise his cbet when he has ATo and we win the pot

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Id be trying to get in as many pots as possible with the fish, 54s oop might be a tiny bit below my calling range though.

                        As played get it in on the flop for sure, ton of awful cards/action killers.
                        Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                        I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                        None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Ok il throw out what i think about each street.

                          Pre - I dont think either move is that bad its never a call with one player. I may 3 bet a cutoff or btn raise with this hand.

                          Flop - Anyone raise in my spot ? I personally think raising is folding out a lot of hands we get value from. I dont like the way it leaves the original bettor in for cheap.

                          Turn - Toughest spot imo. Anyone that folds this what do ye put ahead of ye here ?

                          River - Simple spot really
                          Pm for rakeback deals

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Also do we assume him a fish with such a small sample ?
                            Pm for rakeback deals

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                              balanced by the times it comes 378 with one diamond and we checkraise his cbet when he has ATo and we win the pot
                              Rebalanced by the times he has 77/88/any overpr and reships on us
                              Pining for Wa'erford

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by tipp86 View Post
                                Also do we assume him a fish with such a small sample ?
                                Yes.

                                If he was 46/6 over 6 hands id assume hes a fish.
                                Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                                I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                                None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Preflop is fine. Loose but fine given the fish is in the hand.


                                  I think turn is a fold.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                                    fold pre flop
                                    lead the flop
                                    c/f turn
                                    river is fine as played
                                    jesus, talk about being results oriented, apart from the turn the standard is to do everything opposite from above

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Slice Of Life View Post
                                      jesus, talk about being results oriented, apart from the turn the standard is to do everything opposite from above
                                      sorry your just wrong about me being results orientated

                                      Iv already given my reasons for folding pre

                                      Leading is best on the flop imo but Id like to hear what you would do?

                                      Turn is a c/f but again id like to hear what you would do?

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Ya, agree with the two above, looks fine till the turn, might have found a fold there as he's rarely valuebetting worse on that card now but not a terrible call by any means, given his stats.

                                        @bubbleking,ya a flop lead is fine too on this flop and especially if utg doesnt cbet alot and you think it will get checked around too often but either line is fine on the flop and I'd doubt its a big mistake to do one over the other without better reads.
                                        Last edited by Line Us; 18-08-10, 15:44.
                                        "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          @Bubbleking

                                          Leading the flop is a terrible decision imo, lets the UTG get away from his big aces. Give him a chance to fire a c-bet and get some more money from him that way.

                                          There is far more in his range that fires a cbet than calls a donk bet, he will also be more wary of you on later streets.

                                          My standard would be to C/R this flop. Vs the raise, I am kind of stuck, and not sure if I am calling or raising. I think 4betting could be seen as very bad, but there are plenty of players who will play JJ as the nuts here, also lots of overcards with FDs that are happy to gamble. Trick is to identify these before you make the decision imo.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by emmet02 View Post
                                            @Bubbleking

                                            Leading the flop is a terrible decision imo, lets the UTG get away from his big aces. Give him a chance to fire a c-bet and get some more money from him that way.

                                            There is far more in his range that fires a cbet than calls a donk bet, he will also be more wary of you on later streets.

                                            My standard would be to C/R this flop. Vs the raise, I am kind of stuck, and not sure if I am calling or raising. I think 4betting could be seen as very bad, but there are plenty of players who will play JJ as the nuts here, also lots of overcards with FDs that are happy to gamble. Trick is to identify these before you make the decision imo.
                                            I like to lead this flop a lot and the times UTG folds when I have a set, 2 pair is balanced by the times he folds the best hand when I have a draw/air. Besides reg heads / tags really dont like players taking different lines. Im getting a lot of success lately by donking flops. Plus its fun and it tilts the bejasus outta people

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by emmet02 View Post
                                              @Bubbleking

                                              Leading the flop is a terrible decision imo, lets the UTG get away from his big aces. Give him a chance to fire a c-bet and get some more money from him that way.

                                              There is far more in his range that fires a cbet than calls a donk bet, he will also be more wary of you on later streets.

                                              My standard would be to C/R this flop. Vs the raise, I am kind of stuck, and not sure if I am calling or raising. I think 4betting could be seen as very bad, but there are plenty of players who will play JJ as the nuts here, also lots of overcards with FDs that are happy to gamble. Trick is to identify these before you make the decision imo.
                                              I dont think its terrible at all on this specific flop. Utg will not cbet this at the same frequency that he would most flops so we wont always have the oppurtunity to check raise. I would definitely mix it up betweeen the two in this spot anyway.
                                              "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                                                I like to lead this flop a lot and the times UTG folds when I have a set, 2 pair is balanced by the times he folds the best hand when I have a draw/air. Besides reg heads / tags really dont like players taking different lines. Im getting a lot of success lately by donking flops. Plus its fun and it tilts the bejasus outta people
                                                You're getting him to fold hands that pay us money though, that's certainly -EV

                                                At 50nl, its all about value value value, nobody is worried too much about balancing ranges, leading this flop without a piece of it into 2 players is fairly nonsense imo. What hands do you expect him to call with that doesn't fire a Cbet? What hands do you expect him to raise with that wouldn't call a C/R?

                                                By "getting success" from donking flops, do you mean getting people to fold? Or getting people to call with random trash?

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by emmet02 View Post

                                                  By "getting success" from donking flops, do you mean getting people to fold? Or getting people to call with random trash?
                                                  both really - If your playing against me and its the 3rd time iv donked into you this session it causes players to overplay marginal hands and stack off light

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                                                    Plus its fun and it tilts the bejasus outta people
                                                    Alas we're trying to find the most +EV play and not whats gives us kicks. On such a coordinate flop I just don't like taking the iniatiative 3 way, your going to be in a horrible spot if we get raised, tons of horrible turns if we get flatted and we're going to be playing a guessing game.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Slice Of Life View Post
                                                      Alas we're trying to find the most +EV play and not whats gives us kicks. On such a coordinate flop I just don't like taking the iniatiative 3 way, your going to be in a horrible spot if we get raised, tons of horrible turns if we get flatted and we're going to be playing a guessing game.
                                                      Ok I'll put it another way - what hands are you leading here?

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                                                        Ok I'll put it another way - what hands are you leading here?
                                                        personnally i don't have a leading range in raised pots, I find it too hard to balance apart from vs a loose passive fish, so I wouldn't be leading anything here.

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by Slice Of Life View Post
                                                          personnally i don't have a leading range in raised pots, I find it too hard to balance apart from vs a loose passive fish, so I wouldn't be leading anything here.
                                                          not being smart but you really need to get a leading range for this type of position. What range of hands do you c/r on this flop?

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                                                            not being smart but you really need to get a leading range for this type of position. What range of hands do you c/r on this flop?
                                                            why?

                                                            genuine question

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                                                              not being smart but you really need to get a leading range for this type of position. What range of hands do you c/r on this flop?
                                                              why do you think its necessary to have a leading range?

                                                              It depends on which player bet and their sizing whether I'd c/r but generally I'd c/r 76, A2, sets, some big draws, rarely air. I'd also c/r two pairs here in some instances but would need better reads in the opening post.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by emmet02 View Post
                                                                why?

                                                                genuine question
                                                                your leading range is the same as your c/r range. Its cheaper to do it with air and more profitable when villain decides to play back (stack off)

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                                                                  your leading range is the same as your c/r range. Its cheaper to do it with air and more profitable when villain decides to play back (stack off)
                                                                  but surely you want to build a pot vs his marginal pairs by c/ring.

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by Slice Of Life View Post
                                                                    but surely you want to build a pot vs his marginal pairs by c/ring.
                                                                    we c/r and a marginal pair is folding

                                                                    we lead and hes more than likely to call at least 1 street and probably 2/3 depending on board texture

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                                                                      your leading range is the same as your c/r range. Its cheaper to do it with air and more profitable when villain decides to play back (stack off)
                                                                      Are you saying you sometimes lead this flop with air? That's pretty spewy imo

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by TrEMOlo1 View Post
                                                                        Are you saying you sometimes lead this flop with air? That's pretty spewy imo
                                                                        no I wasn't talking about this flop as I would never lead the airball into 2 players the topic had been derailed somewhat

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                                                                          we c/r and a marginal pair is folding

                                                                          we lead and hes more than likely to call at least 1 street and probably 2/3 depending on board texture
                                                                          it's funny the way you back up your points by describing villain as a spew monkey that plays back at every lead yet he bet folds everything apart from the nuts...

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            nope

                                                                            say the pot is 10 for easiness of maths and we have a 345ss flop

                                                                            I lead for 7 with all sets, all straights, all draws, all 2 pairs and air

                                                                            villain plays back with what exactly? all pairs above the board, draws and sets. He sometimes plays back with air also but this isnt a great line for him to take. IMO an UTG opener never has 2 pair in this spot so we can disregard that. With my made hands I am going to value town him so bad and I can easily fold my air on the turn.

                                                                            Now if we c/r in the same spot with the same range v the same range we are still getting the same value on our made hands but it makes our air more expensive to buff with

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Its fine to have no leading range at SSNL. Much the same for a calling 3bets oop range.

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                Lol just deleted my post cant focus on what i want to say will repost later or tomorrow.
                                                                                Pm for rakeback deals

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Am I the only one who thinks check calling that flop oop versus 2 players when around 40% of the deck completes a realistic draw is not a good spot? I would rather fold or jam it after the reraise.

                                                                                  After a draw gets there on the turn and the button is still happy to put his money in I think you're losing money by calling.

                                                                                  Was were you planning to do on what turns when you check called the reraise on the flop?

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by hotspur View Post
                                                                                    Am I the only one who thinks check calling that flop oop versus 2 players when around 40% of the deck completes a realistic draw is not a good spot? I would rather fold or jam it after the reraise.

                                                                                    After a draw gets there on the turn and the button is still happy to put his money in I think you're losing money by calling.

                                                                                    Was were you planning to do on what turns when you check called the reraise on the flop?
                                                                                    I cant make sense of your last question did you write it incorrect ?

                                                                                    Ok by raising the flop what hands that you beat can call you ?

                                                                                    Ok you will take down around 30bbs a good % of the time. But if he shoves you are crushed a high % of the time mind you not allways.
                                                                                    Pm for rakeback deals

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by tipp86 View Post
                                                                                      I cant make sense of your last question did you write it incorrect ?

                                                                                      Ok by raising the flop what hands that you beat can call you ?

                                                                                      Ok you will take down around 30bbs a good % of the time. But if he shoves you are crushed a high % of the time mind you not allways.
                                                                                      Plenty of people will stack off with an overpair on that flop.
                                                                                      Hes playing 46/6, hes ridic bad.

                                                                                      There are far too many bad turns to flat.
                                                                                      Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                                                                                      I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                                                                                      None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Reads on utg are important here imo.

                                                                                        Pre is fine if utg is tag

                                                                                        I'd lead flop, if you check and it goes bet, call or bet, raise raising looks redic strong. Bet/3bet is a better line here imo, hope either utg or aggrofish raises. As played I'm cold 3 betting flop unless you think utg raises a lot if you flat. there is loads of value in raising fish

                                                                                        I c/f turn
                                                                                        Last edited by handofgod; 19-08-10, 11:03.

                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          I'm not sure I like calling 2 players, 1 UTG, with what is essentially 5 high.
                                                                                          I think it -EV in the long-run.

                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Originally posted by emmet02 View Post
                                                                                            @Bubbleking

                                                                                            Leading the flop is a terrible decision imo, lets the UTG get away from his big aces. Give him a chance to fire a c-bet and get some more money from him that way.

                                                                                            There is far more in his range that fires a cbet than calls a donk bet, he will also be more wary of you on later streets.
                                                                                            Originally posted by emmet02 View Post
                                                                                            You're getting him to fold hands that pay us money though, that's certainly -EV
                                                                                            Can you name some hands that cbet this flop, after being called by fish and tag, that dont call a bet?

                                                                                            Originally posted by Slice Of Life View Post
                                                                                            personnally i don't have a leading range in raised pots, I find it too hard to balance apart from vs a loose passive fish, so I wouldn't be leading anything here.
                                                                                            Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                                                                                            Its fine to have no leading range at SSNL. Much the same for a calling 3bets oop range.
                                                                                            I think you have to have a leading range in spots like this, ie multiway pots , especially with a fish in hand. Flops like this get checked thru lots, and its standard to bet unless you are happy for ths to happen. Never leading heads up is prob fine, although I think there are some merits in bubblekings argument

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              Much prefer donking in this spot. It makes the hand play much easier to play, especially against a fishy like this. I am not sure about the call pre either.

                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                I think Donking at these stakes is pretty bad in this spot. People will c-bet way too much and will stack off pretty light to a c/r

                                                                                                Opr

                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Originally posted by tipp86 View Post
                                                                                                  I cant make sense of your last question did you write it incorrect ?

                                                                                                  Ok by raising the flop what hands that you beat can call you ?

                                                                                                  Ok you will take down around 30bbs a good % of the time. But if he shoves you are crushed a high % of the time mind you not allways.
                                                                                                  My garbled last question was what was your plan for which turn cards when you flat call the flop.

                                                                                                  The flop was the most draw heavy flop in the history of the universe, you are getting called by draws all day long in that spot if you repop, and if he shoves you are not in the least bit crushed a high % of the time imo. Plenty of people will jam it with Ax of spades.

                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    Yeah i'm not crazy about donking either. I'd rather c/r and build a bigger pot where tons of people at these stakes will stack off with 99 here.

                                                                                                    Pre is ok with a fish in there imo. Not crazy about it but it's not that bad imo.

                                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                                      #51
                                                                                                      Originally posted by hotspur View Post
                                                                                                      My garbled last question was what was your plan for which turn cards when you flat call the flop.

                                                                                                      The flop was the most draw heavy flop in the history of the universe, you are getting called by draws all day long in that spot if you repop, and if he shoves you are not in the least bit crushed a high % of the time imo. Plenty of people will jam it with Ax of spades.
                                                                                                      Ok im sort of agreeing with your point when i study the hand further.

                                                                                                      I guess i didnt put great thought into my plan for turn cards as now looking back i cant really get a turn card that will help my opponents stack off with less shoving the flop probably seems the best move.
                                                                                                      Last edited by tipp86; 20-08-10, 14:50.
                                                                                                      Pm for rakeback deals

                                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                                        #52
                                                                                                        I dont think leading is that bad at all. i don't think he'll cbet that much. Get it in on the flop i suppose.

                                                                                                        Comment

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