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    More to this than it seems??

    Really strange hand I played in the sports last night. Would like some thoughts on river play especially. I will post up the hand first, then give you my thoughts on the hand. I would ask anyone that reads the hand or wants to give advice to really think hard about the hand first.

    SE 1/2/5 PLHE
    Villain circa 300 Mid Position
    Villain is a Laggy enough player, prone to huge mistakes esp oop but a good thinking player and def the most competent opponent at the table imo. He is the type of player that would enjoy the challenge of getting into pots with me.

    Hero circa 500 Straddle.
    I have been playing quite well with limited cards, playing position well and picking up a lot of uncontested pots.

    Anyway,

    Villain raises to €15 from mp.
    Folded to Hero in straddle. I have 2 red Jacks.

    I decide to only call. I mix it up here between raising to €40 and just flatting. Thoughts on pre flop are not needed really.

    FLOP: Ac 3c 7s (€35)

    I check, Villain checks.

    TURN: Ks

    I check, Villain bets €30.
    I call?? Possible ranges for villain at this point??

    RIVER: Qc (€95)

    I check, Villain bets €90

    Thoughts?? I'll give my thoughts in a bit.

    #2
    Don't play too much cash. But given the way the hand is played, i would flat the turn vs that villain and fold the river. Your hand is underrepped and only a bluff catcher on the turn. Only profitable to continue on the turn if he is bluffing on the turn a large % of the time as he more than likely will fire the river. His bet sizing looks suspicious though. Still a fold for me.

    Comment


      #3
      I would have folded the turn, villan is much more likely to bet his air hands on the flop and perhaps take a pot control line with weakish Aces and pairs that he doesn't want to turn into a bluff like 99-KK.

      On the turn I am sure his range is any Ace and most Ks would be a value betting now seeing as you probably never have an A here and most likely a hand like TT or lower.

      I'd fold river easily enough.

      Comment


        #4
        dunno why you wouldn't just raise pre since everyone seems to spaz out so much vs straddles.

        but yeah i'd just fold the turn and certainly the river.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by digiman View Post
          I would have folded the turn, villan is much more likely to bet his air hands on the flop and perhaps take a pot control line with weakish Aces and pairs that he doesn't want to turn into a bluff like 99-KK.

          On the turn I am sure his range is any Ace and most Ks would be a value betting now seeing as you probably never have an A here and most likely a hand like TT or lower.

          I'd fold river easily enough.
          This.

          Also, I'm giving my thoughts on PF. I think you should re-raise.

          Comment


            #6
            You're 60 BBs deep against a guy who wants to play pots against you and you're in a position where people expect people to spazz out, I know you don't wanna talk about it but I'd be genuinely curious about pre flop. I'm not saying you were wrong I assume you had your reasons I'd be curious to know what they were though because with the information given this seems like the worlds easiest 3 bet.

            I actually think the river could be a call with more specific reads. Does this full pot bet totally polarize him to 2 pair+ or air, someone people are capable of making that bet with a weak ace and some people certainly aren't? Does he always c-bet a flush draw on the flop/a flopped strong hand/a decent top pair? Fold as a default but with the right reads I could see calling being okay.
            "In the world, there are many kings but there is only one God. I am God, I am El Tren" :{)

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Downtown View Post
              Really strange hand I played in the sports last night. Would like some thoughts on river play especially. I will post up the hand first, then give you my thoughts on the hand. I would ask anyone that reads the hand or wants to give advice to really think hard about the hand first.

              SE 1/2/5 PLHE
              Villain circa 300 Mid Position
              Villain is a Laggy enough player, prone to huge mistakes esp oop but a good thinking player and def the most competent opponent at the table imo. He is the type of player that would enjoy the challenge of getting into pots with me.

              Hero circa 500 Straddle.
              I have been playing quite well with limited cards, playing position well and picking up a lot of uncontested pots.

              Anyway,

              Villain raises to €15 from mp.
              Folded to Hero in straddle. I have 2 red Jacks.

              I decide to only call. I mix it up here between raising to €40 and just flatting. Thoughts on pre flop are not needed really.

              FLOP: Ac 3c 7s (€35)

              I check, Villain checks.

              TURN: Ks

              I check, Villain bets €30.
              I call?? Possible ranges for villain at this point??

              RIVER: Qc (€95)

              I check, Villain bets €90

              Thoughts?? I'll give my thoughts in a bit.
              Also, highlighted bits are pretty lol!!

              Comment


                #8
                Fold turn. Fold river. Raise pre too.
                This may or may not be an original thought of my own.
                All efforts were made to make this thought original but with the abundance of thoughts in the world the originality of this thought cannot be guaranteed.
                The author is not liable for any issue arising from the platitudinous nature of this post.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by CaptainPlanet View Post
                  Fold turn. Fold river. Raise pre too.
                  Bingo Bongo Bango...love the way the op rates himself very highly while butchering this hand..

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Sledgejammer View Post
                    You're 60 BBs deep against a guy who wants to play pots against you and you're in a position where people expect people to spazz out, I know you don't wanna talk about it but I'd be genuinely curious about pre flop. I'm not saying you were wrong I assume you had your reasons I'd be curious to know what they were though because with the information given this seems like the worlds easiest 3 bet.

                    I actually think the river could be a call with more specific reads. Does this full pot bet totally polarize him to 2 pair+ or air, someone people are capable of making that bet with a weak ace and some people certainly aren't? Does he always c-bet a flush draw on the flop/a flopped strong hand/a decent top pair? Fold as a default but with the right reads I could see calling being okay.
                    This is a good post imo.

                    You certainly cant expect people not mention pre when you suggest you didnt raise to "mix it up". His line looks a bit nuts or bluffskis and there are defo ppl who I would call against if they played it like this.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by digiman View Post
                      Also, highlighted bits are pretty lol!!
                      Originally posted by CaptainPlanet View Post
                      Fold turn. Fold river. Raise pre too.
                      The highlighted bits are exactly for this reason. I know the merits of raising preflop and don't need advice on that aspect of the hand. I raise her 90% of the time but didnt this time. I'm not saying that not raising here was not a mistake, in fact I feel it was, but i'm looking for thoughts on the hand as played.I felt I could get more value in this instance by calling. Im looking for thoughts on the hand as played.

                      The reason I asked people to really think about this hand is because it looks like an obvious fold on river. I do think there is alot more to this hand though and the reason I put it up.

                      Villain c bets flops with all aces, flush draws. His range for playing all 3 streets like this is very narrow. Prob only KQ, sometimes AA, QJss, Q10ss, 77, 33, KK.

                      Thats not very many hands. His pot sizing and bet on the river does not look like a value bet. It looks like a bluff to me in many ways.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Jaysoose View Post
                        Bingo Bongo Bango...love the way the op rates himself very highly while butchering this hand..
                        Great post. Very helpful to me.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Of course raise pre but you know that.

                          Imo and that is the opinion of a weak cash player. He has you beat.

                          Would Cbeting the flop be bad here? I mean maybe we could take it down here with a strong Cbet ?

                          Would I be wrong in thinking this people/

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                            Villain c bets flops with all aces, flush draws. His range for playing all 3 streets like this is very narrow. Prob only KQ, sometimes AA, QJss, Q10ss, 77, 33, KK.

                            Thats not very many hands. His pot sizing and bet on the river does not look like a value bet. It looks like a bluff to me in many ways.
                            He can def have QQ, a lot of pairs and bad aces too. I'd imagine there are a few more spade combos in there too on the river. He could prob have K10c+ too.
                            River could be a call but like was said, if it was it'll be so player specific and read specific that any comments on this spot in general are pointless.
                            This may or may not be an original thought of my own.
                            All efforts were made to make this thought original but with the abundance of thoughts in the world the originality of this thought cannot be guaranteed.
                            The author is not liable for any issue arising from the platitudinous nature of this post.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              You snapped it off and won and got berated for it and now you want us all to tell you how smart you are so you will feel vindicated. Good man go get yourself a lollipop.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                                The highlighted bits are exactly for this reason. I know the merits of raising preflop and don't need advice on that aspect of the hand. I raise her 90% of the time but didnt this time. I'm not saying that not raising here was not a mistake, in fact I feel it was, but i'm looking for thoughts on the hand as played.I felt I could get more value in this instance by calling. Im looking for thoughts on the hand as played.

                                The reason I asked people to really think about this hand is because it looks like an obvious fold on river. I do think there is alot more to this hand though and the reason I put it up.

                                Villain c bets flops with all aces, flush draws. His range for playing all 3 streets like this is very narrow. Prob only KQ, sometimes AA, QJss, Q10ss, 77, 33, KK.

                                Thats not very many hands. His pot sizing and bet on the river does not look like a value bet. It looks like a bluff to me in many ways.
                                Of course there are other lines you can take on the river, but the thing is you usually need to have some pretty specific reads to be able to do that. Like I could tell you to turn your hand into a bluff here as villan probably never has a flush here, but can he even lay down A8o to you? Villan might level himself into thinking that you are the next durrrr and are just making a move on him for all we know

                                The thing with respsonding to live hands its just so hard to know how the villan can be thinking when its pretty hard for you to give us good reads or other info as you probably only have played a few hours with him anyway?

                                Like online if you see someone is beating 1/2 then usually their thought process only goes so far compared to someone who is beating 2/4+ for instance but you just don't know that in live games, all you can do is assume they are most likely really bad. In hands like this all someone can tell you is the most +EV line with the information you have given and that has been posted a few times already.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by pok3rplaya View Post
                                  You snapped it off and won and got berated for it and now you want us all to tell you how smart you are so you will feel vindicated. Good man go get yourself a lollipop.
                                  your sum twat!

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by CaptainPlanet View Post
                                    He can def have QQ, a lot of pairs and bad aces too. I'd imagine there are a few more spade combos in there too on the river. He could prob have K10c+ too.
                                    River could be a call but like was said, if it was it'll be so player specific and read specific that any comments on this spot in general are pointless.
                                    Yeh def QQ, not likely K10c, he bets that on the flop. Can have smaller pairs too. He can be bluffing here with the best hand imo alot. a hand like Q10ss. Unless he has a set or KQ, I think its pretty clear he is not betting for value. Add that with the bet size and I am near 100% sure he is not betting for value.

                                    Originally posted by pok3rplaya View Post
                                    You snapped it off and won and got berated for it and now you want us all to tell you how smart you are so you will feel vindicated. Good man go get yourself a lollipop.
                                    Not what happened. another great post.

                                    Originally posted by Gimmeabreak
                                    you played it perfectly. fck the haters.
                                    Not saying I did in the slightest Noel, just think its an interesting spot.

                                    Originally posted by MegaSin View Post
                                    Of course raise pre but you know that.

                                    Imo and that is the opinion of a weak cash player. He has you beat.

                                    Would Cbeting the flop be bad here? I mean maybe we could take it down here with a strong Cbet ?

                                    Would I be wrong in thinking this people/
                                    I am not in position and not the pre flop raiser. Against Villain donk betting without the goods is not a profitable play.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                                      The highlighted bits are exactly for this reason. I know the merits of raising preflop and don't need advice on that aspect of the hand. I raise her 90% of the time but didnt this time. I'm not saying that not raising here was not a mistake, in fact I feel it was, but i'm looking for thoughts on the hand as played.I felt I could get more value in this instance by calling. Im looking for thoughts on the hand as played.

                                      The reason I asked people to really think about this hand is because it looks like an obvious fold on river. I do think there is alot more to this hand though and the reason I put it up.

                                      Villain c bets flops with all aces, flush draws. His range for playing all 3 streets like this is very narrow. Prob only KQ, sometimes AA, QJss, Q10ss, 77, 33, KK.

                                      Thats not very many hands. His pot sizing and bet on the river does not look like a value bet. It looks like a bluff to me in many ways.
                                      Just on the bolded bit first, his bet on the river is always for value imo. When i seen the hand first i thought it was a river jam because I thought like you that he cbets most aces and flush draws but I'm not sure now. He probably does check back a fair few weak aces on this flop especially against aggro players. If you think he definitely doesnt check back weak aces on the flop then a check raise on the river is fine otherwise fold, definitely cant call here.
                                      "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Yeah I dont see how you can say for certain that its not a value bet.

                                        If you have seen him bet this size as a bluff before or some other piece of information means you think he is never value betting then you prob should have included that in the op AND if you do, it makes discussing the hand pointless. Better to discusss the piece of info that made you think this way.
                                        This may or may not be an original thought of my own.
                                        All efforts were made to make this thought original but with the abundance of thoughts in the world the originality of this thought cannot be guaranteed.
                                        The author is not liable for any issue arising from the platitudinous nature of this post.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Line Us View Post
                                          Just on the bolded bit first, his bet on the river is always for value imo. When i seen the hand first i thought it was a river jam because I thought like you that he cbets most aces and flush draws but I'm not sure now. He probably does check back a fair few weak aces on this flop especially against aggro players. If you think he definitely doesnt check back weak aces on the flop then a check raise on the river is fine otherwise fold, definitely cant call here.
                                          Best analysis on the hand imo. I actually think a check raise on the river is the optimal play here. He def doesnt check back weak aces on the flop and then follow it up with turn and river play.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Hey Rory,

                                            First of all i dont like how you plaed the hand but that is irrelevent. Your asking us what we think the villains range is but surely in this case the more important question is what does the villain tink your range is? IMO (without being there) your turn call seems very weak. If the villain is in any way good he can see your hand for exactly what it is - a medium strength hand and the river is a good spot to try and blow you off the pot.

                                            I sometimes call if I have a good read but dont tell people about it

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                                              Best analysis on the hand imo. I actually think a check raise on the river is the optimal play here. He def doesnt check back weak aces on the flop and then follow it up with turn and river play.
                                              Why not? Why would he bet a weak A here? Does he think you are some value station that is going to call him down with JJ.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                                                Best analysis on the hand imo. I actually think a check raise on the river is the optimal play here. He def doesnt check back weak aces on the flop and then follow it up with turn and river play.
                                                It would be better too if he was deeper, i'm not sure what kind of fold equity we have here if he has only ~160 behind, live players dont like folding. If he had 200 - 300 behind then i'd definitely be jamming, its pretty close here.
                                                "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Is the villain capable of value betting thinly? He might have checked back a weak ace on the flop and he's now betting for value. You almost never have a strong hand here imo unless you have some history of check/raising monsters on the river I don't know about. That said you look pretty face up so anyone that can competently hand read would definitely bluff the river.

                                                  Oh, I would have definitely 3bet pre given the description.
                                                  Last edited by Moneymaker; 01-05-10, 16:47.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by digiman View Post
                                                    Why not? Why would he bet a weak A here? Does he think you are some value station that is going to call him down with JJ.
                                                    Ya thats the problem, the better he thinks the hero is then the less I like the river check raise, he will have an ace and hero call too often. You'd want a pretty solid read on how often he checks back the flop with an ace to work out if the river checkraise is profitable.
                                                    "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      the villains default play should be to check back all weak aces A5 - A9 assuming he doesnt raise with worse Aces pre flop. I wouldnt even consider it thin value betting the turn and river with A5-A9 if I was in villains shoes - it should be automatic

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Line Us View Post
                                                        Ya thats the problem, the better he thinks the hero is then the less I like the river check raise, he will have an ace and hero call too often. You'd want a pretty solid read on how often he checks back the flop with an ace to work out if the river checkraise is profitable.
                                                        Do you not think a river c/r looks like BS the way the hand played out?

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by digiman View Post
                                                          Why not? Why would he bet a weak A here? Does he think you are some value station that is going to call him down with JJ.
                                                          Villain is more likely to raise with connectors and muck rag unsuited aces. I have played some hours with him and his default line here with say A5-AJ would be bet flop, check turn, value river. Bet sizing would be half pot-2/3rds.

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by bubbleking View Post
                                                            Do you not think a river c/r looks like BS the way the hand played out?
                                                            I'd play a flush the same so i think it wouldn't look complete BS. It is fairly polarised alright though because we dont have any aces we play like this. Its definitely a better option than calling anyway and pretty close with folding, just a pity we're not deeper.
                                                            "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Line Us View Post
                                                              It would be better too if he was deeper, i'm not sure what kind of fold equity we have here if he has only ~160 behind, live players dont like folding. If he had 200 - 300 behind then i'd definitely be jamming, its pretty close here.
                                                              I like the check raise only if the guy is capable of folding anything, which as Line Us says most live players aren't. It's been a while since I played live cash so I'm a bit rusty on how these animals perform but the villain's line looks like bluffing with the best hand to me. Either that or two pair plus but if he does fold one pair hands that beat us the c/r on the river is +Ev imo.
                                                              My poker blog - Doking around in cyberspace

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                bet the blockers
                                                                GAA News Website

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                                                                  I decide to only call. I mix it up here between raising to €40 and just flatting. Thoughts on pre flop are not needed really.
                                                                  Fair enough but are you really raising from the straddle enough to need to balance
                                                                  I just can't get my head around not raising here.

                                                                  As played I can't imagine what he bets pot with twice that you beat.
                                                                  I assume there was a hero call the was good because you can't be surprised by anything that he turns up with that you're beating.
                                                                  Turning millions into thousands

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    I'm obv alone here, but i don't think generic live semi-capable villains ever show up with one pair that is better than ours on the river here.
                                                                    Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                                                                      a good thinking player and def the most competent opponent at the table imo. He is the type of player that would enjoy the challenge of getting into pots with me.
                                                                      If he's a good,thinking,competent player there might be another reason he's isolating you - i mean looking for a challenge

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Just give us the result already

                                                                        "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          im expecting an "I was the villain" situation here tbh

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
                                                                            I'm obv alone here, but i don't think generic live semi-capable villains ever show up with one pair that is better than ours on the river here.
                                                                            +1

                                                                            the only option here is to fold or turn it into a bluff and I just cant see him folding to a ship. The only mistake you made was preflop. You said he was dying to play a hand with you, why not make him pay for the pleasure
                                                                            Redbet at the Dublin Poker Invasion FTW

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              No sorry,

                                                                              i intially was going to fold, then starting thinking more about the hand, and came to the conclusion that he was bluffing.

                                                                              i called, he had Q8ss and won the pot.

                                                                              I was angry at how i played the hand pre(reason why i didnt want analysis on that, i already knew) but then starting thinking that I a c/r on the river was optimal in that spot. I came back home and thought bout his possible ranges etc and he is almost always bluffing there. I read a hand analysis by durrr and galfond on a similar spot and galfond said a call was marginally better than a fold but that a shove was the optimal play.

                                                                              Thought it a good hand to stir some thinking.

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by BobSloane View Post
                                                                                If he's a good,thinking,competent player there might be another reason he's isolating you - i mean looking for a challenge
                                                                                I didnt mean it like that, I meant he doesnt mind playing big pots.

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  was the villain value betting or bluffing??

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
                                                                                    I'm obv alone here, but i don't think generic live semi-capable villains ever show up with one pair that is better than ours on the river here.
                                                                                    Originally posted by the aul switcharoo View Post
                                                                                    +1

                                                                                    the only option here is to fold or turn it into a bluff and I just cant see him folding to a ship. The only mistake you made was preflop. You said he was dying to play a hand with you, why not make him pay for the pleasure
                                                                                    Im pretty sure Tommy is saying that he doesnt think he ever has a one pair hand here that beats us.

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by bubbleking View Post
                                                                                      was the villain value betting or bluffing??
                                                                                      Bluffing

                                                                                      he said good call before i turned my hand over.

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        considering his holding its not a great spot to bluff IMO

                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                                                                                          I didnt mean it like that, I meant he doesnt mind playing big pots.

                                                                                          Ya I was just messing
                                                                                          Although you're kicking yourself for not check/shoving here you should still c/f turn. This is not a good spot to crai river imo as you are not deep enough and you are hoping that he has exactly hit the queen and then decided to turn it into a bluff and will then fold it. A bit of a perfect storm and its results based thinking that this is exactly what happened.
                                                                                          Don't forget you are the one who is oop here and you are leaving yourself open to getting owned - which is what happened albeit accidentally by villain

                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Who was the villain?

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              did he really expect you to fold better?

                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                You really are leaving out a massive piece of info for this hand when you leave out who the villain is.
                                                                                                "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Originally posted by tylerdurden94 View Post
                                                                                                  You really are leaving out a massive piece of info for this hand when you leave out who the villain is.
                                                                                                  Hope Rory doesnt mind me saying but afaik the villain was Simon use to post on boards. 5 spin or something maybe?

                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    Originally posted by hatedajacks View Post
                                                                                                    Hope Rory doesnt mind me saying but afaik the villain was Simon use to post on boards. 5 spin or something maybe?
                                                                                                    Yeah LaoLao told me last night who it was, so thats why i think its a vital part of info.
                                                                                                    "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

                                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                                      #51
                                                                                                      When hero calls get to the stage where you loosing to a chunk of there bluffing range you should probably be just folding.

                                                                                                      Also wouldn't be a fan of the check raise on river at all, your giving a live player a lot of respect to leave soldiers behind when they have a good price. I'm sure he would have folded this hand but is there many hands he bets for value and folds to the shove ? So your essentially only turning the bluffs that beat you into winners ? So you have to be correct that he doesn't have it much more % of the time. so I'd prefer call to raise for sure.

                                                                                                      Anyway I'd probably just check call turn or fold it and then fold the river myself.

                                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                                        #52
                                                                                                        The villian in this hand bluffs more than anyone I have ever played with live. Big bluffs small bluffs good bluffs bad bluffs. If he was losing in the game I would probably call after getting to the river in this case,but like Chub says when you cant beat his bluffs then it is pain basically and folding is prob best.

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