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    Hand from Fitz

    Game is 1/2/5 NL, game has been playing pretty aggressive with more good players than usual in the game. There was a shortstack in the game who wouldn't straddle so this hand is 1/2. Villain 1 (Will) regular in the game, pretty tight but picks spots to use his image well when people start 3betting him too much pre. Villain 2 (Nick H) Been playing a bit of live cash lately but very good aggro online mtt player, fond of the raise button. Will playing 750, Nick 1200. I have both covered.

    Will UTG+1 opens for 10
    Next guy calls
    I call in the CO with QQ
    Nick makes it 70 from SB as planned
    Will then insta makes it 200
    Action back on me?

    #2
    I fold quietly.

    Comment


      #3
      have to raise here imo

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by jackthree View Post
        have to raise here imo
        What is he raising to as Will only has 750 in his stack and 200 of that now invested in the pot?

        Comment


          #5
          Yuck, tough spot. How come you didn't 3bet pre? If you were trying to induce a squeeze(and UTG+1 knows the SB is capable of squeezing light), then i'd make it 475-550 and call a shove from either player.

          Your hand is so underepped I probably just get it in, but I think there's an argument for folding fwiw. I doubt the SB gets 220BBs over the line with TT/JJ/AQ type hands(could be wrong, you'd be better equipped to know this of course) but UTG+1 might given the SBs image and his own.

          Comment


            #6
            you have too much equity to fold and raising here would be terrible because it leaves you open to getting pwned so hard.

            call and re-evaluate

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by bubbleking View Post
              you have too much equity to fold and raising here would be terrible because it leaves you open to getting pwned so hard.
              I think calling leaves us open too. SB can jam on us here. And if he flats there's 600 in the middle with 500 and 1k back. What's your plan for any flop that doesn't contain a Q?

              Comment


                #8
                i dono will as i never play in the fitz but from the notes i read on the opening post i dono is he the kinda person to repot with kk or AA from his position?

                Comment


                  #9
                  If your description of Will is acurate i'm happy to get it in here against him and call it a cooler if i'm wrong.

                  I'm presume your initial plan is to repop Nick if Will folds?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Moneymaker View Post
                    I think calling leaves us open too. SB can jam on us here. And if he flats there's 600 in the middle with 500 and 1k back. What's your plan for any flop that doesn't contain a Q?
                    if the flop came down rags i think there is value to be got from 99-JJ and AK(its the fitz ) i think me may have to c/f a lot though

                    Comment


                      #11
                      For the player Will, how wide would his initial opening range from early position be? The broad dynamics and tendencies you have described certainly make pumping it up here more than justifiable. But when your description of Will is "pretty tight", then that might mean that he is so tight that the rest of your description is rendered irrelevant - i.e. this action from this position is just the goods the vast majority of the time.
                      "Worldly wisdom teaches that it is better for reputation to fail conventionally than to succeed unconventionally." - John Maynard Keynes

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by danutpeddler View Post
                        If your description of Will is acurate i'm happy to get it in here against him and call it a cooler if i'm wrong.

                        I'm presume your initial plan is to repop Nick if Will folds?
                        Yeh the plan was going along nicely until Will 4bets. Nick has 600BB's and will has nearly 400. I dont wanna raise call off nick's stack as he just isnt putting it in without AA/KK imo. Therefore i don't really like raising but so hard to just peel a flop. Any merit in peeling and calling down on most boards vs Will. Prob wouldnt on an Ahigh board tbh as his range is prob something like AA, KK , QQ, JJ 1010, AK, AQ, maybe 99, 88 and AJ.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I'd just fold, calling sucks with the sb still to act and you cant be in good shape raising here, cant see either putting in 375bbs or 600bbs pre with worse. This deep without the live straddle I think its a mistake not to 3bet pre. I know why you did it and if your shallower then inducing a squeez is fine and probably a good play but this deep you should have taken the inititive. Lets say you make it 60 pre from the CO, now if you get 4bet by sb/utg +1 you can comfortably flat and play pretty perfectly in position with a preceived wide range.
                          "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Meh just call. Grim enough but the best option. Id prefer folding to raising by a million miles but I would NEVER fold. Raising here is the misery. Another crappy thing about just calling is that you now have to go three handed to the flop as Nick cant fold that many hands that he has raised from the sb with unless he has the kind of hand that plays horrifically v you guys. That or you find out he has the nuts. Regardless your hands to strong to fold imo.
                            Stacking off on the 8 high flop or whatever is a win aswell as it provides another brief window of wondering why poker hates and you can enjoy those brief few monents when you genuinly plan to never play again.
                            Yeah great point about 3 betting this deep aswell. I think flatting here only makes the hand harder to play.
                            Last edited by Closed_Account; 25-03-10, 11:36.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Haven't play with you in a long time Marc, but are you still capable of raising to 500/shipping pre in this situation with a bag of spanners?

                              Comment


                                #16
                                This seems like a pretty easy fold to me.

                                Even if I hadn't played against Will myself previously, just on descriptions I still fold pretty fast, but I've found him to be unreasonably nitty.
                                Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  disgusting spot

                                  folding seems best given descriptions, calling is reducing your hand to set-mining (and hoping the SB doesn't ship) and raising is suicidal

                                  I fold and go outside to bang my head off the wall
                                  "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Easy fold and fistpump that it only cost you a tenner.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Make it 25-30 when it comes to you first.
                                      "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by AndyFB View Post
                                        Make it 25-30 when it comes to you first.
                                        that's not what was asked

                                        also you'd want to make it 40\50 with the limper
                                        "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                                          Easy fold and fistpump that it only cost you a tenner.
                                          Thinking about it, this is probably the best of 3 bad options.

                                          I'd have just 3bet myself pre though. Surely you're doing a lot of 3betting so why you wouldn't 3bet QQ kind of mystifies me. I know your looking for a light squeeze but you can be put in tons of really shit spots, like you were.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
                                            that's not what was asked

                                            also you'd want to make it 40\50 with the limper
                                            Oh sorry, I didn't notice the limper. And yeah, I know what he asked. I think he made a questionable play beforehand and that an alternative would be a better way to proceed. When you flat a big hand expecting a squeeze, you've got to be prepared to deal with a re-raise from the OR. Since this has happened it's best to duck out, but you will often see two worse hands shown down and cringe that you folded QQ.
                                            "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              The only hand ive seen nick 3bet so far is his Q70 wen he 3bet my open for 20 and 1 caller to 90, and got priced in to shorties shove. Safe to say his range is wide here but he's not putting a penny more in with out me beat imo once will makes it 200. So more afraid of will's hand for sure

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by bubbleking View Post
                                                you have too much equity to fold and raising here would be terrible because it leaves you open to getting pwned so hard.

                                                call and re-evaluate


                                                are you Sean Fitzpatrick???

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Do you really consider it 375bbs and 600bbs in a game where the straddle is off for one hand an orbit?

                                                  Just wondering.
                                                  I think that I'd be in 2 - 5 mode.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    I called flop came Kc6c4x check, check. Turn Jc will leads for 110 leaving 450ish behind

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by danutpeddler View Post
                                                      Do you really consider it 375bbs and 600bbs in a game where the straddle is off for one hand an orbit?

                                                      Just wondering.
                                                      I think that I'd be in 2 - 5 mode.
                                                      This makes no sense. The betting structure for the particular hand dictates the initial pot size and every action pertinent to playing the pot with the highest EV from then on.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by danutpeddler View Post
                                                        Do you really consider it 375bbs and 600bbs in a game where the straddle is off for one hand an orbit?

                                                        Just wondering.
                                                        I think that I'd be in 2 - 5 mode.
                                                        Like zuutroy said, this is wrong. Of course its 375bb and 600bb.

                                                        Similarly, people still think they're 100bb deep with 200 in a 1/2 game when a straddle to 5 goes on for a hand.


                                                        And I'm presuming Nick folded?
                                                        Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          And do you have the Qc?
                                                          Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Yeah nick folded and i dont have Qc

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Easy fold pre. But im a nit.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Snap fold pre. I haven't a clue what to do on the turn or what he would really play like this bar JJ. However, I think i've played with the guy before and correct me if im wrong but, unless people started to play a bit better or at least more aggressively lately in live cash then his range for insta making it 200 pre is not gonna include JJ, 1010 or 99 but rather AA,AK,KK maybe QQ and then some rando bluffs. What i'm saying is that i dont think he snap makes it 200 with medium strength hands and his range is prob more polarised than that.

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Surprised at all the folding going on, good few lies imo. I prob reraise get it in pre. your hand is so under repped and if i saw you reraise here Id ship on you lightish. unless you've changed your game alot.

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    He doesn't have JJ. That would be insano stuff and atrocious.

                                                                    He can have KK+, AK, a fair few flushes, maybe KJ that he 4b bluffed, and very very rarely the bare Ac. He might have AcJx, but I think his turn line would be pretty awful with that as well. He can have some random stuff as well, but they always have like 20%-30% equity against your hand, and we very often have <5%.

                                                                    On the other hand, his insta4b makes it look more bluffy.

                                                                    I'd just fold again.
                                                                    Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by AKQJ10 View Post
                                                                      I called flop came Kc6c4x check, check. Turn Jc will leads for 110 leaving 450ish behind
                                                                      the hands which i outrule from his preflop range after the flop are AA KK AK - surely he would bet a FD so i dont give him credit for that now - i call the turn and hope he checks the river

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
                                                                        He doesn't have JJ. That would be insano stuff and atrocious.

                                                                        He can have KK+, AK, a fair few flushes, maybe KJ that he 4b bluffed, and very very rarely the bare Ac. He might have AcJx, but I think his turn line would be pretty awful with that as well. He can have some random stuff as well, but they always have like 20%-30% equity against your hand, and we very often have <5%.

                                                                        On the other hand, his insta4b makes it look more bluffy.

                                                                        I'd just fold again.
                                                                        surely KK+ and AK would be betting that flop for value?

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by smoothcall View Post
                                                                          Surprised at all the folding going on, good few lies imo.


                                                                          good call
                                                                          "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            I can't help but think that getting QQ in here 375bb deep pre vs a tightish guy with what is very very likely a very very polarised range is pretty bad. There is probably enough dead money in the pot to 5b shove though, depending on how often you think he 4b bluffs here.

                                                                            Regardless of Marc's image, its gonna be very tough for Will to call with worse here, cos what does he 4b here 375bb deep that can call thats worse than QQ? If he has JJ, lollivedonks. If we shove its only because everyone will fold so often, and we'll just have to be happy with our ~27% equity if called. Maybe a little more if Nick wants to call off all AK, but AK in his shoes would be an extremely difficult call to make, and a very easy fold. It would be much better to get it in if Will hadn't 4b, cos he does have a pretty tight image, and that just means Nick can't felt really light cos of him being behind with KK+ a fair amount.
                                                                            Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by bubbleking View Post
                                                                              surely KK+ and AK would be betting that flop for value?
                                                                              Maybe so, but people check with those hands here quite a lot. Sure they've a lower weight though. He doesn't bluff here too often either though, cos everyone knows Marc

                                                                              Originally posted by Gimmeabreak
                                                                              I think folding pre is almost certainly a mistake here btw. People are too quick to go omg he raise, i fold and are not giving ample thought to the dynamic of the hand.

                                                                              We are never worried about Nick as OP said he 3bet as expected. If op is aware that Nick is 3b as expected then obviously Will is also very aware of this. This increases Wills range significantly - when will makes it 200 he knows Nick cant continue with a bag of shit, but at the point that Will makes it 200 he must expect that op calls the 200 less than 10% of the time - how often does somebody go call 10, call 200 in this game? certainly less than 10% imo.

                                                                              If Will has any stones, and I know he has, then he must be making it 200 with 88+ and retardo spas bags of spanners or else its time to hand in his man badge.
                                                                              Making it 200 with bags of spanners is fine, making it 200 with 88+ is atrocious. We're gonna be priced into calling a shove 375bb deep. Thats not fun with 88. If he's doing that sorta shiit then he's just some retarded spewmonkey rather than the solid decent pokerplayer people give him credit for. If he has anything other than [airy type good 4b hands, QQ+, AK] (where he mightn't even have QQ or AK that often), then he's a monkey.

                                                                              Also, I'm sure Nick doesn't 3b 100% of his range here. 20% would be gargantuanly high, but a little more realistic than 100%. We should give him some credit for being decent at the pokers and not just a complete monkey.
                                                                              Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by Gimmeabreak

                                                                                If Will has any stones, and I know he has, then he must be making it 200 with 88+ and retardo spas bags of spanners or else its time to hand in his man badge.
                                                                                Yeah, agreeing with TG and thinking like this is pretty silly imo. Ego at the door and all that.

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  I want to know where to get one of these man badges
                                                                                  "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
                                                                                    I want to know where to get one of these man badges
                                                                                    Egozarus

                                                                                    They also sell large balls (in pairs only) and newspapers (which you can use as blankets when you are sleeping in Stephens Green).
                                                                                    Last edited by gorrrr72; 25-03-10, 16:08.

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      As regards the 375 BB deep argument, it's not really playing like a normal 1-2 game. Like he opens for 5 bigs and the three bet is bigger too. So the blinds being 1-2 isn't really reflective of how big the games playing probably.

                                                                                      As played I'd jsut fold the turn.

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        So I guess Im the only one shipping pf...
                                                                                        Played with Will a bit and he is def on he nitty side but often spazzs and he for sure gets aggro against sqzers/3bettors...
                                                                                        There def has to be something about how he instantly made it €200-(I have seen him instant checkraise bluff on the river and show but havent played with him nearly enough), obv reads here are huge but Id be willing to accept that Wil has had enough of Nicks aggression and is making a stand-never worrying that any of the callers limped big, I ship and think its profitable long term in this situation.

                                                                                        Also isnt this usually a 2/5 game, so Id def not be looking at it as Will having 350bbs-which he has, Id look at it as one and a half buyin, obviously shipping 350bb with QQ in an online game would be terrible.
                                                                                        Last edited by ShipIt; 25-03-10, 18:23.

                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          You lunatics. What hands do you think you get it in here against if you raise pre? The only reason I think there is a little merit to pondering what to do is that we still have Nick to get through when we call. Like I cant imagine he is squeezing that much from the blinds in that game unless he been overexposed to the live cash already.

                                                                                          Also WTF when Marc flat calls 200 brick he has a pretty narrow range aswell.He defo doesnt have the j10heartskis or any nonsense and Id imagine the lads both know this so its going to slow the action down loads on the flop when they dont have the absolutes.

                                                                                          Re the turn he bet what 110 into a 500 pot. Id drool the chips in in reality but I think it looks as obvious as humanly possible youve been outdrawn or were dead from the off.

                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Hmm, interesting spot.

                                                                                            I would never re-raise pre, marc's hand looks exactly like it is QQ,KK or AA. Only KK and AA will get it in here against Marc. Marc has under-repped his hand alot so there is a good chance he still has the best hand. Folding is a little weak imo. This deep I think a call is the best option.

                                                                                            Will's check on the flop is a little strange, Id guess he bets 80%- 90% of flops with the hands he raises pre with. I think Marc could bet this flop. A bet of 250ish would make it very hard for Will to shove without the goods here. Check behind isnt a bad option though.

                                                                                            The bet on the turn looks like he hit his set of Jacks really. Its a horrible spot but I think id fold here. Its an awful spot though. I guess because the pot is so small, you could call and re-asses the river, but it really looks as if you are dead.

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              Originally posted by atufone View Post


                                                                                              are you Sean Fitzpatrick???
                                                                                              no why??

                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                                                                                                Hmm, interesting spot.

                                                                                                I would never re-raise pre, marc's hand looks exactly like it is QQ,KK or AA. Only KK and AA will get it in here against Marc. Marc has under-repped his hand alot so there is a good chance he still has the best hand. Folding is a little weak imo. This deep I think a call is the best option.

                                                                                                Will's check on the flop is a little strange, Id guess he bets 80%- 90% of flops with the hands he raises pre with. I think Marc could bet this flop. A bet of 250ish would make it very hard for Will to shove without the goods here. Check behind isnt a bad option though.

                                                                                                The bet on the turn looks like he hit his set of Jacks really. Its a horrible spot but I think id fold here. Its an awful spot though. I guess because the pot is so small, you could call and re-asses the river, but it really looks as if you are dead.

                                                                                                I dont think betting the flop is good - the only hands that will call are hands that have us beat and the nut flush draw IMO

                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Question for all in the calling pf group, are u stacking off on a 226rainbow flop???

                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    Originally posted by ShipIt View Post
                                                                                                    Question for all in the calling pf group, are u stacking off on a 226rainbow flop???
                                                                                                    Wills range would be super polarised on that kind of flop - its a completely different situation.

                                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                                      #51
                                                                                                      Originally posted by bubbleking View Post
                                                                                                      Wills range would be super polarised on that kind of flop - its a completely different situation.
                                                                                                      Why does Wills range become polarised on this flop???

                                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                                        #52
                                                                                                        Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                                                                                                        This makes no sense. The betting structure for the particular hand dictates the initial pot size and every action pertinent to playing the pot with the highest EV from then on.
                                                                                                        As smoothcall says, i've noticed that when a straddle is left off that the other players try and bump up the action by over opening or over 3betting to get it back on track to suit their game.

                                                                                                        Live NL: chose your stakes post flop makes a little sense

                                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                                          #53
                                                                                                          Originally posted by ShipIt View Post
                                                                                                          Question for all in the calling pf group, are u stacking off on a 226rainbow flop???
                                                                                                          Some of the time yeah-ie bulk of the time! Some of the time action will stall. Some of the time we will flop the nuts. And so on and so forth....I dont think you can have a cast iron plan for what to do in a weird spot like this...and lol live pokes as it sounds some of the time your going to be told he has AA or KK here only from the way the action goes post flop.

                                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                                            #54
                                                                                                            Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
                                                                                                            Like zuutroy said, this is wrong. Of course its 375bb and 600bb.

                                                                                                            Similarly, people still think they're 100bb deep with 200 in a 1/2 game when a straddle to 5 goes on for a hand.
                                                                                                            No Zuutroy and yourself are wrong, In NL the game people think they are playing is more important than the actual technical structure.

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