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    Correct play??

    Full Tilt, $3 + $0.30 NL Hold'em Tournament, 15/30 Blinds, 9 Players
    LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

    SB: 3,000
    BB: 3,000
    UTG: 3,000
    UTG+1: 3,000
    UTG+2: 3,000
    MP1: 3,000
    Hero (MP2): 3,000
    CO: 3,000
    BTN: 3,000

    Pre-Flop: (45) Q K dealt to Hero (MP2)
    4 folds, Hero raises to 90, 2 folds, SB calls 75, BB calls 60

    Flop: (270) 5 Q 9 (3 Players)
    SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets 180, SB calls 180, BB folds

    Turn: (630) 8 (2 Players)
    SB checks, Hero bets 480, SB calls 480

    River: (1,590) A (2 Players)
    SB bets 1,590, Hero folds

    Results: 1,590 Pot
    SB showed and WON 1,590 (+855 NET)

    #2
    I just muck this pre tbh
    Trying to not cause trouble since 1983

    Comment


      #3
      Yup, I like it.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by CHD View Post
        Yup, I like it.
        Which one lol, I worry I'm becoming too nitty after posting prev HH's
        Trying to not cause trouble since 1983

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Ramiriquez View Post
          I just muck this pre tbh
          it was the 1st hand, no reads onthe player!

          are you seriously mucking this pre-flop??

          Does anyone else agree mucking pre?

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by CHD View Post
            Yup, I like it.
            hi CHD, do you like the way the hand played out or rams quote to muck

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Ramiriquez View Post
              I just muck this pre tbh
              Dont do this

              Everything else is fine, maybe bet bit less on turn like 400
              ''Oh my god, I'm dropping shit like a pigeon
              I hope you're listening, smacking babies at their christening''

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by luckylawz View Post
                hi CHD, do you like the way the hand played out or rams quote to muck
                I think you played it fine all the way

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by luckylawz View Post
                  it was the 1st hand, no reads onthe player!

                  are you seriously mucking this pre-flop??

                  Does anyone else agree mucking pre?
                  Yup, I still am, tis a hand I rarely play this early in a tourney as I've found it gets me into more trouble than win. Of course, that could all be down to my abismal post flop play!
                  Trying to not cause trouble since 1983

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Hand is fine. Mucking pre is lol.
                    Looking for full or part time poker and betting writers. PM if interested.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Hand was played fine. The idea that CHD is endorsing the mucking post is funny.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Is good.
                        "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Wp.

                          Lol @ folding pre.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Check behind on the turn and call his river lead for 450ish.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                              Check behind on the turn and call his river lead for 450ish.
                              This is something i often did for pot control but do it less and less now. In this situation I would bet the turn, we are ahead a huge percentage of the time and dont want to allow him draw to a better hand. Want to get max value off worse queens. If we check then we lose alot of value from QJ Q10 type hands that bad players will pay off a turn and river(non ace) bet.

                              As for folding pre...its pretty abysmal to even think of it. Open up and play from there, you dont have to stack off with it.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                                Check behind on the turn and call his river lead for 450ish.
                                I like this line best aswel for pot control, you could already be behind or you may be setting yourself up to fold the best hand on the river. The only draw on the flop got there or he may have picked up a draw on the turn and you easily call 400-550ish on the river and have put the same amount in the pot for less stress and a possible scoop of the pot (ie hes bluffing a missed flushdraw on river).


                                Id like to hear thoughts on why everyone is saying to bet the turn because there could be a flaw in my thought process if everyone's betting that turn.

                                Are you betting to get him to fold or call?
                                Whats a safe card on the river?
                                Last edited by Laois Hammer; 26-01-11, 14:13.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Checking the turn is ok, i'd bet though. Checking something like QT would be fairly standard.

                                  I'd never fold pre, i'd love to hear an argument for it though!

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Laois Hammer View Post
                                    Are you getting to bet him to fold or call?
                                    Whats a safe card on the river?
                                    You want him to call with a worse hand obviously

                                    A lot of pairs have now become gutshots and may call another bet, as will worse Queens

                                    The only reason a check looks so good now is that the villain donked the river for pot, which is very unusual. If we knew he was going to do that then a turn check becomes much more reasonable.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                                      This is something i often did for pot control but do it less and less now. In this situation I would bet the turn, we are ahead a huge percentage of the time and dont want to allow him draw to a better hand. Want to get max value off worse queens. If we check then we lose alot of value from QJ Q10 type hands that bad players will pay off a turn and river(non ace) bet.

                                      As for folding pre...its pretty abysmal to even think of it. Open up and play from there, you dont have to stack off with it.
                                      Was writing my post when you posted.
                                      Makes a bit more sense with the explanation alright, is there any rivers are you calling a pot bet on? I mean is the ace really a scare card or are we folding because we thought he was ahead all along?

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                                        Check behind on the turn and call his river lead for 450ish.
                                        +1 might fold river though

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Ya suprised to see everyone saying to fold river,I think its a bit closer than that. The ace is pretty much a blank to the range that we are getting value from on the turn, but i suppose this early in a tournie best to take the safer route and fold.
                                          "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                                            Check behind on the turn and call his river lead for 450ish.
                                            +1.

                                            Originally posted by JamieCarra View Post
                                            +1 might fold river though
                                            I would only take this line to call the river though. Why fold?

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                                              This is something i often did for pot control but do it less and less now. In this situation I would bet the turn, we are ahead a huge percentage of the time and dont want to allow him draw to a better hand. Want to get max value off worse queens. If we check then we lose alot of value from QJ Q10 type hands that bad players will pay off a turn and river(non ace) bet.

                                              As for folding pre...its pretty abysmal to even think of it. Open up and play from there, you dont have to stack off with it.

                                              We are losing some value but I would feel the positives outweigh the negatives in these situations for my particular game anyway.

                                              You're inflating a pot where you are being value owned a lot and getting small pair hands to fold that might check call a river bet. (Ace being a bad card in this scenario obviously)

                                              On the other hand I could play the hand differently with reads and history. I could happily fire 3 bullets if I thought he was terrible.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Laois Hammer View Post
                                                I like this line best aswel for pot control, you could already be behind or you may be setting yourself up to fold the best hand on the river. The only draw on the flop got there or he may have picked up a draw on the turn and you easily call 400-550ish on the river and have put the same amount in the pot for less stress and a possible scoop of the pot (ie hes bluffing a missed flushdraw on river).


                                                Id like to hear thoughts on why everyone is saying to bet the turn because there could be a flaw in my thought process if everyone's betting that turn.

                                                Are you betting to get him to fold or call?
                                                Whats a safe card on the river?
                                                Im in this camp...

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Played right pre and on the flop, I check the turn, not because I think i'm behind but to control the pot and it stops us from having to calling off over half of our stack on the river when were most likey ahead, to be honest I don't think there's any cards in the deck that can hit the river that i'm folding to, your ahead here alot of the time, but first hand of the tournie i'd try to keep the pot smaller on the turn and call his bet of 500-750 on the river.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Checking the turn for pot control is the line I would take with no reads. These micro-stakes buy in tournaments can be extremely volatile especially in the early levels. I'm not bloating pots without a really big hand. I'd be calling up to 500 if he bets the river. Stack protection is vital...
                                                    http://carlmorrissey.blogspot.com/
                                                    http://twitter.com/#!/Moro88

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      i'm betting flop and turn for value here as complete standard vs unknown and i'd be very surprised if its not optimal (when we have no history or reads-iav).

                                                      riverdonk is really annoying coz its proves to be a retarded bluff from time to time in my experience but i still edge towards the fold (only just tho)

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        i'm betting flop and turn for value,riverdonk is really annoying
                                                        Buy bloting up the pot with KQ and putting in 480 on the turn allows this guy to pot bet the river which puts us in a bad spot when really the river A wont hit his range most times and were folding the best hand, rather than checking the turn we then would be faceing a 500-750 or something bet which we can call, instead we have to fold to his pot bet on the river and have 1/3 of our stack gone in the first hand, but if we keep the 480 on the turn we can use that to call his river lead and if we lose, which I dont think we would here most of the time it's only that 1/3 and not over 1/3 and having to fold.

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Turn is a very easy bet
                                                          Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Carl_Morrissey View Post
                                                            Checking the turn for pot control is the line I would take with no reads. These micro-stakes buy in tournaments can be extremely volatile especially in the early levels. I'm not bloating pots without a really big hand. I'd be calling up to 500 if he bets the river. Stack protection is vital...
                                                            You have a really big hand here on the turn.
                                                            Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              I would nearly always bet the turn there. and fold the river.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by shano_88 View Post
                                                                I would nearly always bet the turn there. and fold the river.
                                                                If you bet the turn because you think your ahead why would you fold on the river, that A aint going to hit his range I mean really what are you putting him on to fold there if your betting the turn.

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by theshortstack View Post
                                                                  If you bet the turn because you think your ahead why would you fold on the river, that A aint going to hit his range I mean really what are you putting him on to fold there if your betting the turn.
                                                                  The A hits our range more than his. When he donks full pot, it almost always means he's got a very big hand and is hoping the A has improved our hand so that we can pay him off. It also adds various two-pair combos to his range that we have to worry about.
                                                                  "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by theshortstack View Post
                                                                    If you bet the turn because you think your ahead why would you fold on the river, that A aint going to hit his range I mean really what are you putting him on to fold there if your betting the turn.
                                                                    all that is true, Id still probably fold though as its very early and its a huge bet.

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
                                                                      You have a really big hand here on the turn.
                                                                      So after betting the turn do you call this river? Even though the A is pretty much a blank, a9 is the only hand in his range the A hits. Betting the turn sets up a multitude of horrible river spots for the villain to put us in imo.
                                                                      http://carlmorrissey.blogspot.com/
                                                                      http://twitter.com/#!/Moro88

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by Carl_Morrissey View Post
                                                                        So after betting the turn do you call this river? Even though the A is pretty much a blank, a9 is the only hand in his range the A hits. Betting the turn sets up a multitude of horrible river spots for the villain to put us in imo.
                                                                        'multitude' seems inappropriate to me. how often do u face a river donk like this? in my experience it's not that often. how many scare cards do u think your typical villain is likely to bluff at out of position?

                                                                        if we were betting the turn OOP and on a more draw heavy board then i could see some merit in what u say but this if anything is quite a benign spot imo

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                                                          'multitude' seems inappropriate to me. how often do u face a river donk like this? in my experience it's not that often. how many scare cards do u think your typical villain is likely to bluff at out of position?

                                                                          if we were betting the turn OOP and on a more draw heavy board then i could see some merit in what u say but this if anything is quite a benign spot imo
                                                                          Dont get me wrong I think its close, checking is just the line I'd take without a read. I played a lot of these and even though it was a couple years ago the first few levels are just madness with all the spewy fish about. There is (was??) a fine line between a value bet and bloating a pot so I'd just take the careful line.
                                                                          http://carlmorrissey.blogspot.com/
                                                                          http://twitter.com/#!/Moro88

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by Carl_Morrissey View Post
                                                                            Dont get me wrong I think its close, checking is just the line I'd take without a read. I played a lot of these and even though it was a couple years ago the first few levels are just madness with all the spewy fish about. There is (was??) a fine line between a value bet and bloating a pot so I'd just take the careful line.
                                                                            this is wrong.

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                                                                              this is wrong.
                                                                              gpwm

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                hand looks fine, nver mucking from the HJ

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Carl: The A is NOT a blank.
                                                                                  "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    The A is a blank to his range, what 2pairs does it hit? He has called from the sb pre so I'd say none bar AQ (occasionally ac5c or ac9c) unless he has somehow floated us out of position with a high and hit on the river.
                                                                                    "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by Line Us View Post
                                                                                      The A is a blank to his range, what 2pairs does it hit? He has called from the sb pre so I'd say none bar AQ (occasionally ac5c or ac9c) unless he has somehow floated us out of position with a high and hit on the river.
                                                                                      i don't think you can put a 3 dollar tourny player on a range without seeing them play a few hands.
                                                                                      it's a shitty spot with no reads but i think considerably more often than not at low stakes people are loose passive so i'd fold.

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        He has J10

                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Originally posted by BuChan View Post
                                                                                          i don't think you can put a 3 dollar tourny player on a range without seeing them play a few hands.
                                                                                          it's a shitty spot with no reads but i think considerably more often than not at low stakes people are loose passive so i'd fold.
                                                                                          I agree that its probably a fold vs a typical loose passive player but my point is that the ace is a blank, he simply doesnt have an ace that often no matter what type of player he is. Lets say we have AcKc and we get to the river and he donks for the pot do you fold?
                                                                                          "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Originally posted by Line Us View Post
                                                                                            The A is a blank to his range, what 2pairs does it hit? He has called from the sb pre so I'd say none bar AQ (occasionally ac5c or ac9c) unless he has somehow floated us out of position with a high and hit on the river.
                                                                                            Yes, it doesn't hit much of his range. My point is that it's definitely not a blank to our range. Which means when he donks he's doing it for value from hands like AK a lot more than as a bluff, and he's certainly not overvaluing a worse Q. That's why it's effectively not a blank card.
                                                                                            "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              I have busted rolls loads so have played these loads with the few dollars left. Feck the A he has J10. Good fold.

                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                Originally posted by AndyFB View Post
                                                                                                Yes, it doesn't hit much of his range. My point is that it's definitely not a blank to our range. Which means when he donks he's doing it for value from hands like AK a lot more than as a bluff, and he's certainly not overvaluing a worse Q. That's why it's effectively not a blank card.
                                                                                                I think we are arguing the same point tbh, its hits our range a bit alright, acxc, aq and ak we may have barrelled. I agree that when he donks the river he is completely polarised to monsters or bluffs. My point is that if we fold KQ to a donk then we should fold as strong as AK too and possible some 2 pair combos, there is not much difference in the relative hand strength of these when we get to the river and he donks. I think some people will look at KQ as 2nd pair top kicker facing a donk bet on the river when its actually as strong a bluff catcher as AcKc/Ac8c/Ac5c when he donks. I'd doubt we would get so many people saying snap fold if we had AK/Ac9c/Ac5c. Although all that said, (I know it sounds like I'm making an argument to call) and you should fold all of those combos here, he will have a monster too often.
                                                                                                "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

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