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Really tough hand on every street

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    Really tough hand on every street

    Tournament is a $100 buyin, $35k on ipoker, Its and hour in and blinds are 60/120 with 5k affective stacks. EP raised to 320, folded to the button who makes it 520 (minraise) I'm in the SB with 2 red Kings. Button has been very tight (14/12) and I have been just as tight. EP is loose enough.

    So I flat here with the plan of being cautious from here on, thoughts on preflop?

    Flop comes 567ss (1680)

    I check, EP checks and BB bets 1260, I call and EP folds

    Turn is As, I check and Btn shoves, I fold.

    Would like to hear peoples opinions on each street, also last question is do people check/call on a shove if a Th falls?

    #2
    Originally posted by digiman View Post
    Tournament is a $100 buyin, $35k on ipoker, Its and hour in and blinds are 60/120 with 5k affective stacks. EP raised to 320, folded to the button who makes it 520 (minraise) I'm in the SB with 2 red Kings. Button has been very tight (14/12) and I have been just as tight. EP is loose enough.

    So I flat here with the plan of being cautious from here on, thoughts on preflop?

    Flop comes 567ss (1680)

    I check, EP checks and BB bets 1260, I call and EP folds

    Turn is As, I check and Btn shoves, I fold.

    Would like to hear peoples opinions on each street, also last question is do people check/call on a shove if a Th falls?
    Interesting.

    Who are the effective stacks? Are ye all around the same?

    Pre: You say he's been playing tight and fair enough but imo we should never, nay can never ever put someone on an exact hand pre flop. You also say EP has been relatively active so I can see a good tight player on the button doing this same thing with 99+ and AQo+. If he happens to have Aces then gg gl and sleep tight. The only reason I ever flat here is to induce a shove from EP.

    Flop: When I saw the flop I thought: rank. Mainly because of EPs range but w/e. I don't like the action on the flop mainly because I think if we're ahead we've allowed our minds made up on the turn. I think we have to make our mind up on the flop either to get it in or fold and in this situation I just think there's too many 88-QQ hands in his range that we're losing value from by not getting it in with a c/r combined with a shedload of Ax Cbet hands we get him to put more chips in the middle with (c/r again obv.)

    Turn: Ugh. worst card in the deck and c/f is your only option at this stage. I still, however, thinks a good player realises this and can easily just be repping it but it's not a nice spot and we have to muck.
    Pining for Wa'erford

    Comment


      #3
      firstly i think i 3bet here to 1200 to isolate against the bttn raiser and deffo calling a push by him.

      flop i lead out here but the pot would be about 2800 if you had 3bet with about 3800 behind, just wondering do i push or bet 1800 as this is effectively the same thing.

      i think i push as he will call if he has got any fair diamond AKQ



      "Remember the time he ate my goldfish? And you lied and said I never had goldfish. Then why did I have the bowl, Bart? Why did I have the bowl?"

      Comment


        #4
        raise pre, lead at or check raise flop, fold turn

        Originally posted by digiman View Post
        also last question is do people check/call on a shove if a Th falls?
        wtf?

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by 8611 View Post
          wtf?
          He means if the 10h falls on the turn rather than the As do you still call a shove?
          Pining for Wa'erford

          Comment


            #6
            like others have said Pauric I 3bet pre and get it in - I hate flatting oop

            I think the fop flat is ok (part of me wants to check / overbet jam this though but thats the part of me that isnt alowed out when Im playing poker any more)

            Turn fold is standard.

            FWIW i c/c a shove on a Th turn and on any off suit 2/3/4 but original problem was caused pre imo

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
              like others have said Pauric I 3bet pre and get it in - I hate flatting oop

              I think the fop flat is ok (part of me wants to check / overbet jam this though but thats the part of me that isnt alowed out when Im playing poker any more)

              Turn fold is standard.

              FWIW i c/c a shove on a Th turn and on any off suit 2/3/4 but original problem was caused pre imo
              Ok, if we 4b pre, what does my hand look like? I have played about 5-6 hands so far in about 50 hands. I've mainly being card dead but as far as anyone with a HUD is concerened or paying attention I am a total NIT so my cold 4b range against a nit 3b is going to be AA and KK. I personally wouldn't cold 4b QQ and AK here as if he shoves I think its a fold and I ain't 4b folding those hands.

              To be honest I have no idea if this guy is any good or not, the only thing I have to go on is hes really tight and hes min 3b which makes me thing hes not great which makes it even less likely hes 3b light here.

              Basically 4b pre makes the hand pretty easy to play for sure, but is it the most +EV play which is what I am most concerned about tbh.

              Comment


                #8
                4bet pre, I prob just jam I think people perceive it as weaker than 4bet small when you are 50bb deep. Calling is going to put you in a lot of tricky spots 3way oop, and I think btn will rarely fold

                I think if you call to keep his range wider this is definitely a crai on the flop, you are well ahead of btns range and he can call with worse overpairs and big draws. I would be more worried about loose EP guy on this board.

                As played thats a horrible turn, you have to fold I think, but Im calling a shove on lots of turns

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by digiman View Post
                  Ok, if we 4b pre, what does my hand look like? I have played about 5-6 hands so far in about 50 hands. I've mainly being card dead but as far as anyone with a HUD is concerened or paying attention I am a total NIT so my cold 4b range against a nit 3b is going to be AA and KK. I personally wouldn't cold 4b QQ and AK here as if he shoves I think its a fold and I ain't 4b folding those hands.

                  To be honest I have no idea if this guy is any good or not, the only thing I have to go on is hes really tight and hes min 3b which makes me thing hes not great which makes it even less likely hes 3b light here.

                  Basically 4b pre makes the hand pretty easy to play for sure, but is it the most +EV play which is what I am most concerned about tbh.
                  I still think 4betting pre is the most +EV route in this hand as we are going to be playing the rest of the hand oop. We are leaving us open to being outplayed esp considering your original comment about flatting pre and carrying on cautiously..you're already preparing yourself to lay it down before SD.
                  Pining for Wa'erford

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by sligboi View Post
                    He means if the 10h falls on the turn rather than the As do you still call a shove?
                    I still don't understand! 10 changes nothing so why wouldn't we call?

                    Originally posted by digiman View Post
                    Ok, if we 4b pre, what does my hand look like? I have played about 5-6 hands so far in about 50 hands. I've mainly being card dead but as far as anyone with a HUD is concerened or paying attention I am a total NIT so my cold 4b range against a nit 3b is going to be AA and KK.
                    if villain is tight and competent then flatting would be fine, against him only, but you're three handed against a loose EP player and you're going to be OOP, so raise, even if you're effectively turning your hand face up

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by digiman View Post
                      Basically 4b pre makes the hand pretty easy to play for sure, but is it the most +EV play which is what I am most concerned about tbh.
                      ok its still early doors and a 4bet pre is deff the way to go you will get alot of donks calling off here with smaller pairs and ak aq type hands



                      "Remember the time he ate my goldfish? And you lied and said I never had goldfish. Then why did I have the bowl, Bart? Why did I have the bowl?"

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by 8611 View Post
                        I still don't understand! 10 changes nothing so why wouldn't we call?
                        Exactly..he's commenting on the fact that the As is the worst card in the deck for our hand.
                        Pining for Wa'erford

                        Comment


                          #13
                          i see...

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Basically asking what's our action if a perceived blank comes down on the turn..
                            Pining for Wa'erford

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by digiman View Post
                              Tournament is a $100 buyin, $35k on ipoker, Its and hour in and blinds are 60/120 with 5k affective stacks. EP raised to 320, folded to the button who makes it 520 (minraise) I'm in the SB with 2 red Kings. Button has been very tight (14/12) and I have been just as tight. EP is loose enough.

                              So I flat here with the plan of being cautious from here on, thoughts on preflop?

                              Flop comes 567ss (1680)

                              I check, EP checks and BB bets 1260, I call and EP folds

                              Turn is As, I check and Btn shoves, I fold.

                              Would like to hear peoples opinions on each street, also last question is do people check/call on a shove if a Th falls?
                              Imo 4betting is fine here and getting it in obv, I often find alot of players doing this min raise in position they often are strong..ish but rarely aces.

                              I do not mind your flat pre here as I like to play my hands like this because no1 is putting you on kk here as there is a player to act behind and standard play is to raise, I say go ahead why not take a risk while your far ahead,sure this leaves us to be sucked out easier but creates huge potential to be paid off and to call down bluffs as your line does look weak enough to be bluffed alot!

                              This will happen sometimes where really bad turns come, you do not know where you are and your obvious tight opponent is prob never moving all in without a hand that beats you here.

                              I like the way you played it! Again just my opinion and I defo prefer traps like this because there never seen...as long as you no what your doing of course!
                              Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                              My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                              My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Its better to win a small pot than lose a big pot. 4bet pre. playing oop against multiple players and giving decent reverse implied odds is a good way to get 'unlucky'.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Also buttons min raise priced in ep to call with a wide range so i would rule out aa from buttons range if he seems decent.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    It's better to take a calculated chance while your ahead to build a much needed stack for later than 4bet pre and take down the pot and its practically worth nothing to you within a few rounds of the table!!
                                    Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                    My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                    My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      A calculated chance? You might want to check the batteries on that equity calculator to decide if its a chance you want to take at this stage in the tournament and also oop to two players.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        What im trying to say is with slowplaying the hand the reward of the chips you stand to win is less than the value of the chips you risk losing in relation to your prizepool equity coupled with having to play it oop multiway so imo a 4bet is the most +EV move which is what the op is asking.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by digiman View Post
                                          Basically 4b pre makes the hand pretty easy to play for sure, but is it the most +EV play which is what I am most concerned about tbh.
                                          yeah I know that is what you are getting at but when a nit 3 bets pre and im sitting there with the KK it has to be a cold 4 bet. I mean chances are he isnt going to let TT-QQ and AK go (I know he might not 3bet TT and even JJ but QQ and AK are def in his 3bet range).

                                          the way the hand played out he has AK/AA/ even AQ most always which isnt really the point but I still 4 bet this pre. yo are ahead and get called far more than he has teh aces imo

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            i'd shove pre. cold calling a 3bet out of the blinds screams monster just as much as a shove.
                                            Looking for full or part time poker and betting writers. PM if interested.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              VPIP 14\12 is not very tight. He almost raising once per round. His opening range at 14% is like maybe 7+,A8s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KJo+,QJo.

                                              So what is he three betting with against a loose player opening from EP. If EP has been folding to 3 bets then it could be anything. Giving him a bit of credit btn has like 99+,AQs+,AQo+. But why the min raise? I think you just have to treat it like a normal 3 bet. Sometime it is strength, sometimes it is weekness.

                                              The only time you should be calling in this spot pre with kings is to trap. Saying that you are flatting to play cautious with your pre flop monster is not good.

                                              You should 4 bet here to 1200-1300 because there will be other times when you will be 4 betting here with air.
                                              Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by TheJoker View Post
                                                A calculated chance? You might want to check the batteries on that equity calculator to decide if its a chance you want to take at this stage in the tournament and also oop to two players.
                                                No need for smart comments to get your point across Joker! As I said in my first post everything I say is in my opinion how I like to play it! If I have kk in this hand with that action and your the utg raiser, you will never put me on kk here hense you will either 4bet yourself to get me off 1010 jj Aqs or ak or you will take a flop 3 way and with my weak line will probably overvalue your hand against me or try bluff me out!! This is the reward for my flat, why be so transparent all the time in these spots it's just not good towards your all round game!!

                                                Imo it keeps you stuck as a good decent player but never a brilliant/world class player that can mix his game up in any situation! Sure by all means take that 4bet cold route and keep your slight +ev but you can only make so much playing that way, imo you have got to play hands like these totally outside the box to keep the best players at your table constantly guessing as to what you can have in future hands you will be a nightmare to play against and that is defo a long term +ev to have at your disposal!!
                                                Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  if it were me i flat pre and check raise the flop,if he puts me in i call
                                                  but thats just what i would hav done

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                                    No need for smart comments to get your point across Joker! As I said in my first post everything I say is in my opinion how I like to play it! If I have kk in this hand with that action and your the utg raiser, you will never put me on kk here hense you will either 4bet yourself to get me off 1010 jj Aqs or ak or you will take a flop 3 way and with my weak line will probably overvalue your hand against me or try bluff me out!! This is the reward for my flat, why be so transparent all the time in these spots it's just not good towards your all round game!!

                                                    Imo it keeps you stuck as a good decent player but never a brilliant/world class player that can mix his game up in any situation! Sure by all means take that 4bet cold route and keep your slight +ev but you can only make so much playing that way, imo you have got to play hands like these totally outside the box to keep the best players at your table constantly guessing as to what you can have in future hands you will be a nightmare to play against and that is defo a long term +ev to have at your disposal!!
                                                    I disagree with lots of this

                                                    If any half decent player is utg and a tight player 3bets him and another tight player cold calls from the blinds its very unlikely he 4bets light 50BB deep. He is also unlikely to go nuts later on in the hand imo, as btn range is strong and sbs range is usually either very strong or he is a bad player setmining

                                                    There are reasons to flat in this hand, but trying to play your hand "outside the box" in this situation is not one of them imo. We are playing an online tourney against players we have very little history against and dont really know if they are any good. It might be different in a game where you have a lot of history against good regs

                                                    Suggesting you can never be a really good player if you like 4betting here is just wrong imo. I agree you should be open to flatting here, but both flatting and raising are viable options imo. I think raising is better, mainly because I think btn is pretty unlikely to fold, and may get away from certain hands after the flop, and also because we give utg great implied odds and will be oop. You prefer flatting, fair enough, but its not a case that anyone who likes raising can never vary their game or play good poker .

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Nothing constructive to add on hand. Blaaaaaah you use your exlamation points too haphazardly imo
                                                      Last edited by BobSloane; 15-08-10, 22:48.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Yup ok handofgod but like I said everything I said was in my opinion, sure not many ppl may like my advice because everyone playes different but my aim was to make ppl read into making more traps in precarios situations instead of always 4betting cold here as standard, i'm not saying always flat here either so you know that would make you transparent which is what i wrote down bottom of my post to avoid being like this is!!! The standard of play has increased latley and I think you need to think of new ways to trap opponents even if there is alot of risk involved!

                                                        Again just my opinion..

                                                        What is that your trying to say sloane?
                                                        Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                        My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                        My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Just that you cant go around exclaiming everything - unless maybe you were an Enid Blyton character. Sometimes you have to just say shit calmly, and use a full stop.

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Wow well I think thats harsh as I'm just saying what I think...you can challenge my ideas no problem but saying i'm proclaiming is just mental when i've stated more than once im just expressing my opinion!! I have the right to do that do I not?

                                                            I try to help in my own way and if I sound like i'm proclaiming its obvious you do not know me, ask few ppl that does know me and I bet they would never judge me like that!
                                                            Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                            My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                            My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                                              Wow well I think thats harsh as I'm just saying what I think...you can challenge my ideas no problem but saying i'm proclaiming is just mental when i've stated more than once im just expressing my opinion!! I have the right to do that do I not?

                                                              I try to help in my own way and if I sound like i'm proclaiming its obvious you do not know me, ask few ppl that does know me and I bet they would never judge me like that!
                                                              I think you are picking him wrong to be honest, thanks very much for your input in the thread.

                                                              My own view on it is that the decision on each street is very very close.

                                                              Preflop, I can cold 4bet here which is going to look super super strong. If I was doing this I would rather have total air or Aces as the hands he shoves over me on are probably going to be AK, QQ+. When I have KK well then its unlikely hes got them. I know thats a pretty obvious statement as everyone would love to have AA here. I just think that when someone cold 4bets an EP open who gets 3b by one of the tightest at the table then they are just rarely ever bluffing with 40bb and I have no blockers to AA. If it makes any sense or not this is another reason why I flat called as there are only 8 AK combos and 6 AA combos which is what this guys 5b shoving range is going to primarly consist off. So by flatting I keep in his bluffs and more of his weaker hands and let him spazz out on many different flops.

                                                              On the flop well this is a pretty good board for me, no T+ cards and pretty low, I am now much more worried about the EP guy hitting this baord than the BTN so I would sort of rather wait and see what he does after I act and I still have the chance of getting the button to take another stab at the turn so I elect to call rather than CRAI here. I was basically never folding this hand unless an A came and even then I was still not certain of folding.

                                                              The turn I guess is a fold, I am not totally happy with it as its a great bluff card for him and its less likely hes got AA and he also might not have bet the flop there with AK as he really can't expect me to get someone to fold an overpair on that baord which is what my range is going to consist of and basically on the turn when he shoves, very few worse cards than AK now call so hes not getting much value out of any hand only protecting his own from a 4 flush on the river.

                                                              Thought it was a pretty intersting hand with 3 very very close decisions were I wouldn't critize anyone for differing with the way I played the hand unless they had said fold before the turn!!

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                                                Wow well I think thats harsh as I'm just saying what I think...you can challenge my ideas no problem but saying i'm proclaiming is just mental when i've stated more than once im just expressing my opinion!! I have the right to do that do I not?

                                                                I try to help in my own way and if I sound like i'm proclaiming its obvious you do not know me, ask few ppl that does know me and I bet they would never judge me like that!

                                                                never said you were proclaiming anything. just a little exclamation mark humour(!). no offence intended

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by BobSloane View Post

                                                                  never said you were proclaiming anything. just a little exclamation mark humour(!). no offence intended
                                                                  My fault totally misread your comment I do apologise sir.

                                                                  I'm terrible for exclamation marks, texting is a killer for the english language I use them in every text.

                                                                  Again my fault bob!
                                                                  Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                  My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                  My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by digiman View Post
                                                                    The turn I guess is a fold, I am not totally happy with it as its a great bluff card for him and its less likely hes got AA and he also might not have bet the flop there with AK as he really can't expect me to get someone to fold an overpair on that baord which is what my range is going to consist of and basically on the turn when he shoves, very few worse cards than AK now call so hes not getting much value out of any hand only protecting his own from a 4 flush on the river.
                                                                    Yeah I agree with this and turn is definitely a closer decision than I thought. He shouldnt cbet AK, he is really repping only 3 combos that beat you. If I knew he was a good player I think I call turn

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by handofgod View Post
                                                                      Yeah I agree with this and turn is definitely a closer decision than I thought. He shouldnt cbet AK, he is really repping only 3 combos that beat you. If I knew he was a good player I think I call turn
                                                                      To be honest I doubt hes much good, just tight and no good players min 3b preflop that I have ever seen. He also did bet very quickly on the flop and turn, especially his turn shove. I forgot to mention that in my original post. I'm still not sure about the turn, its probably the street I am most unhappy about!!

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