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Old 03-11-16, 12:30   #21
Tar.Aldarion
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Where can I get the info to keep up to date on these recent poker trends?
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Old 03-11-16, 13:06   #22
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Originally Posted by Gholimoli View Post
i ask specific questions and every time you just talk rubbish ...

you say the range im giving hero for 3betting is absurd ,yet you have not said why nor have given an alternative range !!!

i ask why its bad to have half of T9s in ur 3beting range and gain you say nothing !

you say being competent has nothing to do with recognizing a 3betting range !!!
really?
wtf does being competent mean then?

you also seem to think that when a line is standard is the same thing as saying a line is mandatory ...it aint !

its standard to 3bet A7s there and its also standard to call with it depending on other factors ...one factor being how likely it is to be 4betted ?

the more likely you are to get 4 betted , then the less you should lean toward 3betitng with A7s ,and the less likely you are to get 4bet on, then the more you should lean towards 3betiing .

the wider his opening range then obv the less likely he is to 4bet ...and a serial raiser on CO has a very wide opening range .

i haven't watched much training videos in the past couple of years no but i bet i understand them a hell of a lot better than you,as its clear your fundamentals are just fucking awful !!!

i think alot of this is over your head to be honest and for that reason im out .


edit to say:
you also say you prefer 4betting the flop instead of calling, once our lead gets raised ...you say this while saying that you expect his raising range to include all the sets ,and this is the most retarted thing you have said yet !

so you advocating raising in a spot where you never get a better hand to fold and never get a worse hand to call and only get called by a better hand ?

fucking genius !!!

he is never raising the flop with A9+ ,never raising the flop with 22,33,55,66,77,88,TT,JJ ,AK,AJ ...so his flop raising range is either sets(according to you btw) or nothing which makes his range bluff heavy ...bluffs that you are ahead of anyway !
I talk rubbish. From the guy who spells retarded with a T. It's spelt "RETARDED"- if you're going to try and use an insult on my intelligence at least make sure you can spell basic words.

A random villian does not three-bet that many hands. Some players might but there is no way in hell we can assume some randomer will be 3-betting your range if we are the LAG. At this particular moment in time, we are a randomer to the LAG right? In what world should the LAG put us on this absurd 3-betting range? If he assumes we are good, we are going to flat a wide range and three-bet some bluffs and some value hands.

This is how poker is these days, it's how it's played. The game has evolved from randomly inflating pots pre in late position, people are much more likely to see three and try and take their equity. Defending your BB is universally the done thing these days because people realise with the pot odds your getting to a raise you're going to actually turn a profit more often than not. Especially with a hand like A7 suited.

I never said it was bad. Your reading ability is absolutely shocking. Calm down and try and understand the VERY basic points I'm making here. I said the range you constructed for an randomer in the BB is absurd.Another person has even agreed with me in this thread and i'm sure countless other people would as well. Especially those who play tournament poker regularly these.

I believe that taking a flop here with A7 is much better than 3-betting than inflating a pot out of position against the only aggressive player at the table. Our table is packed with passive players supposed, just like random €200 live games are.

Fine if the table was packed with good players but it won't be, especially at this stage. Keep the pots small against the better players out of position. In what world is that rubbish? It couldn't make any more sense if I tried.

At 50/100 being competent is fine but there isn't a player who alive who could construct absurd range you have constructed without having some prior knowledge. If you're just going to assume that's what randomers 3-bet in a live tournament you really are beyond help.

I disagree the 3-bet is standard. The majority of good players would flat this spot these days because our hand flops so bloody well. I can see the argument for 3-betting but i'm against it. I think it puts us in tough positions like the one we are in now and unless we're very confident in our post-flop game we usually butcher our hand like we have done in this spot. We have got to the turn where we have turned one of the best cards in the deck for us and have literally no idea what the fuck we are going to do. Poker is all about thinking ahead, it's clear from our initial mistake we haven't been thinking ahead. It's clear from our flop call we haven't been thinking ahead. Therefore, we are in process of butchering this hand. Make sense? I don't know how I can make it any more basic for you. Bullet points might be the only thing I can do after this.

Over my head? The sheer irony of that. If you want to run away and hide when you're clearly wrong that's fine with me. It's blatantly obvious you have no idea what's going on in modern tournament poker, which is fine, but don't expect me to sit idle by while you talk absolute horseshite.

How is it retarded (d instead of t)? If he puts us in or calls us it's clear he's not bluffing and we just release our hand. We not 3-betting the flop for value for fuck sake. These basic concepts are quite clearly lost on you. Bluffing is a part of poker and our flop 3-bet is obviously a bluff. I know bluffing in poker.....WTF is going on?

So your plan is to pray he is bluffing and call down with A7 of clubs? My god.

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Old 03-11-16, 17:47   #23
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Fold pre, saves all this needless hassle.
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Old 03-11-16, 18:44   #24
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Originally Posted by peterswellman View Post
I talk rubbish. From the guy who spells retarded with a T. It's spelt "RETARDED"- if you're going to try and use an insult on my intelligence at least make sure you can spell basic words.

A random villian does not three-bet that many hands. Some players might but there is no way in hell we can assume some randomer will be 3-betting your range if we are the LAG. At this particular moment in time, we are a randomer to the LAG right? In what world should the LAG put us on this absurd 3-betting range? If he assumes we are good, we are going to flat a wide range and three-bet some bluffs and some value hands.

This is how poker is these days, it's how it's played. The game has evolved from randomly inflating pots pre in late position, people are much more likely to see three and try and take their equity. Defending your BB is universally the done thing these days because people realise with the pot odds your getting to a raise you're going to actually turn a profit more often than not. Especially with a hand like A7 suited.

I never said it was bad. Your reading ability is absolutely shocking. Calm down and try and understand the VERY basic points I'm making here. I said the range you constructed for an randomer in the BB is absurd.Another person has even agreed with me in this thread and i'm sure countless other people would as well. Especially those who play tournament poker regularly these.

I believe that taking a flop here with A7 is much better than 3-betting than inflating a pot out of position against the only aggressive player at the table. Our table is packed with passive players supposed, just like random 200 live games are.

Fine if the table was packed with good players but it won't be, especially at this stage. Keep the pots small against the better players out of position. In what world is that rubbish? It couldn't make any more sense if I tried.

At 50/100 being competent is fine but there isn't a player who alive who could construct absurd range you have constructed without having some prior knowledge. If you're just going to assume that's what randomers 3-bet in a live tournament you really are beyond help.

I disagree the 3-bet is standard. The majority of good players would flat this spot these days because our hand flops so bloody well. I can see the argument for 3-betting but i'm against it. I think it puts us in tough positions like the one we are in now and unless we're very confident in our post-flop game we usually butcher our hand like we have done in this spot. We have got to the turn where we have turned one of the best cards in the deck for us and have literally no idea what the fuck we are going to do. Poker is all about thinking ahead, it's clear from our initial mistake we haven't been thinking ahead. It's clear from our flop call we haven't been thinking ahead. Therefore, we are in process of butchering this hand. Make sense? I don't know how I can make it any more basic for you. Bullet points might be the only thing I can do after this.

Over my head? The sheer irony of that. If you want to run away and hide when you're clearly wrong that's fine with me. It's blatantly obvious you have no idea what's going on in modern tournament poker, which is fine, but don't expect me to sit idle by while you talk absolute horseshite.

How is it retarded (d instead of t)? If he puts us in or calls us it's clear he's not bluffing and we just release our hand. We not 3-betting the flop for value for fuck sake. These basic concepts are quite clearly lost on you. Bluffing is a part of poker and our flop 3-bet is obviously a bluff. I know bluffing in poker.....WTF is going on?

So your plan is to pray he is bluffing and call down with A7 of clubs? My god.
i was really tired today and English ain't my first language ,so made some spelling mistakes...get over it lad !

i keep asking you to give me what u think is an accurate 3betting range, from the BB versus, this particular opponent ...and you don't !

why?

lets give BB a tighter 3betting range then ,shall we ?

lets say he 3bets :

AA 6combos
KK 6combos
QQ 3combos
AK 16combos
JJ 6combos

and some 34 45s 62 type of hand at the very bottom of his range for balance ,lets say we give him a total of 8 combos of these to make his range nut heavy ,like you say it is .

so thats a total of 45 combos ,of which 15 are value and rest are not !!!
so 33% of his range in this case is value and nutty and 67% weak !

why the fuck would i raise sets against this range?
why the fuck would i wanna get rid of 2/3 of his range when i have him crushed and should take the best value line?

what is obvious you don't understand ,is how a single hand combo can impact ranges in some spots on some boards !!!

here his total value combos is gonna be AA,KK,QQ no matter what and that is a total of 15 combos .
if you give him even a single combo of another unpaired hand, then you are automatically at a point where most of his range (more than 50% of it) has whiffed here !

how is that range nut heavy?

what is also clear that you don't understand, is how the presence or absence of a particular card ,on flops ,can impact ranges !

here the absence of A and then a K on flop makes his range weak !

the tighter you make his 3betting range,the more true the above is.

so thats ur raising with sets ...

then you say you prefer 4betting flop instead of calling !!!

my lord ...

so we have a range that even if you give it a single unpaired hand combo is 50% weak ,and if you give it my above range ,is 67% weak and you think it is preferable to 4bet than to call his 3bet ???

in a spot where his 3bet range never has A8,A9,AT,AJ,AK ,never has 22-33,55,66,77,88,TT,JJ

you wanna ,as you say, 4bet bluff in this spot?

you think its a good spot to bluff when everything he folds you are already ahead of?

don't just talk rubbish lad ,give me ranges,give me numbers ,give me hands ...

you say you wanna do this as a bluff ?

give me a single hand that you think he folds here when you 4bet that you are not already ahead of ???

i love to know what you think villain's raise folding range is here?
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Old 03-11-16, 21:23   #25
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well, that was a fun read.
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Old 03-11-16, 21:45   #26
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also since when does A7s "flop so bloody well" ?
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Old 03-11-16, 22:28   #27
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also since when does A7s "flop so bloody well" ?
Suited hands are unbeatable obviously
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Old 03-11-16, 22:31   #28
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i was really tired today and English ain't my first language ,so made some spelling mistakes...get over it lad !

i keep asking you to give me what u think is an accurate 3betting range, from the BB versus, this particular opponent ...and you don't !

why?

lets give BB a tighter 3betting range then ,shall we ?

lets say he 3bets :

AA 6combos
KK 6combos
QQ 3combos
AK 16combos
JJ 6combos

and some 34 45s 62 type of hand at the very bottom of his range for balance ,lets say we give him a total of 8 combos of these to make his range nut heavy ,like you say it is .

so thats a total of 45 combos ,of which 15 are value and rest are not !!!
so 33% of his range in this case is value and nutty and 67% weak !

why the fuck would i raise sets against this range?
why the fuck would i wanna get rid of 2/3 of his range when i have him crushed and should take the best value line?

what is obvious you don't understand ,is how a single hand combo can impact ranges in some spots on some boards !!!

here his total value combos is gonna be AA,KK,QQ no matter what and that is a total of 15 combos .
if you give him even a single combo of another unpaired hand, then you are automatically at a point where most of his range (more than 50% of it) has whiffed here !

how is that range nut heavy?

what is also clear that you don't understand, is how the presence or absence of a particular card ,on flops ,can impact ranges !

here the absence of A and then a K on flop makes his range weak !

the tighter you make his 3betting range,the more true the above is.

so thats ur raising with sets ...

then you say you prefer 4betting flop instead of calling !!!

my lord ...

so we have a range that even if you give it a single unpaired hand combo is 50% weak ,and if you give it my above range ,is 67% weak and you think it is preferable to 4bet than to call his 3bet ???

in a spot where his 3bet range never has A8,A9,AT,AJ,AK ,never has 22-33,55,66,77,88,TT,JJ

you wanna ,as you say, 4bet bluff in this spot?

you think its a good spot to bluff when everything he folds you are already ahead of?

don't just talk rubbish lad ,give me ranges,give me numbers ,give me hands ...

you say you wanna do this as a bluff ?

give me a single hand that you think he folds here when you 4bet that you are not already ahead of ???

i love to know what you think villain's raise folding range is here?
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Old 03-11-16, 23:40   #29
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also on hand.

i flat pre instead of 3b, hand actually doesnt flop as well as swellman thinks but, the reason we flat is we are ahead of villains LP opening range a decent amount of the time. hands i would 3b this deep.

suited connectors(34s/45s/56s/67s/78s/89s/9Ts) suited broadways /KTs/QTs/JTs/KJs/QJs/KQs, TT+ AJo+ A2s/A3s/A4s/A5s. all off suit hands of the hands in that range are 3bs also to some frequency so we dont end up flatting all our offsuit hands and 3bing all our suited hands. others have different styles and prefer to 3b a polarised range instead of a non-polarised range. i call them nits.(joking not joking)

we obv dont have to 3b this range everytime its dealt to us in this spot either obv its fine to flat all of those hands aswell, but we should be 3bing them at a decent frequency also.

post is whatever, we prob dont need to cbet 1.2k into 1.8k either he folds all his thrash he peeled pre that bricks and is calling( or raising in this case) with hands that have flopped some kind of equity(KJ/JT/8T) its possible he is raising his Qx and i wouldnt rule it out given standard of liveaments and i genuinely wouldnt rule out him raising 9x either, cos he feels he needs to protect incase an A or a K come on turn(people do this alot). i highly doubt he is raising sets here also and i doubt he knows what your 3b range would look like anyways. not saying its not good to raise sets here at this stack depth, but if he doesnt know what your 3b range is in this spot, then he wouldnt know what hands he wants to get value from either so would revert to calling unless he thinks you are gonna stick in 150bbs+ with AA/KK. also dont think its very good to 3b his flop raise, we dont rep much at all when we do this and end up super bluff heavy ourselves and it would also fuck SPR on turns if flatted i think(we'd have to make it like 8k to even expect folds and leave ourselves something like 1-2 SPR)
so yeah that would be atrocious to do that. in all, post i would cbet like 30-35% pot and barrel turns that bring us some equity. prob just gonna fold to his raise now and see if he does it continually.



sorry if thats^^ all jibberish im pretty terrible at articulating my thoughts(is articulating the correct word here?) prob missed some stuff too.

EDIT: its possible he has some pure bluffs also that just completely whiff the flop, but he is gonna barrel turns alot and we will end up having to fold alot anyways so another reason why i prefer folding flop to raise.

EDIT: suited gappers obv in with the suited connectors 3b range also.
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Old 04-11-16, 00:04   #30
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Originally Posted by Gholimoli View Post
hero's 3betting range here is :
AA 6 combos
KK 6 combos
QQ 3 combos
JJ 6 combos
TT 6 combos
99 3 combos
AK 16 combos
AQ 12 combos
KQs 3 combos
QJs 3combos
some suited Axs that blocks an A and some suited Kxs that blocks a K
Axs we give him 12 combos of this
Kxs we give him 8 combos of this
some suited connectors like :
78s 2 combos we give him half these combos and assume he flats with them the other.
89s 2 combos
9Ts 2 combos
JTs 2 combos

so his entire range (give or take a few combos) is : 92 combos

of those his total value combos are:
AA +KK +QQ +AQ +KQ +QJ +99 = 36

so when hero leads the flop , then 60% of his range has missed and when we raise with our sets we get rid of 60% of his range which i would assume any competent player to know is really bad.
A bit late to the party. And a lot concurrent points made, so just picking out one or two.

People will disagree on ranges all day long. So not going to go down that route as its completely subjective.
The bolded part above highlights the pretty big mistake in your thinking. There's no way you can say that. It's simply incorrect, and we know that for certain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gholimoli View Post
AA 6combos
KK 6combos
QQ 3combos
AK 16combos
JJ 6combos

and some 34 45s 62 type of hand at the very bottom of his range for balance ,lets say we give him a total of 8 combos of these to make his range nut heavy ,like you say it is .

so thats a total of 45 combos ,of which 15 are value and rest are not !!!
so 33% of his range in this case is value and nutty and 67% weak !

why the fuck would i raise sets against this range?
why the fuck would i wanna get rid of 2/3 of his range when i have him crushed and should take the best value line?
Again, same mistake. It's just not true.

The reason you are giving to flatting a set are exactly the reasons I'm putting money in.
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Old 04-11-16, 01:32   #31
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Old 04-11-16, 15:50   #32
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A bit late to the party. And a lot concurrent points made, so just picking out one or two.

People will disagree on ranges all day long. So not going to go down that route as its completely subjective.
The bolded part above highlights the pretty big mistake in your thinking. There's no way you can say that. It's simply incorrect, and we know that for certain.


Again, same mistake. It's just not true.

The reason you are giving to flatting a set are exactly the reasons I'm putting money in.
So ur saying that he won't fold all his bluffs when we 3bet flop ?
So he is likely to get 150bbs in on Q94 board with like JJ or AK ?

If that's the case then obv raise ur sets but man we play in totally different games then if so !
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Old 04-11-16, 22:18   #33
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got knocked out of a tourney i was looking forward to all week and didn't have anything better to do on Friday night so thought i come here and try and actually get numbers down for the lines I'm recommending :

lets say villains range for calling our 3bet is this:

AQ (don't think he will 4bet AQ but he may 4bet with AQs so 7 combos)
AK (we give him less than half and assume he 4bets with other half so 4 combos)
AJ (we say he calls with 12 of them and folds 4 of them )
AT (say he only calls ATs and couple of other combos of it so 5 combos)
QQ (say he has one combo of this as he mostly 4bets them)
QJ (we give him 8 of these and say he folds the other times)
KJ (say he calls with 12 and folds 4 )
KQ (we give him all of these so 12 combos)
KTs 4combos
QTs 3combos
J9s 3combos
Q9s 2combos
Q8s 3combos
JJ 6 combos
TT 6 combos
99 3 combos
88 6 combos
77 6 combos
66 6 combos
55 6 combos
44 3 combos
33 6combos
22 6 combos
A9s 2combos
A8s 3combos
A7s 3combos
A6s 3combos
A5s 3combos
A4s 3combos
A3s 3combos
A2 3combos
JTs 4combos
T9s 3combos
78s 2combos
67s 2combos
K9s 3combos
-----------------
167 combos (i think)

150 effective stack ,i think the above is a reasonable range for a LAG guy to call in position.

im not saying the above range is correct but i think its reasonable ,cuz i think he has all the above in his opening range obviously and its reasonable to assume this deep ,he calls with them ...but correct me if you think I'm wrong !

so thats a total of 167 combos !

his value hands are then AQ,KQ,QJs,Q9s,Q8s,QTs,QQ,99,44,J9s,T9s,A9s,K9s for a total of
50 combos!

so 167(or there abouts) total 3bet-calling range, and 50 of them has a bit of it !

thats about 30% value and 70% whiff ...

so my plan for the hand post flop is to lead because :

i think our hand is not strong enough to check/call and too strong to check/fold so i think leading is superior .

based on my ranges,i expect a lead to get called by all the 50 combos above ,and also his:

KJ,AK,KT,JT, and not much else...so all his gutters and all his made hands and his AK gonna call our lead .

thats a total of 50 + 22 =72 or 43% of his range .

so he calls a lead 43% and folds 57% .

say we lead for half the pot,so we are getting 2/1 on our money ,which means he only has to fold 33% for us to break even !

with the ranges i assumed, we have a nice 24% pocket here ...even if my ranges are wrong there is a lot of of +EV here to play with still !(unless I'm waaaay wrong )

now say our lead gets called ...we know he has some 9 and some gutters in his range for calling the lead, so lets see what we can do on the turn :

his gutters and open-enders are KT,KJ,JT = 20 combos
he also has AK in his range when he calls flop = 2 combos
his 9s are J9s,A9s,K9s, = 9 combos

say he folds 1/4 of his combos of 9 to a second barrel so he folds 2 combos .

so if we 2nd barrel he folds 20+2+2 =24 combos ...thats like 33% of his total 72 combos that he has on the turn!

so say we lead turn for 50% again ...again we are getting 2/1 on our bluff and he only has to fold 33% of the time to break even.
and he does ...

i will double barrel the turn if its not a K,J,T so thats like 70% or more of the turns !

thats not taking in to account the times we hit an A by river or pick up a flush draw on turn and get there on the river !!!

so we are not button clicking,we haven't butchered the hand,we are not closing our eyes hoping for this card or that card,we have analysed ranges before and we have a plan and going to try and go with it !!!

is this accepted in this evolved tournament game of now that you have mastered ?
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Old 04-11-16, 22:58   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gholimoli View Post
got knocked out of a tourney i was looking forward to all week and didn't have anything better to do on Friday night so thought i come here and try and actually get numbers down for the lines I'm recommending :

lets say villains range for calling our 3bet is this:

AQ (don't think he will 4bet AQ but he may 4bet with AQs so 7 combos)
AK (we give him less than half and assume he 4bets with other half so 4 combos)
AJ (we say he calls with 12 of them and folds 4 of them )
AT (say he only calls ATs and couple of other combos of it so 5 combos)
QQ (say he has one combo of this as he mostly 4bets them)
QJ (we give him 8 of these and say he folds the other times)
KJ (say he calls with 12 and folds 4 )
KQ (we give him all of these so 12 combos)
KTs 4combos
QTs 3combos
J9s 3combos
Q9s 2combos
Q8s 3combos
JJ 6 combos
TT 6 combos
99 3 combos
88 6 combos
77 6 combos
66 6 combos
55 6 combos
44 3 combos
33 6combos
22 6 combos
A9s 2combos
A8s 3combos
A7s 3combos
A6s 3combos
A5s 3combos
A4s 3combos
A3s 3combos
A2 3combos
JTs 4combos
T9s 3combos
78s 2combos
67s 2combos
K9s 3combos
-----------------
167 combos (i think)

150 effective stack ,i think the above is a reasonable range for a LAG guy to call in position.

im not saying the above range is correct but i think its reasonable ,cuz i think he has all the above in his opening range obviously and its reasonable to assume this deep ,he calls with them ...but correct me if you think I'm wrong !

so thats a total of 167 combos !

his value hands are then AQ,KQ,QJs,Q9s,Q8s,QTs,QQ,99,44,J9s,T9s,A9s,K9s for a total of
50 combos!

so 167(or there abouts) total 3bet-calling range, and 50 of them has a bit of it !

thats about 30% value and 70% whiff ...

so my plan for the hand post flop is to lead because :

i think our hand is not strong enough to check/call and too strong to check/fold so i think leading is superior .

based on my ranges,i expect a lead to get called by all the 50 combos above ,and also his:

KJ,AK,KT,JT, and not much else...so all his gutters and all his made hands and his AK gonna call our lead .

thats a total of 50 + 22 =72 or 43% of his range .

so he calls a lead 43% and folds 57% .

say we lead for half the pot,so we are getting 2/1 on our money ,which means he only has to fold 33% for us to break even !

with the ranges i assumed, we have a nice 24% pocket here ...even if my ranges are wrong there is a lot of of +EV here to play with still !(unless I'm waaaay wrong )

now say our lead gets called ...we know he has some 9 and some gutters in his range for calling the lead, so lets see what we can do on the turn :

his gutters and open-enders are KT,KJ,JT = 20 combos
he also has AK in his range when he calls flop = 2 combos
his 9s are J9s,A9s,K9s, = 9 combos

say he folds 1/4 of his combos of 9 to a second barrel so he folds 2 combos .

so if we 2nd barrel he folds 20+2+2 =24 combos ...thats like 33% of his total 72 combos that he has on the turn!

so say we lead turn for 50% again ...again we are getting 2/1 on our bluff and he only has to fold 33% of the time to break even.
and he does ...

i will double barrel the turn if its not a K,J,T so thats like 70% or more of the turns !

thats not taking in to account the times we hit an A by river or pick up a flush draw on turn and get there on the river !!!

so we are not button clicking,we haven't butchered the hand,we are not closing our eyes hoping for this card or that card,we have analysed ranges before and we have a plan and going to try and go with it !!!

is this accepted in this evolved tournament game of now that you have mastered ?
you arent wrong thats for sure, and i agree with you, also one thing i think thats been overlooked here is the size of the 3b pre, it should be bigger at this stack depth and personally i think villain is peeling his entire opening range or very close to it so i think he's actually wider here than you think, and that makes your line better.
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Old 04-11-16, 23:40   #35
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these are great

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Old 05-11-16, 18:37   #36
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so i discussed my plans for flop play and also why i think calling his 3bet on the flop is much better than 4betting.

now on to pre-flop and why i think 3betting is better than calling .

basically it has to do with range manipulation and how a 3bet impacts ranges !

say we accept his 3bet calling range i provided in the last post .
so he has 167 combos or there abouts...

of those about 52 combos contains an A and 84 combos contains either an A or K .

so 167/52=31% contains an A
and 167/84 =50% contains A or a K

now consider what his open range is ...i think its fair to say he has at least another 70 to 80 combos that he opens with but will fold to our 3bet...so hands like Kxs and Qxs and 45s and 74s and stuff like that .

say we give him 70 more combos that we opens with so that makes his opening combos a total of 167+ 70 =237 .

still only 52 of them contains an A so this time 237/52 =22.2 %

what I'm trying to get at, is by 3betting pre with A7(or any A blocker really) ,you have engineered a spot where you have made his range a lot more A heavy than normal,while also blocking an A .

so say normally 40% of flops contains an A or a K when you don't hold any blockers...with a blocker then that numbers drops to about 36% i would imagine !!!

so half his range or 50% of it contains an A or a K(when we 3bet) but he only flops them 36% .

but if we don't 3bet pre then only 237/84 = 35% of his range contains an A or K and he flops an A or K still 36% of the time .

so the reason why its profitable to double barrel flop and turn ,when there is no A or K on flop is due to this pre-flop range manipulation !!!

and thats caused by3betting preflop and how that impacts his ranges !

also when we lead flop ,again we manipulate his range ...when we lead flop that will get rid of almost all his A combos (except AQ and AK obv) .

so while an A on flop is litterly the worse card for you,by leading flop you create a situation where an A on the turn is actually one of the best cards for you !!!

but if you don't lead then his range will contain the same number of hand combos on the turn as it does on the flop ...like wise pre-flop .

the only bad thing about 3betting pre flop is if you get 4bet...but blocking an A decreases the chances of that happening cuz most of his 4betting range is AA,AK,AQ and u block some of them !!!

so essentially what 3betting pre achieves with A7s ,is to manipulate his range towards our blockers !!!

there is simply no better card in the deck to have as a blocker, that can impact his 4betting range,and impact his flop hitting range like an A blocker !

so again,we are not bloating the pot oop,we are not clicking buttons,we are not butchering anything...we are manipulating a range and taking advantage of the profitable situations it brings!!!

but you are right in that i learned all the above around 2005,2006 and since then the game must have moved on a lot and passed me by so i don't know how you cool kids are doing it these days .
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Old 05-11-16, 20:23   #37
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So what is your 3 betting range going to be? I still dont like turning a hand as strong as A7s into a bluff against a lag.
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Old 05-11-16, 21:20   #38
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It's only a concern if the Lag has a high 4bet frequency, which he almost definitely doesn't
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Old 05-11-16, 21:33   #39
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Originally Posted by bohsman View Post
So what is your 3 betting range going to be? I still dont like turning a hand as strong as A7s into a bluff against a lag.
my 3bet range depends on my opponents opening range,how deep effective stacks are, and how well i think he plays post flop.

also your not turning anything in to a bluff at all !
by definition ,a bluff is a bet that when called ,has no chance of wining ...its not at all the case here !

if CO opens a range of 35% then A7s runs very close in equity to that and certainly not the case where you only get called by better.
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Old 05-11-16, 21:35   #40
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Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
It's only a concern if the Lag has a high 4bet frequency, which he almost definitely doesn't
i agree...my point was what needs to be considered .

obviously the wider his opening range ,the smaller his 4bet frequency and even less so when we block some of it !!!
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