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Old 12-10-16, 11:18   #1
Finn89
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Interesting Turn Spot

Howdy folks.

This hand has been replaying in my head, interested to hear some opinions.

Tourney was a 200 deepstack live event, table was relatively passive apart from young villain who was playing lag and was regularly raising from mid to late position.

Blinds 50/100

Villain raises in CO 300 (stack 20,000)
Folds to Hero in BB with A7cc (stack 16,000)
Hero raises to 900, Villain tanks for a bit then flat calls.
Flop is 4s 9h Qc.
Hero bets 1200, CO raises to 2600, hero calls raise.
Turn is a 3c.

Thoughts on next move from here?
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Old 12-10-16, 12:15   #2
Flushdraw
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I just flat pre.

It's ok to fold flop to the raise. You're going to be guessing on a lot of turns and will probably end up check/folding to more pressure. As played, start with a check and either call/fold depending on sizing. Not crazy on playing potentially 320bb pots OOP with a draw this early in a deepstack tournament.

Villain doesn't rep a lot though. KJ/J10 seem likely, but would want more solid reads.
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Old 12-10-16, 12:55   #3
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Thanks for this man, appreciate the input.

Yeah, I wasn't really buying his flop raise, and this is where my difficulty lay.
He was a good, young poker dude who i got the impression played a lot online, and had looked to have made a coupe disciplined folds in the past hour that we had playing together.
Generally in early deep stack tournaments I like to pressure opponents in order to build a stack which can look very spewy when it doesn't work, but is a strategy I've had a bit of success with.

My thought process on calling the flop raise was that if I completely whiffed the turn it would be an easy check-fold, but that if a club came on turn would I:

Bet into him if I'm still putting him on a draw, q10 or qj
Check - SHOVE (lol or not?) if he bet around 3/4 of pot (is he ever folding a queen here?)

I don't like the check call here because it's very difficult to make hero call on river even if draws etc miss, and just think it would be the weakest play.

Taking the route of calling preflop and floating the flop, if the 3c arrives on the turn, what is your view from here?
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Old 12-10-16, 23:33   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn89 View Post
Thanks for this man, appreciate the input.

Yeah, I wasn't really buying his flop raise, and this is where my difficulty lay.
He was a good, young poker dude who i got the impression played a lot online, and had looked to have made a coupe disciplined folds in the past hour that we had playing together.
Generally in early deep stack tournaments I like to pressure opponents in order to build a stack which can look very spewy when it doesn't work, but is a strategy I've had a bit of success with.

My thought process on calling the flop raise was that if I completely whiffed the turn it would be an easy check-fold, but that if a club came on turn would I:

Bet into him if I'm still putting him on a draw, q10 or qj
Check - SHOVE (lol or not?) if he bet around 3/4 of pot (is he ever folding a queen here?)

I don't like the check call here because it's very difficult to make hero call on river even if draws etc miss, and just think it would be the weakest play.

Taking the route of calling preflop and floating the flop, if the 3c arrives on the turn, what is your view from here?
I have been out of the game for a good while but I can't see any sense in this thought at all. Your putting another 14bb's in so that you can check/fold to most of the deck. Does that mean you are going broke on a turn Ace?
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Old 13-10-16, 04:41   #5
Hectorjelly
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Calling the flop is going to be -ev if you are only continuing on a club. There aren't enough clubs in the deck to make it profitable. I agree with your assessment on his likely range, he is pretty much representing nothing. You have a few options on the turn, here are the two I think are best

1) Check call - this allows him to continue bluffing and ensures you get to realise your equity, if you do this then you really need to lead the river almost no matter what it is, as you really don't want to lose to a pair of two or threes that were turned into a bluff.

2) Lead - This has the advantage of winning the pot now, we might get villain off a small piece of the board, and also cut down on the risk of KT or similar drawing out on us. You need to make a decision as to what to do on the river should he call, i'd take into account his reaction to your bet (which is really important as taking the betting lead is very unusual and players will tend to give you a pretty honest first reaction) and the river. KQ and better is calling on two streets here though, so factor that into your decision.

Option 2 really requires a good image as we are taking an unusual line and may induce a light call/raise, based on what you have said I'd go with option 1.
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Old 13-10-16, 08:38   #6
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Totally agree with Tony and agree with Darragh if you still want to play the hand aggressively on the turn and try to win the pot, but honestly, playing a decent lag player oop at this stage is just stupid and will get you into trouble more times then will be successful. Against a weak or poor player, no problem. But once he raises the flop you should be finish with the hand and wp to him.
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Old 28-10-16, 14:50   #7
Gholimoli
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villain is repping fuck all by raising flop .

your thought process for calling the flop should be the above,not "im gonna check fold turn if i dont improve " .

villain would call your flop bet with his AQ,KQ,QJ or any other Q .
sometimes he has AA here but less so than often as you block an A and some times he has KK.

will all his sets he would just call your flop bet more than likely.

with his better aces he would also call.so by raising he is bluffing alot of the time and ur A high is actually the best hand,which means its gonna be the best hand on alot of turns too.

i would call his flop raise with the intention of either check /raising turn or if turn goes check/check then potting the river regardless of what comes out on turn and river.
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Old 28-10-16, 21:32   #8
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This hand is butchered from start to finish. I really don't even know where to start.
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Old 28-10-16, 21:33   #9
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Originally Posted by Gholimoli View Post
villain is repping fuck all by raising flop .

your thought process for calling the flop should be the above,not "im gonna check fold turn if i dont improve " .

villain would call your flop bet with his AQ,KQ,QJ or any other Q .
sometimes he has AA here but less so than often as you block an A and some times he has KK.

will all his sets he would just call your flop bet more than likely.

with his better aces he would also call.so by raising he is bluffing alot of the time and ur A high is actually the best hand,which means its gonna be the best hand on alot of turns too.

i would call his flop raise with the intention of either check /raising turn or if turn goes check/check then potting the river regardless of what comes out on turn and river.
Would disagree with heaps of this also, if the guy is a good competent LAG I see no reason why he wouldn't play sets this way.
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Old 02-11-16, 17:24   #10
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Originally Posted by peterswellman View Post
Would disagree with heaps of this also, if the guy is a good competent LAG I see no reason why he wouldn't play sets this way.
hero's 3betting range here is :
AA 6 combos
KK 6 combos
QQ 3 combos
JJ 6 combos
TT 6 combos
99 3 combos
AK 16 combos
AQ 12 combos
KQs 3 combos
QJs 3combos
some suited Axs that blocks an A and some suited Kxs that blocks a K
Axs we give him 12 combos of this
Kxs we give him 8 combos of this
some suited connectors like :
78s 2 combos we give him half these combos and assume he flats with them the other.
89s 2 combos
9Ts 2 combos
JTs 2 combos

so his entire range (give or take a few combos) is : 92 combos

of those his total value combos are:
AA +KK +QQ +AQ +KQ +QJ +99 = 36

so when hero leads the flop , then 60% of his range has missed and when we raise with our sets we get rid of 60% of his range which i would assume any competent player to know is really bad.

versus the other 40% of his value range is also much better to slow play as there are many safe cards on the turn that is gonna make hero bet anyway.

so i would argue that any competent player should just flat sets on this board in thus spot.
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Old 02-11-16, 17:32   #11
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Originally Posted by peterswellman View Post
This hand is butchered from start to finish. I really don't even know where to start.
hand is not butchered any where really.

pre-flop is pretty standard 3bet versus an active open from CO.

flop lead is pretty standard too and i would actually hate any other play than a lead.

flop call of 3 bet is pretty standard too and again i wouldn't like any other play.

what exactly is butchered and why?
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Old 02-11-16, 18:51   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gholimoli View Post
hand is not butchered any where really.

pre-flop is pretty standard 3bet versus an active open from CO.

flop lead is pretty standard too and i would actually hate any other play than a lead.

flop call of 3 bet is pretty standard too and again i wouldn't like any other play.

what exactly is butchered and why?
Prefer flatting this hand in BB. Is hero 3-Betting for Value out of position OR to Induce a fold from worse ? Villain sounds like he's never folding so why put ourselves in this spot OOP ? (this deep)

Makes more sense to call and realise our equity in my opinion. The rest of the hand is simply compounding our mistake/s.

FWIW - I think the 3-betting range you are giving Villain out of the BB is off the charts.
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Old 02-11-16, 23:17   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gholimoli View Post
hero's 3betting range here is :
AA 6 combos
KK 6 combos
QQ 3 combos
JJ 6 combos
TT 6 combos
99 3 combos
AK 16 combos
AQ 12 combos
KQs 3 combos
QJs 3combos
some suited Axs that blocks an A and some suited Kxs that blocks a K
Axs we give him 12 combos of this
Kxs we give him 8 combos of this
some suited connectors like :
78s 2 combos we give him half these combos and assume he flats with them the other.
89s 2 combos
9Ts 2 combos
JTs 2 combos

so his entire range (give or take a few combos) is : 92 combos

of those his total value combos are:
AA +KK +QQ +AQ +KQ +QJ +99 = 36

so when hero leads the flop , then 60% of his range has missed and when we raise with our sets we get rid of 60% of his range which i would assume any competent player to know is really bad.

versus the other 40% of his value range is also much better to slow play as there are many safe cards on the turn that is gonna make hero bet anyway.

so i would argue that any competent player should just flat sets on this board in thus spot.
You do realise that at this point of the tournament the chances are the villain as literally zero clue what our 3-betting range is. How in gods name is he going to know we 3-bet QJs but no QJ off at 50/100 in a live €200?

You're making so many ridiculous assumptions in this post it's frankly hilarious.

Villain has literally no idea we aren't nutted. It's fucking 50/100 of a live 200 deep stack not some SHR where we have played heaps of hands together and a bunch of history,

A lag should live up to reputation. So many good players would see the value in a raise here, just because you don't or play a different style doesn't make it wrong.

Last edited by peterswellman; 02-11-16 at 23:32.
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Old 02-11-16, 23:29   #14
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Originally Posted by Gholimoli View Post
hand is not butchered any where really.

pre-flop is pretty standard 3bet versus an active open from CO.

flop lead is pretty standard too and i would actually hate any other play than a lead.

flop call of 3 bet is pretty standard too and again i wouldn't like any other play.

what exactly is butchered and why?
It is butchered, it's literally so much button clicking I don't even know.

I would argue it's a standard flat this deep preflop. Why is it a standard 3-bet deep we're inflating a pot OOP with a hand that flops pretty well against a wide range. By 3-betting not only are we widening this range to mostly better hands, we are giving up the opportunity occasionally to see a flop with a hand that should be good to see flops with. We are three betting standardly because?

Our flop lead is fine if we three-bet. I think the flop flat to raise is pretty bad and makes it very difficult for us to win this pot. What's our plan? Are you just going to just check/call all the way down. Are we praying a club comes on the turn so we can realise some equity or what exactly is our play?

After we get raised i'd actually much rather us pull the trigger again and 3-bet the flop. Something like 5500(maybe slightly bigger) should almost put the decision on the villain for the rest of our chips. If we get called I'm probably shutting down.

A7 is such a bad hand here to just take a street. If we had AKcc I would be fine with a peel but this garbage we need a club and only a club to realise some equity. We are against a lag, out of position, in an inflated pot for no apparent reason. All I can see other than we were clicking buttons pre and we again doing the same now.

Now we turn some equity and we have absolutely no idea what to do because we made some poor decisions on earlier streets, ergo we have butchered our hand.

Out and out button clicking going on here. Yeah, let's take on the only LAG player at the table out of position in an inflated pot on a passive table because errrrrr standard three-bet spot pre supposedly. Riiiiiiight.

Last edited by peterswellman; 02-11-16 at 23:34.
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Old 02-11-16, 23:30   #15
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Originally Posted by PokerPiper View Post
Prefer flatting this hand in BB. Is hero 3-Betting for Value out of position OR to Induce a fold from worse ? Villain sounds like he's never folding so why put ourselves in this spot OOP ? (this deep)

Makes more sense to call and realise our equity in my opinion. The rest of the hand is simply compounding our mistake/s.

FWIW - I think the 3-betting range you are giving Villain out of the BB is off the charts.
The 3-betting range is absurd, it's fucking 50/100 in a live 200 and our range from him 3-betting goes down to 109s? Is this real life?
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Old 03-11-16, 09:38   #16
Gholimoli
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Would disagree with heaps of this also, if the guy is a good competent LAG I see no reason why he wouldn't play sets this way.
you said a good competent LAG will raise sets here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterswellman View Post
You do realise that at this point of the tournament the chances are the villain as literally zero clue what our 3-betting range is. How in gods name is he going to know we 3-bet QJs but no QJ off at 50/100 in a live 200?

You're making so many ridiculous assumptions in this post it's frankly hilarious.

Villain has literally no idea we aren't nutted. It's fucking 50/100 of a live 200 deep stack not some SHR where we have played heaps of hands together and a bunch of history,

A lag should live up to reputation. So many good players would see the value in a raise here, just because you don't or play a different style doesn't make it wrong.
so which is it?
is villain a competent LAG or does he not have clue?

you said you expect a good competent LAG to raise sets there,then when i give reasons why a good player should not raise there ,you say villain don't have a clue?

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Originally Posted by peterswellman View Post
The 3-betting range is absurd, it's fucking 50/100 in a live 200 and our range from him 3-betting goes down to 109s? Is this real life?
why is this 3betting range absurd ?
why is it bad to 3bet T9s half the time there, versus a serial opener ?

what is a not so "absurd" 3betting range for hero here?

you are not backing up anything you say, or suggest, by anything other than words like "absured" , "butchered" ," clicking buttons " with out saying why or give any logical reason for it !!!



you say so many good players will see the value of raising there...well why dont you go ahead and tel me about the value ?

i don't see the value cuz there is inst much at all !!!

versus his sets and strong hands the hand will play the same way (more or less ) any how but versus his bluffs it dont...raising just makes him fold all that part!

so where the fuck is the value in that?

no offence man,but it really don't look like you know much about what ur talking about but like Donald Trump,i think you have words...you have the best words .
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Old 03-11-16, 09:53   #17
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you said a good competent LAG will raise sets here.
By playing sets as a raise I meant.

Quote:
so which is it?
is villain a competent LAG or does he not have clue?
Being competent has nothing to do with recognising our supposedly mental three-betting range entirely at 50/100.

Quote:
you said you expect a good competent LAG to raise sets there,then when i give reasons why a good player should not raise there ,you say villain don't have a clue?
Err, what? I said villian hasn't a clue of our 3-betting range because it's at most second level. How many opportunities would we have to three bet the big blind from a C/O open at this point in a tournament.

Quote:
why is this 3betting range absurd ?
why is it bad to 3bet T9s half the time there, versus a serial opener ?
This example shows how out of touch you are with modern poker. People have recognised that flatting such hands these days is much more profitable. Have you watched any training videos or watch any decent players play in like the last two years?

Quote:
what is a not so "absurd" 3betting range for hero here?

you are not backing up anything you say, or suggest, by anything other than words like "absured" , "butchered" ," clicking buttons " with out saying why or give any logical reason for it !!!
I didn't see the 3-bet is absurd. i said the ridiculous range you have constructed is absurd. Massive difference, you seem to be struggling with reading.

Quote:
you say so many good players will see the value of raising there...well why dont you go ahead and tel me about the value ?
Raising a set against a percieved strong range on a dry board. There is no value in that at all whatsoever. Christ.

Quote:
i don't see the value cuz there is inst much at all !!!
Out of touch by this line of thinking clearly.

Quote:
versus his sets and strong hands the hand will play the same way (more or less ) any how but versus his bluffs it dont...raising just makes him fold all that part!

so where the fuck is the value in that?
LOL

Quote:
no offence man,but it really don't look like you know much about what ur talking about but like Donald Trump,i think you have words...you have the best words .
Such irony. I think it's about time you played some tournaments because you seem way out of touch with recent poker trends. Keep inflating pots needlessly out of position and constructing ranges that clearly are pulling hands out of thin air.

As for the Donald Trump analogy, at least your topical and up to date with something because it clearly isn't tournament poker.
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Old 03-11-16, 10:55   #18
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This is fun

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Old 03-11-16, 11:42   #19
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Why don't you both play HU for Rolls?
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Old 03-11-16, 11:54   #20
Gholimoli
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i ask specific questions and every time you just talk rubbish ...

you say the range im giving hero for 3betting is absurd ,yet you have not said why nor have given an alternative range !!!

i ask why its bad to have half of T9s in ur 3beting range and gain you say nothing !

you say being competent has nothing to do with recognizing a 3betting range !!!
really?
wtf does being competent mean then?

you also seem to think that when a line is standard is the same thing as saying a line is mandatory ...it aint !

its standard to 3bet A7s there and its also standard to call with it depending on other factors ...one factor being how likely it is to be 4betted ?

the more likely you are to get 4 betted , then the less you should lean toward 3betitng with A7s ,and the less likely you are to get 4bet on, then the more you should lean towards 3betiing .

the wider his opening range then obv the less likely he is to 4bet ...and a serial raiser on CO has a very wide opening range .

i haven't watched much training videos in the past couple of years no but i bet i understand them a hell of a lot better than you,as its clear your fundamentals are just fucking awful !!!

i think alot of this is over your head to be honest and for that reason im out .


edit to say:
you also say you prefer 4betting the flop instead of calling, once our lead gets raised ...you say this while saying that you expect his raising range to include all the sets ,and this is the most retarted thing you have said yet !

so you advocating raising in a spot where you never get a better hand to fold and never get a worse hand to call and only get called by a better hand ?

fucking genius !!!

he is never raising the flop with A9+ ,never raising the flop with 22,33,55,66,77,88,TT,JJ ,AK,AJ ...so his flop raising range is either sets(according to you btw) or nothing which makes his range bluff heavy ...bluffs that you are ahead of anyway !

Last edited by Gholimoli; 03-11-16 at 12:26.
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