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Old 09-06-15, 14:45   #1
CountingCrows
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Live 1/2 TPTK

1/2 Live
Hero €600
Villain 1 €400 (regular, hasn't appeared to get out of line but capable player)
Villain 2 €200 (passive fish)

There is a €5 straddle and villain 1 & 2 in mid position call. I make in €20 in the CO with AsJs, both villains call.

Flop Jc6c2h

Checked to me, I bet €40. Both villains call.

Turn 2d. Villain 1 leads for €100, villain 2 flats.

Hero? I ask Villain 1 what’s he left behind. Replies approx €200, no reads.
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Old 09-06-15, 14:54   #2
Denny Crane
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Shove?
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Old 09-06-15, 16:31   #3
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Call. Not much point in raising, the guy most likely to have a draw is effectively all in. That two isn't a blank given it's suit.
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Old 09-06-15, 17:52   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
Call. Not much point in raising, the guy most likely to have a draw is effectively all in. That two isn't a blank given it's suit.
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Old 09-06-15, 18:55   #5
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Theres a big difference between this run out:

Jc6h2c 2d

And this:

Jc6c2h 2d
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Old 09-06-15, 19:47   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
Theres a big difference between this run out:

Jc6h2c 2d

And this:

Jc6c2h 2d
You've lost me HJ. Why isn't a blank 2, a blank? If i'm sitting with AJ, and that turn comes off, i'm in love with my hand more now than i was on the flop?

Edit - I know it's not a total blank as in it doesn't appear to improve my opponents hand, but could improve hero's hand. I don't get the suit reference though.

Last edited by Flushdraw; 09-06-15 at 19:50.
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Old 09-06-15, 19:56   #7
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Originally Posted by Flushdraw View Post
You've lost me HJ. Why isn't a blank 2, a blank? If i'm sitting with AJ, and that turn comes off, i'm in love with my hand more now than i was on the flop?

Edit - I know it's not a total blank as in it doesn't appear to improve my opponents hand, but could improve hero's hand. I don't get the suit reference though.
Guy on the flop can have Xc2c in the 2nd example but can't have that combo in the 1st. His range and the range of hands that beat you are different when the flop 2 is a club that then pairs compared to when the flop isn't a club.

So more twos call when they have a club draw to back them up than you would see calling without - increasingly the frequency of a 2 appearing in the villains range
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Old 09-06-15, 20:19   #8
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I probably fold I think
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Old 09-06-15, 22:09   #9
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I fold.

In some cash games this is a fist pump shove, but in a lot of games it's easy fold as you're never ahead. Based on your description of the players, I think it's a fold.
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Old 10-06-15, 00:12   #10
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In addition to what Kayroo said, the fact that the villain led the two makes it somewhat likely he has one. He can lead here because 99.9% of players won't understand that is isn't a blank. If I had A2c id lead here every time against unknowns.

That said we don't have enough information to just fold. We beat so much of both of the villains range I'd rather shove than fold. Call and play poker on the river is by far the best option.
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Old 10-06-15, 09:32   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
In addition to what Kayroo said, the fact that the villain led the two makes it somewhat likely he has one. He can lead here because 99.9% of players won't understand that is isn't a blank. If I had A2c id lead here every time against unknowns.

That said we don't have enough information to just fold. We beat so much of both of the villains range I'd rather shove than fold. Call and play poker on the river is by far the best option.
What would you do if the river blanks, an actual blank this time, and the villain shoves? I reckon it plays out this way an awful lot .
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Old 10-06-15, 09:46   #12
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You have to call the turn here and see what he does on the river.

You are most likely ahead.

You raised pre flop and made a c-bet.

If he is a good player, he could be trying to take it away from you on the turn as you don't neccesarily have to have a hand. But you do, so you have to call.
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Old 12-06-15, 15:43   #13
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For those advocating a call, should we be planning on calling a shove on all blank rivers? Not much commentary on V2's flat call, pretty irrelevant given his stack size?
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Old 15-06-15, 12:09   #14
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Player specific info: Probability that he has randomly slow-played AA or something crazy like that?
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Old 16-06-15, 11:29   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyFatBastard View Post
Player specific info: Probability that he has randomly slow-played AA or something crazy like that?
Almost zero with the line taken.
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Old 20-10-15, 15:33   #16
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Sorry only looking through this today but how did it playout ? , btw i call and atleast force hime to fire again on the river and then make my mind up :-)
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Old 23-10-15, 11:36   #17
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I had planned on calling V1 but when V2 flatted I folded figuring I must be behind in one spot. River was a blank, V1 shoved, V2 folded.

V1 had K10o and V2 had club draw. V1 said he thought I was weak and just making a move in position. Said he was shoving any river even if I called turn.

Still not sure what the takeaway lesson is.. sometimes seemingly competent players do crazy shit??
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Old 29-12-15, 09:16   #18
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Does V1 not check/r the flop enough to make this a call? He can get you to fold better; deny equity to a huge range of hands. I think it's a really weird line, but I hadn't consider the fact that the turn isn't a blank, it's a little over my head.
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Old 29-12-15, 16:00   #19
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I shove.

I can only assume that most of the people advocating lines other than shove are concerned about 2x. Lets give him A2o,K2s,Q2s,23s on the flop. That's like 17 combos or something.

IMO "Capable players" should be calling the flop cbet with a one-pair 2x exactly 0% of the time but to make it interesting lets say the villain shoves pair and flush draws (most Fitz regs know this line by now I think), folds 50% of the other combos (he's facing a cbet into 2 players with a shortstack behind who can reopen the action - he should be folding more than that but whatever). By the time the second 2 hits the turn we're talking about a vanishingly small number of trips combos in his range.

On the other hand he can have loads of random Jxo combos (probably like 50 pretty easily) we beat and what the hell are we going to do on various rivers anyway facing a 200 shove into like 500. Ship and feel good.

Then again my image is different than most peoples.
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Old 29-12-15, 16:01   #20
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Just read results. My quotes around "capable players" were right on the money.
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