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Old 01-06-15, 17:48   #1
DiazN
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Tank call or snap fold

20 player tourney with 7 left, 4 getting paid. All stacks starting to get shallow, in the region of 12-22 BBs. Blinds 8K-16K. I have approx 200K-220k

I open in early position for 35k with As Ks, shorter stack raises all in for 102k, chip leader then ships over the top and its back around to me. I play regularly with the two players in question and know them to play a wide range at any point of the tourney.

Only posting this hand as i got quite a bit of stick from a few players after my eventual decision in the hand. Thoughts/comments?
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Old 01-06-15, 18:11   #2
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Originally Posted by DiazN View Post
20 player tourney with 7 left, 4 getting paid. All stacks starting to get shallow, in the region of 12-22 BBs. Blinds 8K-16K. I have approx 200K-220k

I open in early position for 35k with As Ks, shorter stack raises all in for 102k, chip leader then ships over the top and its back around to me. I play regularly with the two players in question and know them to play a wide range at any point of the tourney.

Only posting this hand as i got quite a bit of stick from a few players after my eventual decision in the hand. Thoughts/comments?
I don't tank call or snap fold.

I snap call!

You know both players are playing a wide range, what hand are you waiting for in an all in or fold tourney situation? Get them in.
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Old 01-06-15, 18:20   #3
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Ya, snap call here as described.
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Old 01-06-15, 19:12   #4
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Naturally. Called to see the shortstack with As 9s and the chip leader was trying to isolate with Ah Kh. Another player flys off at me then saying its a shocking call with 2 or 3 others agreeing with him. Not sure if he was serious or trying to tilt me. Just interested to see what others thought.
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Old 01-06-15, 19:13   #5
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Naturally. Called to see the shortstack with As 9s and the chip leader was trying to isolate with Ah Kh. Another player flys off at me then saying its a shocking call with 2 or 3 others agreeing with him. Not sure if he was serious or trying to tilt me. Just interested to see what others thought.
Where do these lads play?
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Old 01-06-15, 19:18   #6
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Wont name and shame only to say one would only be a pub player and the others would play the likes of the bigger €120-€150 games like boyles series, celtic poker etc.
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Old 01-06-15, 19:42   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiazN View Post
Naturally. Called to see the shortstack with As 9s and the chip leader was trying to isolate with Ah Kh. Another player flys off at me then saying its a shocking call with 2 or 3 others agreeing with him. Not sure if he was serious or trying to tilt me. Just interested to see what others thought.
lol live players, I wouldn't take any heed of poker advice from ~90% of reg casino players.
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Old 01-06-15, 22:24   #8
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Another player flys off at me then saying its a shocking call with 2 or 3 others agreeing with him.
Presumably they provided you with there -EV maths based on perceived ranges?
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Old 01-06-15, 22:52   #9
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I'd be more concerned at two As being in the deck
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Old 02-06-15, 20:36   #10
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Simply put, you can't fold here. You have 13 BB and you're opening for about 16% of that stack. Short stack has 6 big blinds so you can include a dirty napkin and a Telecom Eireann call card in his range.

The pot is 301k (16k + 8k + 102k + 175k effective) and you have to call 175k. You need 36% to call. Also, ICM would arguably reduce the equity you need since if you call and win, you've a big stack and will win more money the times you do ladder up. In this exact hand, you had 38% equity, and unless they show up with AA or KK occasionally, that's worst case scenario.

The only time folding would ever even cross my mind is if you were on the exact bubble and the min cash was important to you. There's an argument for folding because a 6BB range is likely to be second best to the big stacks isolation range. In this case, you need to be aware of the stacks around you; know there are shorties likely to rip it and big stacks likely to try to isolate; no shame in open-folding AK if you do it for this reason. However, raising to 1/5 of your stack with the intent of folding is just bad.

I don't know what level of tournament this was, but I think tanking and then calling and turning over what is clearly a monster is -EV for your table image. I'm snap calling here and turning over AK without a second's hesitation so these bitches know I know the math and I'm not afraid to rumble.

As for the needling from the other players, be thankful you're playing with people who would consider folding AK.

In sum, snap call.

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I'd be more concerned at two As being in the deck
Haha, well spotted!
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Old 02-06-15, 23:59   #11
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I'd be more concerned at two As being in the deck
Im a bit worried about this myself

My bad, I had Ac Kc.
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Old 03-06-15, 00:51   #12
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The pot is 301k (16k + 8k + 102k + 175k effective) and you have to call 175k. You need 36% to call. Also, ICM would arguably reduce the equity you need since if you call and win, you've a big stack and will win more money the times you do ladder up. In this exact hand, you had 38% equity, and unless they show up with AA or KK occasionally, that's worst case scenario.
I really don't think we need to prove the call here. Certainly don't need to do this in real time. (Fwiw, the pot is 336k the 35k call from the big stack)
But, that said ICM increases the equity we need, not decreases it. As busting in 6th place pays nothing, but increasing our by close to triple doesn’t increase our equity by the same.

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I don't know what level of tournament this was, but I think tanking and then calling and turning over what is clearly a monster is -EV for your table image. I'm snap calling here and turning over AK without a second's hesitation so these bitches know I know the math and I'm not afraid to rumble.
I really don’t the players slating him for calling here are considering his tank time or math knowledge in regards to his range.
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Old 30-07-15, 00:54   #13
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Anyone just shoving pf here? That's what id do with only 13BB left
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Old 30-07-15, 01:40   #14
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Anyone just shoving pf here? That's what id do with only 13BB left
Not in an EP. We pick up only the blinds when we are ahead and likely only get the rest in on a flip
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Old 30-07-15, 15:56   #15
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Not in an EP. We pick up only the blinds when we are ahead and likely only get the rest in on a flip
its fine to shove, given its 7 handed, there is really only UTG,MP,HJ,CO,BTN,SB,BB so we're not technically in EP unless he is UTG, also its fine to shove even if it was a full table, especially if its a standard live flatty type of table and also if he doesnt ever raise fold this stack its so much better to just shove instead of looking nutted and only get 3b jammed on by the top of people ranges.
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Old 30-07-15, 17:53   #16
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Yeah, I agree. It would be different if you were shoving over twenty blinds. AJ etc will snap get it in
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Old 30-07-15, 17:59   #17
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Yeah, I agree. It would be different if you were shoving over twenty blinds. AJ etc will snap get it in
yeah, their calling range v their 3b shoving range wont change too much at this stack depth( it will change but not by a massive % unless they are really bad, and obv they can and will 3b shoveslightly wider than what they are calling) and this actually should just be a shove pre anyways given avg stack size and blind levels(im presuming there is antes also ? )
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Old 31-07-15, 01:45   #18
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its fine to shove, given its 7 handed, there is really only UTG,MP,HJ,CO,BTN,SB,BB so we're not technically in EP unless he is UTG,
I had assume it was UTG.
But teah, i'm probably far too tight
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Old 31-07-15, 21:19   #19
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snap call as said by most above
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