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$1/2 RUSH, 250bb deep against Digiman, how you play the turn?

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    $1/2 RUSH, 250bb deep against Digiman, how you play the turn?

    I am the villan in this hand and I know the results. I am posting the hand from the villans point of view who is Full Tilt Pro Martin Klaeser. We play against each other a lot on the 1/2 Rush tables and I am wondering what people think of his play and most importanly what he should do on the turn.

    Rush $1/2
    Martin Klaeser SB $500
    BB $200
    UTG $210
    MP $200
    CO $200
    Digiman $500

    The CO opens to $6, Digiman 3bets to $18, Martin Klaeser 4bets to $48 with 9cTc and Digiman calls.

    Pot ($104)
    Flop comes 7c9s3h, Martin Klaeser checks, Digiman bets $55, Martin Klaeser calls

    (Pot $214)
    Turn is 6c, Martin Klaeser checks, Digiman bets $145, action on Martin???


    My reads on Martin would be relevant, we have played quite a lot and would have an aggro dynamic with 3b and 4b preflop. He is very aggro overall, plays 22/19/3.2 with a 3b of 11% and 4b of 14% over 1100 hands. Both of us have no problem getting it in light or calling it off light but this would generally be 100bb deep.

    Reads on me, I play similar preflop but less 3b but more 4b. My range to call his 3b would be whatever I am 3b the CO with, there would be no hand that I would fold to his 4b here given stack sizes.


    What do people think his best move is on the turn? I think its a pretty interesting spot and I am not sure what the best play is and would like to hear arguments for either.

    #2
    I have a pair. I have a top pair. I have a flush draw and straight draw.

    I have many monies. Ship ship mcgipp

    Comment


      #3
      Think I prefer a call. Seems clearly enough the best no?

      I'd bet less on the turn in your shoes though.
      Foldaramus et foldarabimus

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
        Think I prefer a call. Seems clearly enough the best no?

        I'd bet less on the turn in your shoes though.
        I guess the thing is, and I am not sure about this part which is why I am posting. Also a bit of maths would probably figure it out but not really a strong part of my game.

        The way I think about hands is, will worse call/can I fold better?
        In this spot if we crai on turn, better calling is not what we want but Tc9c has a lot of outs so we will always have decent equity. Now the thing there are a few hands in my (digimans) range that are air and that I will jam the river with, stuff like 86, J8s, JT, KQ etc etc if I miss. I would probably check back if a Q hit, not sure really. Now all those hands have outs versus 9cTc and it would be no harm folding them giving that they will put Martin allin on river and I dont think he can call with what he has should he hits.

        Not sure how clear that is but any thoughts Conor?

        Comment


          #5
          Well, if you just use pot odds, he needs 29% now and has 37%. Obv there are times when you have the better FD, and also times when you have sets or whatever, but there is also money to go in on the river, and I think there is no way that calling is -EV. I don't think he even needs to call river with this hand if you ship river on him.

          You can wave your hand at it and put a number on his EV, and I might tomorrow night, but still the question is if shoving can yield higher EV. I just don't think it can/does. He needs you to fold hands that have pretty good equity, and given the nature of the board, his equity, and your and his line, I just don't think you do that much. Like him getting you to fold bluffs isn't that good a result for him. Its not like you continue your bluffs on this river all the time or anything. There are defo bluffs you give up on at least some of the time that he can scoop, along with the times where he spikes and wins another bet.

          If I was him, I'd prefer to shove weaker hands along with stronger hands, but I think this is a hand that fits into your calling range way better.

          I'll have a look at numbers tomorrow night if noone else has!
          Foldaramus et foldarabimus

          Comment


            #6
            Ship time, I do hate the 4-bet given its rush.
            http://carlmorrissey.blogspot.com/
            http://twitter.com/#!/Moro88

            Comment


              #7
              I think because of the aggressive history between you guys that you are not folding an overpair so his only move is call.

              Comment


                #8
                it's a clear call on the turn.. i love the guy but hate how he played this hand

                (sorry i'm not a math man)

                Comment


                  #9
                  easy call on the turn.
                  you mention how you're folding none of your 3b range to a cold 4b given stacks. that sounds terrible. you either spew way too much or you don't 3b enough in position

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I think I would be betting the flop if I were him. 4betting then deciding to bluff catch seems really meh.
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                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by ikilldurrr1 View Post
                      I think because of the aggressive history between you guys that you are not folding an overpair so his only move is call.
                      I agree with this.
                      "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Carl_Morrissey View Post
                        Ship time, I do hate the 4-bet given its rush.
                        I don't see how rush affects it tbh

                        Originally posted by cardshark202 View Post
                        easy call on the turn.
                        you mention how you're folding none of your 3b range to a cold 4b given stacks. that sounds terrible. you either spew way too much or you don't 3b enough in position
                        Maybe I don't 3b enough in position, I am generally more passive when playing rush, people are squeezing a lot in rush and you get cold 4b quite a lot so I would 3b less and back raise a little bit more.

                        Martin does 4b quite a lot and I would be happy enough calling him here with most hands that I 3b the CO with when we are this deep. Really don't see a problem with it at all.

                        Originally posted by ianmc38 View Post
                        I think I would be betting the flop if I were him. 4betting then deciding to bluff catch seems really meh.
                        I think the flop check is ok, if he bets and I raise him, then its a total disaster for him as hes going to have to fold the best hand some of the time and its more of a pot control line as well. He doesn't exactly have a hand that he can be happy with me calling him IP. I think its better to c/c and evaluate the turn

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I call the turn simply because your range is very strong - i.e. your not folding I dont think given the action. and sticking money 400BB's in on a flip(at best) isn't cool. On the other hand I think you pay me off a lot if I bink the river.

                          Therefore keep it cheap when I miss and win lots of monies when I hit

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by digiman View Post
                            I don't see how rush affects it tbh

                            I think the flop check is ok, if he bets and I raise him, then its a total disaster for him as hes going to have to fold the best hand some of the time and its more of a pot control line as well. He doesn't exactly have a hand that he can be happy with me calling him IP. I think its better to c/c and evaluate the turn
                            Whats your flop raising range in a spot like this? It seems like a very, very strange spot for you to raise the flop on such a dry uncoordinated board. I also think because it's Rush and you are reasonably deep that he can expect you to 5bet all your monsters preflop. When I'm him and i'm betting here i'm going to be bombing all 3 most of the time. I'm not betting and saying to myself oh no he called, i better check fold the turn. I'm saying fcuk it, i can have the boots, his range is really weak and he should fold almost all of his range to a turn barrel.
                            Looking for full or part time poker and betting writers. PM if interested.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by ianmc38 View Post
                              Whats your flop raising range in a spot like this? It seems like a very, very strange spot for you to raise the flop on such a dry uncoordinated board. I also think because it's Rush and you are reasonably deep that he can expect you to 5bet all your monsters preflop. When I'm him and i'm betting here i'm going to be bombing all 3 most of the time. I'm not betting and saying to myself oh no he called, i better check fold the turn. I'm saying fcuk it, i can have the boots, his range is really weak and he should fold almost all of his range to a turn barrel.
                              To be honest I don't really know what I raise this flop with, total air ball maybe that I will raise small once with and give up on. Don't find myself in this spot to often. You are probably right in the fact that I call a lot more than I raise on this flop if he bets. On the other hand I might raise small with AA/KK here hoping to induce something as well.

                              I think his hand is best a lot of the time here against my range and by bombing all 3 streets hes only going to get me to fold 9x, TT-JJ. I would find it very tough to fold QQ+ to him here given that hes really aggro and likes to sqz a wide range of hands. But TT-AA makes up a pretty small part of my range here and he only gets me to fold half of that anyway. Its going to consist of lots of AK, AQ, suited broadways, medium connected hands etc. Would it not be better for him to check/call the flop and let me bet whats going to be the suited broadway hands that lose to AK and AQ and the other hands like J8s, T8s etc that he is ahead of anyway.

                              His hand is much stronger than my range at the minute and hes mostly only getting called by better hands that won't fold anyway unless the board runs out really crap.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Good thread. Lots to think about.
                                "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  What would you do if you had AK or AA in his spot?
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                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Check and bet usually

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      If its against a guy who never folds to a 4b with these stacks I would say AK is a bet here

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by digiman View Post
                                        Check and bet usually
                                        How about TT-KK?
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                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by ianmc38 View Post
                                          How about TT-KK?
                                          Just re-read your first question about AK and AA again, I didn't realise you were asking we what I would do if I was him.

                                          Overall though I don't like 3b or 4b OOP when I'm this deep, I rather take flops with higher pot/stack ratio. In this case my 4b range would be sometimes QQ and KK+ and some random suited stuff that has blockers etc.

                                          AK I would bet if it has the backdoor flushdraw, otherwise I check/call and evaluate turn.
                                          KK+ I bet for sure.
                                          TT-JJ I wouldn't be 4b here. QQ some of the time I will 4b oop this deep, depends on the villan and how happy I am for him to 5b me.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            You would check call AK? That seems spewy without some sick read.

                                            So your flop betting range is KK+ and some air, but any hand with some showdown value you are check calling? Is that about right?

                                            Also FWIW I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing just trying to get some discussion going.
                                            Looking for full or part time poker and betting writers. PM if interested.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              It's kinda confusing really, as I am wondering are you asking me what I would do if I was in Klaeser shoes knowing that I am playing against myself or are you asking me what I would do against a typical villan who calls my 4b there?

                                              Yeh, I would rather check call the villan in this spot with my SD type hands that have backdoor equity, exactly like the 9cTc hand he has here, there are a number of great turn cards for him that improve his equity.

                                              Other thing is I don't get into this spot all that often, Klaeser has left himself in a really crap spot with the hand he has. He is oop with a hand that he doesn't know is he bluff/catching, betting to protect, bluffing with his hand. I think hes in a really shit spot against someone who is a reasonable winner in the actual game is he playing.

                                              But wp on asking the questions, there are not enough hands posted up that are actual deep hands and thats were all the really good discussion happens on. Most other 100bb hands are just basically solved and need 1 word answers really. I also remember a hand sauce1234 played against urnotindanger I think it was which was kinda similar but they were much deeper again I think. Will have a look on ptr to see can I find it

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