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    He said "call"

    Is their any fair obvious ruling for the following?

    Tournament, blinds 100/200.
    Hero raises from early position to 500 with AA.
    Villian in mp reraises to 1500.
    Folded back to hero who goes all-in for 10,500 in total.
    Villian thinks for 3-4 minutes and eventually turns qq face up.
    (Tournie director happens to be standing behind villain)

    Dealer (and everyone else at table) presmes he is folding, mucks the qq and pushes pot to hero. Hero turns up one Ace and his cards are mucked.
    Bolded part happens really fast, less than 5 secs I’d guess.
    At this stage tournie director and villain both say, “what’s happening, he said call?"

    Hero at this stage has stacked the chips and all cards are shuffled.

    What do we do?

    #2
    No idea?

    Give villain back his 1,500 chips & half the blinds?

    Dont see how you can run the hand & it's partly a dealer mistake so you shouldnt be punished.

    Did anyone apart from TD hear him say anything at all?


    In the European Deepstack this year a couple off the bubble a Frenchie in LP raised 30% of his stack with JJ & I shipped with AdJd. He tanked & showed face up saying fold. Dealer (Asian) thought he said call, turned my cards over & goes to put out a flop. EVERYONE at the table says hold on, he said fold. TD is called & dealer says she thought he said call. Frenchie, now with my cards visable, naturally says he said call! Rivered a flush on the cnut to send him packing.

    Conclusion - doesnt matter what the table thinks, comes down to dealers interpretation & TD>dealer.
    Last edited by Dice75; 30-11-11, 10:47.

    Comment


      #3
      Deal the next hand
      Hunter S Thompson 1937-2005 - "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro"

      Comment


        #4
        This is a tricky one.
        Are you sure your cards can't be identified?

        Whatever happens it sounds like the dealers mistake and you shouldn't be punished. Having said that nowadays whenever the action is anything less than 100% clear I'm always trying to hold on to my cards until I have the chips and opponents cards are mucked.
        Turning millions into thousands

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
          No idea?

          Did anyone apart from TD hear him say anything at all?


          .
          Nobody heard anything apart from TD.

          Just to be clear, absolutely no angle-shooting from anyone involved.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
            This is a tricky one.
            Are you sure your cards can't be identified?

            .
            All cards are now mucked and shuffled.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by dinjo99 View Post
              Nobody heard anything apart from TD.

              Just to be clear, absolutely no angle-shooting from anyone involved.
              *loses interest*

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                *loses interest*

                Comment


                  #9
                  This a difficult situation for everyone invovled but i think once the chips are awarded to the player and the cards have been taken in and shuffled then play must continue

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Players responsibility to protect their cards I assumed?
                    Hunter S Thompson 1937-2005 - "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro"

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I'd give the QQ player back their 1,500 and do no more. Splitting blinds gets too messy plus I don't think you can penalise the person with AA any further than taking the 1,500 off them because they too did nothing wrong.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Maddogg View Post
                        This a difficult situation for everyone invovled but i think once the chips are awarded to the player and the cards have been taken in and shuffled then play must continue
                        I think so too, if the TD didn't recognize that the cards were being mucked and step in then it's too late.

                        Obviously the dealer heard fold and I'm not a fan of dealers asking players to repeat what they said if they believe they heard it the first time.

                        If the dealer didn't hear properly or anything at all then he should ask the player what his intention is, if the player doesn't answer then immediatly then call for a ruling.

                        The fact that he tanked for a few minutes should mean the dealer was paying attention as it's obviously a big moment for both players.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          This is pretty difficult but I think that the correct ruling is that the entire pot is awarded to the villain (ie a full Dbl up for him). This went to showdown and you effectively mucked your hand whereas the villain didnt.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                            This is pretty difficult but I think that the correct ruling is that the entire pot is awarded to the villain (ie a full Dbl up for him). This went to showdown and you effectively mucked your hand whereas the villain didnt.
                            Villians hand was mucked by dealer first from my reading of OP

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                              This is pretty difficult but I think that the correct ruling is that the entire pot is awarded to the villain (ie a full Dbl up for him). This went to showdown and you effectively mucked your hand whereas the villain didnt.
                              LOL, so how long should he hold onto his cards for? After all other hands are mucked and he is awarded the pot he still has his cards.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by NewApproach View Post
                                Villians hand was mucked by dealer first from my reading of OP
                                If villain said call to all all in shove and flips his hand then it cant be mucked.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                                  LOL, so how long should he hold onto his cards for? After all other hands are mucked and he is awarded the pot he still has his cards.
                                  Same reply as to New Approach, unless im mistaken its at showdown and the villain has turned his hand over, hero has mucked (by the book) so as TD is there and heard "Call" the villains hand must be live - it simply cannot be mucked.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                    No idea?

                                    Give villain back his 1,500 chips & half the blinds?

                                    Dont see how you can run the hand & it's partly a dealer mistake so you shouldnt be punished.
                                    Why would villain get any chips back?
                                    He called off 10.5k when he was pretty far behind. Losing only his 1500 and any claim at the pot is a good result for him. That's only way I cant think to proceed.

                                    If the deck was wasn't mucked yet flop turn river could be dealt and it resolves who was to win. But sounds like its shuffled.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Did the dealer and the rest of the table hear fold or hear nothing?

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                        Same reply as to New Approach, unless im mistaken its at showdown and the villain has turned his hand over, hero has mucked (by the book) so as TD is there and heard "Call" the villains hand must be live - it simply cannot be mucked.
                                        Once the pot is awarded and villians cards are in the muck I think it's safe for hero to give the cards to the dealer.
                                        It's lol to think that a showdown rule can apply here and for hero to give his stack away now.

                                        The biggest angleshoots of all time would start if this was the practice.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                          Why would villain get any chips back?
                                          He called off 10.5k when he was pretty far behind. Losing only his 1500 and any claim at the pot is a good result for him. That's only way I cant think to proceed.

                                          If the deck was wasn't mucked yet flop turn river could be dealt and it resolves who was to win. But sounds like its shuffled.
                                          Nobody besides OP knows that the QQ was behind and besides thats irrelevant.

                                          As its the TD that rules that villain had said call, the minimum the villain is going to get back is his 1500 chips imo, but probably that is all he will get.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by RichieM View Post
                                            Did the dealer and the rest of the table hear fold or hear nothing?
                                            Heard nothing. Everyone bar villian and TD presumed he had folded.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by curleywurley
                                              How did the TD not stop the dealer? Did this really happen?

                                              If the cards were not riffle shuffled (which means it's too late to object on the last hand) then in theory, the dude would have to put in all his 10.5K chips and start praying for a Q.

                                              5 seconds is a VERY LONG TIME in a poker hand.
                                              It did really happen. TD knew afterwards he should have intervened but didn't realise the qq was being mucked until too late.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Was at the table for this sitting in seat 1 op was in seat 6 I think villain Seat 8, villain flipped over his QQ no one at table heard him say call including Seat 7 and dealer.dinjo was already putting chips into his stack when villain says I said call. The only question I had was how can u muck his QQ when it has been declared even if everyone thought he was folding.As dinjo said there was never a question of anyone angleshooting, it was just a really interesting spot for a ruling and I am sure alot of TDs would have different decisions.
                                                location green and yellow stretford end

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by dinjo99 View Post
                                                  It did really happen. TD knew afterwards he should have intervened but didn't realise the qq was being mucked until too late.
                                                  Ignore my post (I've deleted it), I mis-understood the OP. Apologies.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Exactly why did Hero and dealer think villain had folded? He can turn his hand face up at this stage and still have a live hand.

                                                    Did hero turn over 1 ace and then throw both cards towards the middle of the table where dealer mucked them without villain saying anything?

                                                    Award the pot to villain imo as it sounds like nobody seen that Hero had AA and he threw his cards into the middle.

                                                    Lesson learned.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by kaiser soze View Post
                                                      Was at the table for this sitting in seat 1 op was in seat 6 I think villain Seat 8, villain flipped over his QQ no one at table heard him say call including Seat 7 and dealer.dinjo was already putting chips into his stack when villain says I said call. The only question I had was how can u muck his QQ when it has been declared even if everyone thought he was folding.As dinjo said there was never a question of anyone angleshooting, it was just a really interesting spot for a ruling and I am sure alot of TDs would have different decisions.
                                                      Once the cards were shuffled, the hand is over and no-one has the right to change the result of the previous hand.

                                                      Interesting if the cards had not been shuffled.

                                                      I'd say that AA hand is dead if his cards cannot be 100% identified in the muck (like if they were put on top or not pushed into the muck fully). If they can be identified, then the flop, turn and river should be dealt as normal.

                                                      And I'm guessing that if AA's hand cannot be identified, then all his chips go into the pot and he loses them as he did not protect his hand???

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Hmm, Arazi has a point. Mellors not making any sense, what have the cards he held got to do with anything. Its only about what's right and wrong within the rules and spirit or intention of the rules.

                                                        If I was the guy with QQ I'm going to be thinking I made a call and my opponent mucked, therefore those should be my chips.
                                                        How about shuffling them taking out the three cards that were turned up and dealing a board.
                                                        Obv not very fair on op who who would have to play one hole card against QQ


                                                        If you are looking for fair I guess the nearest is chop it up, its not fair but its equally unfair on everyone involved.

                                                        Was this in Fitz EOM?

                                                        It was a very action packed 5 seconds
                                                        Call made but only heard by a guy behind caller
                                                        QQ tabled
                                                        Single A turned and shown
                                                        Hand Mucked
                                                        Cards washed
                                                        Chips stacked
                                                        Stewards Enquiry called.
                                                        Turning millions into thousands

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
                                                          Its only about what's right and wrong within the rules and spirit or intention of the rules.

                                                          If I was the guy with QQ I'm going to be thinking I made a call and my opponent mucked, therefore those should be my chips.
                                                          How about shuffling them taking out the three cards that were turned up and dealing a board.
                                                          Obv not very fair on op who who would have to play one hole card against QQ


                                                          If you are looking for fair I guess the nearest is chop it up, its not fair but its equally unfair on everyone involved.
                                                          Not a fan of this solution.

                                                          I agree about fairness being the best way to sort stuff out, but how far do we go? If as TD you rule a split and QQ says, what are you talking about??? The chips are mine obv! What do you do then?

                                                          It's an interesting situation in terms of how far is a TD allowed to go with the spirit and fairness etc? To me AA makes a schoolboy error here.

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by CheckRaise View Post
                                                            Exactly why did Hero and dealer think villain had folded? He can turn his hand face up at this stage and still have a live hand.

                                                            Did hero turn over 1 ace and then throw both cards towards the middle of the table where dealer mucked them without villain saying anything?

                                                            Award the pot to villain imo as it sounds like nobody seen that Hero had AA and he threw his cards into the middle.

                                                            Lesson learned.
                                                            Hero thought villian had folded because his hand had been mucked and chips had been passed to him. By the time any questions are raised all cards are mucked and not identifiable.
                                                            Last edited by dinjo99; 30-11-11, 12:51.

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by curleywurley View Post
                                                              Once the cards were shuffled, the hand is over and no-one has the right to change the result of the previous hand.

                                                              Interesting if the cards had not been shuffled.

                                                              I'd say that AA hand is dead if his cards cannot be 100% identified in the muck (like if they were put on top or not pushed into the muck fully). If they can be identified, then the flop, turn and river should be dealt as normal.

                                                              And I'm guessing that if AA's hand cannot be identified, then all his chips go into the pot and he loses them as he did not protect his hand???
                                                              Ah come on you couldn't really think that the hero would have went all in and saw 2 queens and thought damn only 1 ace best throw my chips away. even if you had 72 off you would still want to run the hand. Cannot see how this could be even possible thought of as a spot where hero could muck his hand.

                                                              Guy clearly whispered it as I presume everyone was watching to see what was going to happen and would have been listening. He didn't make any motion towards his chips either. I would say it sounds like he didn't really signal his call well enough.

                                                              I would say that the hand was ruled in Hero favour and reshuffled so the most that could be awarded to villain is the 1500 back.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                I definitely think hero's hand is dead here. The villain did nothing wrong, he said call and showed his hand. The hero only showed one card and then mucked his hand. It doesn't matter what the cards are. And also although its frustrating for hero, its not actually relevant to the ruling whether or not it was partly influenced by a dealer mistake.

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by dinjo99 View Post
                                                                  Hero thought villian had folded because his hand had been mucked and chips had been passed to him. By the time any questions are raised all cards are mucked and not identifiable.
                                                                  Hold onto the AA until someone calls clock on you!

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
                                                                    Was this in Fitz EOM?

                                                                    It was a very action packed 5 seconds
                                                                    Call made but only heard by a guy behind caller
                                                                    QQ tabled
                                                                    Single A turned and shown
                                                                    Hand Mucked
                                                                    Cards washed
                                                                    Chips stacked
                                                                    Stewards Enquiry called.
                                                                    Wasn't in Fitz.

                                                                    Strange as it may seem the dealer mucked qq, passed chips to hero, hero showed one Ace and mucked bothh cards all before any questions raised.
                                                                    By the time question is raised deck is spread face down on table with no cards identifiable.

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by curleywurley View Post
                                                                      And I'm guessing that if AA's hand cannot be identified, then all his chips go into the pot and he loses them as he did not protect his hand???
                                                                      How did he fail to protect his hand?
                                                                      As far as he was concerned, he was the last player in the hand. If anyone failed to protect his hand it was QQ
                                                                      Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
                                                                      Hmm, Arazi has a point. Mellors not making any sense, what have the cards he held got to do with anything.
                                                                      I did realise that both Aces weren't tabled.
                                                                      I still think its AAs pot, but theres a case to be made for QQ getting 1500 back.

                                                                      If I was the guy with QQ I'm going to be thinking I made a call and my opponent mucked, therefore those should be my chips.
                                                                      The QQ was mucked (by the dealer) before the AA.

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by Lisa View Post
                                                                        I definitely think hero's hand is dead here. The villain did nothing wrong, he said call and showed his hand. The hero only showed one card and then mucked his hand. It doesn't matter what the cards are. And also although its frustrating for hero, its not actually relevant to the ruling whether or not it was partly influenced by a dealer mistake.
                                                                        He only mucked after the QQ was in the muck, kinda relevant detail that you are leaving out.

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                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by Lisa View Post
                                                                          I definitely think hero's hand is dead here. The villain did nothing wrong, he said call and showed his hand. The hero only showed one card and then mucked his hand. It doesn't matter what the cards are. And also although its frustrating for hero, its not actually relevant to the ruling whether or not it was partly influenced by a dealer mistake.
                                                                          She handed him the chips before he mucked his cards I think that is very important. Generally when I am given the chips in the pot I always believe that I have been awarded the pot and should give my cards back for the next hand.

                                                                          Showing his card is not really part of the issue imo and as a result.

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                                            He only mucked after the QQ was in the muck, kinda relevant detail that you are leaving out.
                                                                            QQ tabled his hand.

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by curleywurley View Post
                                                                              QQ tabled his hand.
                                                                              His hand was then mucked by the dealer and the pot awarded to the AA player. How long should a player be expected to hold onto his cards for after the hand is presumably over?

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by RichieM View Post
                                                                                She handed him the chips before he mucked his cards I think that is very important. Generally when I am given the chips in the pot I always believe that I have been awarded the pot and should give my cards back for the next hand.

                                                                                Showing his card is not really part of the issue imo and as a result.
                                                                                Are all dealers female or do you assume only female dealers are involved in mistakes?

                                                                                Sexist pig

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by NewApproach View Post
                                                                                  His hand was then mucked by the dealer and the pot awarded to the AA player. How long should a player be expected to hold onto his cards for after the hand is presumably over?


                                                                                  What would YOU do?

                                                                                  AA has no hand as he didn't table his cards. QQ has a hand as he did. To me that's the crux of this problem. It would certainly hold at showdown but I don't know if this rule applies here, it's a hard one like. We only have hero's word for the cards he had, which is not enough.

                                                                                  It sounds like there was no riffle so the hand is not over and everything in theory can be brought back to the stage of who has a hand or not, which would mean QQ takes the loot.

                                                                                  However, I think in this situation, it's fair to give AA his last bet back.

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by curleywurley View Post
                                                                                    QQ tabled his hand.
                                                                                    And then failed to protect it, or make his actions clear. I know its a bit harsh, but if he spoke sooner the dealer could of stopped before the deck was washed.
                                                                                    The QQ was in the muck and the chips with the hero before hero mucked.

                                                                                    It's obviously the dealers mistake. But the hero did nothing wrong by mucking when nobody else had cards.

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                                                      I still think its AAs pot, but theres a case to be made for QQ getting 1500 back.
                                                                                      Why would villain get 1500 back and not get a share of the blinds? It doesn't make any sense.

                                                                                      Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                                                      He only mucked after the QQ was in the muck, kinda relevant detail that you are leaving out.
                                                                                      Okay so that means it goes from partly dealer fault to mostly dealer fault. Still same ruling.

                                                                                      Originally posted by RichieM View Post
                                                                                      She handed him the chips before he mucked his cards I think that is very important. Generally when I am given the chips in the pot I always believe that I have been awarded the pot and should give my cards back for the next hand.
                                                                                      Yep totally understandable that he thought that, and a horrible situation to be in.

                                                                                      But think about it this way, if the hero had heard villain say call before he showed his cards, and the dealer had acted in the exact same way, would the hero have mucked his hand as he did? No, logic dictates that he would have protected his hand no matter what. Even though he didn't hear "call" here, nor did he hear fold so he should have protected his hand no matter what.
                                                                                      Last edited by Lisa; 30-11-11, 13:20.

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                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Well looking at it from a purely objective stand point, the Villian did not make his/her intentions clear, if he/she is in seat 6 and neither seat 7 nor the dealer heard him/her then he/she did not make his intentions clear. According to the TDA Rules under rule 3 and 44, "It is the responsibility of players to make their intentions clear". This expressly relates to non-standard guestures or non-standard language but I think the last line clearly implies that it relates to all intentions.

                                                                                        In this case he/she did not make his/her intentions clear to the dealer, the dealer mucked his/her hand and therefore the villian loses the hand and any chips he/she put in.

                                                                                        As for people stating that "QQ tabled his/her hand", thats taking a rule completely out of context. That rule relates to "Dealers cannot kill a winning hand that was tabled and was obviously the winning hand". But the QQ is not a winning hand as there is no board in place.

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                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          I'm gonna turn over all sorts of muck when someone raises and say nothing at my next tourney & when raiser mucks I'm gonna lay claim to every pot
                                                                                          Last edited by Dice75; 30-11-11, 13:30.

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                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Originally posted by curleywurley View Post


                                                                                            What would YOU do?

                                                                                            AA has no hand as he didn't table his cards. QQ has a hand as he did. To me that's the crux of this problem. It would certainly hold at showdown but I don't know if this rule applies here, it's a hard one like. We only have hero's word for the cards he had, which is not enough.

                                                                                            It sounds like there was no riffle so the hand is not over and everything in theory can be brought back to the stage of who has a hand or not, which would mean QQ takes the loot.

                                                                                            However, I think in this situation, it's fair to give AA his last bet back.
                                                                                            That's a bizarre way to read it.
                                                                                            QQ was in the muck when hero still had cards. Therefore QQ was dead and hero should win without showdown as last player standing.

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              Look at it from another point of view, if the QQ player turned his cards over without making a clear action, would his hand not be dead for exposing it?

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                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                                                                That's a bizarre way to read it.
                                                                                                QQ was in the muck when hero still had cards. Therefore QQ was dead and hero should win without showdown as last player standing.
                                                                                                I've never been aware of a last man standing rule, sorry and thanks. What does it state?

                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Originally posted by Lisa View Post
                                                                                                  Okay so that means it goes from partly dealer fault to mostly dealer fault. Still same ruling.
                                                                                                  So you rule that AA is dead because its in the muck, but the QQ isn't.

                                                                                                  But think about it this way, if the hero had heard villain say call before he showed his cards, and the dealer had acted in the exact same way, would the hero have mucked his hand as he did? No, logic dictates that he would have protected his hand no matter what. Even though he didn't hear "call" here, nor did he hear fold so he should have protected his hand no matter what.
                                                                                                  Again you are ignoring the fact that the QQ was in the muck. So he no longer needs to protect his hand.
                                                                                                  Are you honestly suggesting that he should sit there and hold on to AA refusing to give it back to the dealer after all other cards are in the muck, the deck spread and the pot push over to him.
                                                                                                  He should prob bang the table like a chimp and throw faeces around the room while he is at it if that's the case.

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                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    Originally posted by curleywurley View Post
                                                                                                    I've never been aware of a last man standing rule, sorry and thanks. What does it state?
                                                                                                    The last man standing rule is not used by the TDA, they insist that the winning hand must be shown, the pokerstars rules use last man standing and it states the following:
                                                                                                    "Winning hand – A player must show all of their cards to collect the pot.This includes playing the board.If there is only one player remaining with cards, they do not have to show a winning hand to collect the pot.For example, player B bets the river and player A calls.Player B then mucks leaving player A as the only player remaining in the pot with cards.Player A then collects the pot without having to show his or her hand."

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                                                                                                      #51
                                                                                                      Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                                                                      So you rule that AA is dead because its in the muck, but the QQ isn't.
                                                                                                      Again you are ignoring the fact that the QQ was in the muck. So he no longer needs to protect his hand .
                                                                                                      Villain said call in an all-in situation and tabled his cards face up. I don't think its up to the player to protect their cards after that point, do you?

                                                                                                      Are you honestly suggesting that he should sit there and hold on to AA refusing to give it back to the dealer after all other cards are in the muck, the deck spread and the pot push over to him
                                                                                                      No I'm suggesting he ask the player if he folded. Ignore what the dealer is doing as he hasn't heard the word fold from the player, and say: did you say fold? Now I'm not saying I would have done that. And I'm just giving my opinion of the rules. I did state earlier that its an unfortunate situation.

                                                                                                      He should prob bang the table like a chimp and throw faeces around the room while he is at it if that's the case.
                                                                                                      Yes obviously throwing faeces around the room is the next logical step here. Well done.

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                                                                                                        #52
                                                                                                        Ruling should be u keep the pot if the dealer says he folded anything after that is baiscly dealer error which IMO isn't your fault so shouldn't affect u no chips returned.

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                                                                                                          #53
                                                                                                          Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                                                                          He only mucked after the QQ was in the muck, kinda relevant detail that you are leaving out.
                                                                                                          Originally posted by curleywurley View Post
                                                                                                          QQ tabled his hand.
                                                                                                          These are why this is one of the most difficult situations I've seen posted for a long time.

                                                                                                          As regards the QQ guy making his intention clear, he made it clear enough for the TD standing behind him to have no doubt as to what he said. After a long tank you cannot rely on the bystander players, and to an extent even the opponent in the hand, to be fully concentrating on the action the player in the tank eventually takes.

                                                                                                          Also DPT are you not taking a ruling in favour of the QQ in your second post because that is the only hand that was shown and thus according to you is the only one that can win the pot
                                                                                                          Turning millions into thousands

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                                                                                                            #54
                                                                                                            Originally posted by Lisa View Post
                                                                                                            Villain said call in an all-in situation and tabled his cards face up. I don't think its up to the player to protect their cards after that point, do you?
                                                                                                            The rules say its up to the player to protect his hand at all times.
                                                                                                            This could of been as simple as speaking up as soon as the dealer took his cards.

                                                                                                            No I'm suggesting he ask the player if he folded. Ignore what the dealer is doing as he hasn't heard the word fold from the player, and say: did you say fold? Now I'm not saying I would have done that. And I'm just giving my opinion of the rules. I did state earlier that its an unfortunate situation.
                                                                                                            Bit unfair to suggest he do something that you might not actually do.
                                                                                                            He shouldn't be punished for mucking after dealer folds QQ.

                                                                                                            I tend to hold my cards a bit longer than most, but once the cards are washed and chips pushed my way I lay them down beside the muck.

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                                                                                                              #55
                                                                                                              Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                                                                              I tend to hold my cards a bit longer than most, but once the cards are washed and chips pushed my way I lay them down beside the muck.
                                                                                                              Another thing I do in spots like this where its not absolutely certain what action the player in the tank took, is to ask the dealer, is that a call or a fold.

                                                                                                              The more I think about it the more I'd want the full pot I'd had the QQ.

                                                                                                              I know its not at issue in this particular case but its very easy for this to be an angleshoot by someone else in the OP's position.
                                                                                                              Turning millions into thousands

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                                                                                                                #56
                                                                                                                Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
                                                                                                                These are why this is one of the most difficult situations I've seen posted for a long time.
                                                                                                                Totally agree.

                                                                                                                QQ made his intent for SD perfectly clear.
                                                                                                                Dealer messed up by mucking the cards (which are still live b/c they have been tabled) although QQ should definitely speak up immediately, which constitutes him not protecting his hand. Why TD hasn't taken control of the proceedings at this point is terrible!
                                                                                                                AA thinks he's won the pot and mucks (not protecting his hand).
                                                                                                                No-one has done their job here lol Dealer, TD or BOTH players.
                                                                                                                I'm starting to like your original ruling of a split.

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                                                                                                                  #57
                                                                                                                  Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post

                                                                                                                  I know its not at issue in this particular case but its very easy for this to be an angleshoot by someone else in the OP's position.
                                                                                                                  I can't see a possible angle here?

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                                                                                                                    #58
                                                                                                                    Originally posted by curleywurley View Post
                                                                                                                    Totally agree.

                                                                                                                    QQ made his intent for SD perfectly clear.
                                                                                                                    Dealer messed up by mucking the cards (which are still live b/c they have been tabled) although QQ should definitely speak up immediately, which constitutes him not protecting his hand. Why TD hasn't taken control of the proceedings at this point is terrible!
                                                                                                                    AA thinks he's won the pot and mucks (not protecting his hand).
                                                                                                                    No-one has done their job here lol Dealer, TD or BOTH players.
                                                                                                                    I'm starting to like your original ruling of a split.

                                                                                                                    This point was made already on this but I'll say it again.....when there are no cards in front of any players and the dealer shoves the chips to you how long do you hold onto your cards for?

                                                                                                                    You just can't penalise the hero for giving the cards to the dealer here. Anyone suggesting this, can they not see how this would affect future rulings?

                                                                                                                    When facing an all in bet, all you have to do is turn over your hand, say nothing, allow it to be mucked, allow the chips to go to opponent, opponent mucks and then pipe up that you said call. It's ridiculous to think that it would be entertained.

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                                                                                                                      #59
                                                                                                                      Originally posted by curleywurley View Post
                                                                                                                      I can't see a possible angle here?
                                                                                                                      Once he tables QQ and you see the dealer making the mistake you get that A Rag in the muck asap.
                                                                                                                      Turning millions into thousands

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                                                                                                                        #60
                                                                                                                        Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
                                                                                                                        Once he tables QQ and you see the dealer making the mistake you get that A Rag in the muck asap.
                                                                                                                        He'd wanna have some balls taking the time to show the ace too

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