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    One Chip Raise Rule

    I play regularly in tournaments where the player pool is relatively new and inexperienced. There is some bad habits regarding putting in chip amounts to make it easier for dealers to make change. Recently I've started pulling them up and forcing them to raise where I see this happening as my argument is when they move to outside games they will be put in terrible spots over this error. I shouldn't have to do this as it should be the dealer pulling them for it.

    Problem now is one of the cardroom managers says what they are doing is fine and he would rule it as a call.

    For my own sanity I'd like confirmation of the rule before correcting him as well.

    Example 1

    Player A limps for 300
    Player B raises to 700
    Player A throws a 1k chip in to the pot on top of the 3 chips already in there for the limp without saying call or raise. I'd argue that this is an automatic raise?

    Example 2 (A very regular occurrence)

    Player A raises to 600
    Player B throws in a 1k and a 100 chip in without saying call raise or anything. They do this regularly in the belief it's easier for dealers to give them a 500 chip change. My belief is they are 3 betting the original raise by doing this?

    Thanks in advance if any TD's could contribute to these queries for me or anyone in the know for that matter.

    Also if it is a raise when does it become a raise ie. if the increase is over 50% or what?
    They use the double the amount rule for raises in this club. ie raise to 600 reraise has to be 1200 min.
    Last edited by Sirtoyou; 26-03-13, 11:29.

    #2
    Originally posted by Sirtoyou View Post
    I play regularly in tournaments where the player pool is relatively new and inexperienced. There is some bad habits regarding putting in chip amounts to make it easier for dealers to make change. Recently I've started pulling them up and forcing them to raise where I see this happening as my argument is when they move to outside games they will be put in terrible spots over this error. I shouldn't have to do this as it should be the dealer pulling them for it.

    Problem now is one of the cardroom managers says what they are doing is fine and he would rule it as a call.

    For my own sanity I'd like confirmation of the rule before correcting him as well.

    Example 1

    Player A limps for 300
    Player B raises to 700
    Player A throws a 1k chip in to the pot on top of the 3 chips already in there for the limp without saying call or raise. I'd argue that this is an automatic raise?

    Example 2 (A very regular occurrence)

    Player A raises to 600
    Player B throws in a 1k and a 100 chip in without saying call raise or anything. They do this regularly in the belief it's easier for dealers to give them a 500 chip change. My belief is they are 3 betting the original raise by doing this?

    Thanks in advance if any TD's could contribute to these queries for me or anyone in the know for that matter.

    Also if it is a raise when does it become a raise ie. if the increase is over 50% or what?
    They use the double the amount rule for raises in this club. ie raise to 600 reraise has to be 1200 min.
    1st one is a call, 2nd one should be a raise (but usually is ruled a call for whatever reason).

    Had this debate with JP a while ago on here, will go look for the thread

    Comment


      #3
      If you want to raise, you should just have to say raise.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by *PocketRockets* View Post
        If you want to raise, you should just have to say raise.
        not true at all.



        SirtoYou, similar one there can't find the other one with JP. Was about a player thowing in an extra chip on a big blind without saying anything. Was ruled a call as one chip was used. Would have been different if picked up the big blind and added the extra chip and put it in that way as more than one chip. Must search harder

        Comment


          #5
          I'm not saying it is the rule, I just think it should be. Avoids all confusion.

          Comment


            #6
            These are the rules most people will go by
            SPOILER

            37: Raises

            A raise must be at least the size of the largest previous bet or raise of the current betting round. If a player puts in a raise of 50% or more of the previous bet but less than the minimum raise, he must make a full raise. The raise will be exactly the minimum raise allowed (see exception for multiple same-denomination chips in Rule 39). In no-limit and pot limit, an all-in wager of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted.

            38: Oversized Chip Betting

            Anytime when facing a bet or blind, placing a single oversized chip in the pot is a call if a raise isn’t first verbally declared. To raise with an oversized chip, raise must be declared before the chip hits the table surface. If raise is declared (but no amount), the raise is the maximum allowable for that chip. When not facing a bet, placing an oversized chip in the pot without declaration is a bet of the maximum for the chip.

            39: Multiple Chip Betting

            When facing a bet, unless a raise is first declared, multiple same-denomination chips is a call if removing one chip leaves less than the call amount. Example of a call: preflop, blinds are 200-400: A raises to 1200 total (an 800 raise), B puts out two 1000 chips without declaring raise. This is just a call because removing one 1000 chip leaves less than the amount needed to call the 1200 bet. Placing mixed denomination chips in the pot is governed by the 50% standard in Rule 37.


            Grey area is caused in example 1 because the rule does not define what is considered putting in. Do the chips count if they are in already, or not? This is still debated amongst TDs and players.

            I maintain he is putting in one chip so it stands as a call, he has opportunity to clarify otherwise.

            Example 2
            It is a raise, he puts in 2 chips and makes no verbal declaration then its a raise. Its not the players concern to make things easier for the dealer. if the dealer wants him to put in an extra 100 so he can give 5 change then the dealer will ask. If not then the player can place 1k chip in, then add 100 to it, or simply state 'call'.

            Causing deliberate ambiguity because of refusal to speak an action makes things much harder for everyone. When in doubt, speak.

            Raising:
            a raise needs to be the same amount (or greater) than the previous bet.
            Ie 200-400-600-800-1000-1200 etc. (+200 each time)
            or 200-900-1600-2300-3000-3700 etc (700 each time)

            The 50% rule determines if the bet counts as a raise or not, for instance if I go all in for 4000 in the next step above (after 3700). 50% of the bet (350) would mean that any bet over 4050 would be considered a raise, any less then it's a call. So my all in bet of 4k would only be considered a bet not a raise.

            In your example 2
            the action is 600, the minimum raise would be to 1200. 50% of this is 900, any bet of 900 or more would be a raise.

            The player throws in 2 chips totaling 1100, this is over 900 and multiple chips so he must make up the amount to 1200. If he threw in 1k chip and said nothing then this is a single chip and considered a call.

            Comment


              #7
              Nah. you dont ever have to speak at a poker table. What if you go abroad and don't speak the language?

              Good question Sirtoyou.

              Question 1. They should have removed the 3 chips prior to the addtion of the larger chip,
              Q2. Should be a raise but often the dealer will have to clarify with the player.
              I tended to request players put a single chip in and if needed I'd request a100 chip or whatever later if needed for change.

              Edit: The double the bet/raise is club specific, and it's a balls of a situation.
              Depends on the general level of aptitude of the customer, and the level of the game being run.
              Ie. PP IrishOpen will prob be double the raise,
              Some reg €50 f/o would be double the bet.
              Last edited by Micknail; 26-03-13, 12:22.
              ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿

              Comment


                #8
                I think they're both raises. Can be harsh but that's the rules. It's not that tough to pull in the extra chips with your other hand as you throw at the big chip.

                I much prefer putting out chips to make bets rather than having to verblise them. Putting out more than one chip shouldn't be ambiguous.

                Also players usually slow down games when they try to make things easier on the dealer.
                Last edited by Denny Crane; 26-03-13, 12:52.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                  I think they're both raises. Can be harsh but that's the rules. It's not that tough to pull in the extra chips with your other hand as you throw at the big chip.

                  I much prefer putting out chips to make bets rather than having to verblise them. Putting out more than one chip shouldn't be ambiguous.

                  Also players usually slow down games when they try to make things easier on the dealer.
                  +1

                  In example 1, that's my standard raise if i'm in the blinds or if i'm 4 betting. I always just flick chips in and say nothing and there shouldn't be any ambiguity. It's a reason i hate only have larger denom chips because i hate verbally announcing bets. You put chips in the pot and it hits/lands beside chips, then that's the bet.

                  In example 2, i just turn a blind eye to this. I know there's rules but in lots of pubs and clubs, 99% of players are only doing this to save the dealer hassle. e.g. blinds 50/100, player A makes it 325, and Player B puts out 500 and a 25 chips. I'd never ever seen that as either a) an attempted raise, or b) an angleshoot.

                  I don't think it should be enforced strictly either. I wouldn't mind seeing every player getting 1 warning if they do it in 'strange' tournament for them, but in their local casino i never even worry. I'll often ask if it's a raise, but i wouldn't force it.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    The first one is simply a call. When there is no interaction with the chips in the middle and a player throws out 1 chip it's a call. It is the same for a player being in the small blind; if the blinds are 100/200 and a players throws out one 500 chip without announcing raise or interacting with his 100 small blind, that's just a call.

                    In the second instance, as said before it should be a raise. However, I'd let the first one go as being a call, verify the rule with the player and if it happened again its then a raise.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Doyler92 View Post
                      The first one is simply a call. When there is no interaction with the chips in the middle and a player throws out 1 chip it's a call. It is the same for a player being in the small blind; if the blinds are 100/200 and a players throws out one 500 chip without announcing raise or interacting with his 100 small blind, that's just a call.

                      In the second instance, as said before it should be a raise. However, I'd let the first one go as being a call, verify the rule with the player and if it happened again its then a raise.
                      Did you read the first one properly?

                      He opens to 300, another guy makes it 700 and when it gets back to him, he throws a 1k chip on top of his 3x100 chips to raise to 1300. How is that not interaction?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                        Did you read the first one properly?

                        He opens to 300, another guy makes it 700 and when it gets back to him, he throws a 1k chip on top of his 3x100 chips to raise to 1300. How is that not interaction?
                        In this action he has only picked up one oversized chip and thrown it into the pot. He has not picked up the 3 x 100 chips and thrown them with the 1k chip. In my opinion it has to be a call as he only put 1 chip in in this action without announcing raise.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by BrianN View Post
                          In this action he has only picked up one oversized chip and thrown it into the pot. He has not picked up the 3 x 100 chips and thrown them with the 1k chip. In my opinion it has to be a call as he only put 1 chip in in this action without announcing raise.
                          Yeah, but that's exactly how i raise. It's 100% an intentional raise, or else he either takes out his 300 chips before or afterwards. His intent is clear, his action was enough to signify it as a raise and ruling it as a call would be an angleshoot and incorrect imo.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                            Yeah, but that's exactly how i raise. It's 100% an intentional raise, or else he either takes out his 300 chips before or afterwards. His intent is clear, his action was enough to signify it as a raise and ruling it as a call would be an angleshoot and incorrect imo.
                            Would you not raise in this instance by picking up the chips and adding the 1k chip to the bet? I would do that 100% of the time to avoid it being declared a call the other way

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                              Yeah, but that's exactly how i raise. It's 100% an intentional raise, or else he either takes out his 300 chips before or afterwards. His intent is clear, his action was enough to signify it as a raise and ruling it as a call would be an angleshoot and incorrect imo.
                              If he is allowed to take out his chips afterwards would that not allow him to get a read off his opponent before deciding whether he is raising or calling (similar in ways to a stringbet). Its exactly how I call in that situation. Throw out my 1 chip and take back my other chips then. Never thought I was doing anything wrong tbh.

                              FWIW the player in question was trying to call. And this interfering player not involved in the hand made him raise
                              SPOILER
                              Sirtoyou

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by ghostface View Post
                                Would you not raise in this instance by picking up the chips and adding the 1k chip to the bet? I would do that 100% of the time to avoid it being declared a call the other way
                                No, why would i want to do that? I've never been called up on a string bet/is it a raise/is it a call, in the 10 years i've been playing live poker. e.g if i raise to 800 but putting out 8 x 100 chips, a guy makes it 2k and i want to make it 5300, i'm just going to flick out 4500 on top my chips. I'm not going to gather up the chips out there. It's a personal preference and my intent is never in doubt. There's 1000s of players out there that say as little as possible when involved in a hand and they let the chips announce the action.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                  No, why would i want to do that? I've never been called up on a string bet/is it a raise/is it a call, in the 10 years i've been playing live poker. e.g if i raise to 800 but putting out 8 x 100 chips, a guy makes it 2k and i want to make it 5300, i'm just going to flick out 4500 on top my chips. I'm not going to gather up the chips out there. It's a personal preference and my intent is never in doubt. There's 1000s of players out there that say as little as possible when involved in a hand and they let the chips announce the action.
                                  Yeah that is fine, 4500 = more than 1 chip. The issue is when it is a single chip like in the OP

                                  I don't announce raises FWIW

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    @the Jp Masters, it was folded around to me in the sb at 150-300, I threw in a 500 chip on top of the 150 which I left there. I felt this is an obvious raise to 650 although the dealer ruled it as only a call.

                                    Good thread, rule needs to be cleared up.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Scenario A is a call imo. If you want to raise, either announce 'raise' or throw out a 25 or something with your 1,000. As it is you are only putting in one oversized chip.

                                      Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                      Yeah, but that's exactly how i raise. It's 100% an intentional raise, or else he either takes out his 300 chips before or afterwards. His intent is clear, his action was enough to signify it as a raise and ruling it as a call would be an angleshoot and incorrect imo.
                                      By taking out chips in the pot and then putting in further chips, or ther other way round, is more than one action so could be ruled a string bet if we are getting sticky about rules.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by NewApproach View Post
                                        Scenario A is a call imo. If you want to raise, either announce 'raise' or throw out a 25 or something with your 1,000. As it is you are only putting in one oversized chip.
                                        You are putting in one EXTRA oversized chip. It's not even oversized. You're just putting your chips into the pot alongside others. I 100% agree one someone placing 1 chip into the pot, but you already have chips out there.


                                        By taking out chips in the pot and then putting in further chips, or ther other way round, is more than one action so could be ruled a string bet if we are getting sticky about rules.
                                        I didn't say that. Ghostface said that's what he does and asked me why i don't do it. I never take chips out or vice versa.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          I think I found the thread were JP clarified this before http://www.irishpokerboards.com/foru...ead.php?t=7008

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                            You are putting in one EXTRA oversized chip. It's not even oversized. You're just putting your chips into the pot alongside others. I 100% agree one someone placing 1 chip into the pot, but you already have chips out there.
                                            Hope that reads alright as a cross quote

                                            Originally posted by Jp Poker

                                            It's still just a call if he only places 1 chip into the pot.
                                            Originally posted by Donkathon

                                            really like to hear a reply from JP does he seriously not count the sb as chips in the pot?
                                            Originally posted by Jp Poker

                                            The chips are already in the pot!

                                            This is a standard rule which I've seen used all across Europe. The players intentions are not clear and so we rule based on the one chip rule.

                                            In the OP the SB even said call.

                                            Let me give you another example...

                                            Say we are on the flop.

                                            Player A places a single 5k chip into the pot and says bet 1k.
                                            Player B announces raise 3,100.
                                            Player A places a single 100 chip into the pot and said nothing.

                                            Do we rule its a call because we think that the player was trying to make the dealers job easy so he could give back 2 single 1k chips?

                                            Is it a raise to 5,100

                                            If we think its a raise and we use double the total bet, do we now use the 50% rule and make it 6,200

                                            Or if we think its raise and we use double the increment do we make it a min raise of and make it 5,200

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              [QUOTE=NewApproach;688407]Scenario A is a call imo. If you want to raise, either announce 'raise' or throw out a 25 or something with your 1,000. As it is you are only putting in one oversized chip.
                                              QUOTE]

                                              So we are looking at the chips on the table, 1 x 1000 and 3 x 100.
                                              It looks like more than one chip to me!

                                              Either take the smaller ones back before throwing in the big one for a call, or just throw it out for a raise.
                                              ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                [QUOTE=Micknail;688417][QUOTE=NewApproach;688407]Scenario A is a call imo. If you want to raise, either announce 'raise' or throw out a 25 or something with your 1,000. As it is you are only putting in one oversized chip.

                                                So we are looking at the chips on the table, 1 x 1000 and 3 x 100.
                                                It looks like more than one chip to me!

                                                Either take the smaller ones back before throwing in the big one for a call, or just throw it out for a raise.
                                                In this action he is only putting in one chip

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  If the sb doesn't want to raise why leave out two chips?

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Micknail View Post
                                                    Originally posted by NewApproach View Post
                                                    Scenario A is a call imo. If you want to raise, either announce 'raise' or throw out a 25 or something with your 1,000. As it is you are only putting in one oversized chip.
                                                    So we are looking at the chips on the table, 1 x 1000 and 3 x 100.
                                                    It looks like more than one chip to me!

                                                    Either take the smaller ones back before throwing in the big one for a call, or just throw it out for a raise.
                                                    He's only adding one chip.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Player A throws a 1k chip in to the pot on top of the 3 chips already in there for the limp without saying call or raise. I'd argue that this is an automatic raise?
                                                      If you buy a bottle of water for €1 and hand the shopkeeper €10, is it ok for them to assume you don't want change back unless you tell them?

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                                        If the sb doesn't want to raise why leave out two chips?
                                                        If it's only deemed a raise by whether or not chips are taken out of the pot after the 1k has been put in, this is essentially a string bet, as it is unclear what your intentions are when you make the first movement of chips.

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by BrianN View Post
                                                          In this action he is only putting in one chip
                                                          Fair enough, although it does strike me that it's laziness on the players part.
                                                          Bet is say 700,
                                                          Player should take back the small chips and just put in the one oversize chip if they dont have the right amount available.
                                                          Dealer will give change or just request an additional 1/2 x 100 chips for handiness if required.
                                                          ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by nismo9 View Post
                                                            If you buy a bottle of water for €1 and hand the shopkeeper €10, is it ok for them to assume you don't want change back unless you tell them?
                                                            I'd say he would give change alrite, not sure what that has to do with the rules of poker though

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Micknail View Post
                                                              Fair enough, although it does strike me that it's laziness on the players part.
                                                              Bet is say 700,
                                                              Player should take back the small chips and just put in the one oversize chip if they dont have the right amount available.
                                                              Dealer will give change or just request an additional 1/2 x 100 chips for handiness if required.
                                                              I agree but by rule I think the action he made should be a call.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by BrianN View Post
                                                                I agree but by rule I think the action he made should be a call.
                                                                Actually yeah, when I think about it, if say he (/she) threw in a 5k chip, ie they had 2x 5k chips and 3x 100 chips, it would be in 95% of cases assumed to be a call, due to lack of other options.

                                                                So does this mean the onus is on the lads raising to scoop the chips already on the table into their hand and place them with the oversize chip all down at once?
                                                                Last edited by Micknail; 26-03-13, 16:15.
                                                                ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Anyone completing from the small blind by throwing in an oversize chip is being intentionally vague imo. It's probably the same guy who indicates left the whole way around a roundabout before taking the last exit.

                                                                  Scenario 2 is a raise. Dealers don't need 'help'... weeelll maybe some do Seriously, just look at the confusion that often arises when players 'help the dealer out' by moving the button.

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    I think the crux of it is when I first played in casino's I always remember these kind of rules being strictly enforced and we learned by our mistakes. In recent years too many grey areas and allowing of bad habits seem to have crept in imo.
                                                                    I think part of a casino's duty is to provide a fair and honest game but also a definitive set of rules to adhere to so as to ready their players to be able to play bigger games in the future. In a pub game fair enough leniency is fine but in a structured game where fees are paid for professional dealers I think a disservice is being done if the players are not being made familiar with the laws of the game.

                                                                    I think the comment that you shouldn't have to speak at all in a game if you so choose is a valid one. Surely this players intentions should be viable by chip action alone and if he throws a 1k chip in on top of his three 100 chips this is a raise?

                                                                    In example 2 surely this is a definite raise as he's thrown two chips in even though it can be interpreted that he is making it easier for change.

                                                                    I'm surprised that there is argument in either case tbh but I said I'd start the thread as someone as clever as BrianN had a differing opinion.

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Actually thinking about it now if we presumed the player is mute and can only communicate by chip action how would these rulings be. Chip action should take precedence over voice declarations?

                                                                      Also how hard would it be to have incremental raising allowed as the norm ie. blinds 150/300 raise to 600 three bet to 900?

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by Sirtoyou View Post
                                                                        Actually thinking about it now if we presumed the player is mute and can only communicate by chip action how would these rulings be. Chip action should take precedence over voice declarations?

                                                                        Also how hard would it be to have incremental raising allowed as the norm ie. blinds 150/300 raise to 600 three bet to 900?
                                                                        Racist!

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          i agree with croc here people get to lazy just throwing in chips and saying nothing .

                                                                          i say it all the time state what your action is going to be then there will be no problems raise or call is all that is needed and he right in what he doing

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                                                            Yeah, but that's exactly how i raise. It's 100% an intentional raise, or else he either takes out his 300 chips before or afterwards. His intent is clear, his action was enough to signify it as a raise and ruling it as a call would be an angleshoot and incorrect imo.
                                                                            Rules cannot be made on your intention, you may intend it is a raise, but some people bet like this and they intend it as a call. Intention, as far as rulings go, means nothing. Its always best to be clear.

                                                                            It is also not the players responsibility to take change, but the dealers to give it to him. People often bet like this fully expecting the dealer to pass them back the original 300 chips.

                                                                            Originally posted by ghostface View Post
                                                                            Yeah that is fine, 4500 = more than 1 chip. The issue is when it is a single chip like in the OP
                                                                            I don't announce raises FWIW
                                                                            Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                                                                            @the Jp Masters, it was folded around to me in the sb at 150-300, I threw in a 500 chip on top of the 150 which I left there. I felt this is an obvious raise to 650 although the dealer ruled it as only a call.

                                                                            Good thread, rule needs to be cleared up.
                                                                            In the uk dealers used to be trained to bring in all the chips as they were bet, (unlike the ROTW where they are left out until the end of the round) while it's not something i like, it did prevent this situation from occurring.

                                                                            The confusion comes from the mentality that the chips (150 in your case) are still in front of you so you still think that they are yours and you are just adding 500 to them.

                                                                            In practice however those are no longer 'your' chips, they are part of the pot. so you arent adding to them you are placing in a separate 500 chip so the rule of an oversize chip comes into play.

                                                                            If those chips were no longer sat in front of you then you would make sure to clarify your action.

                                                                            As you say
                                                                            I threw in a 500 chip on top of the 150 which I left there
                                                                            You didnt leave them there, the dealer left them there.
                                                                            once you have bet them they belong to the pot.

                                                                            rule needs to be cleared up.
                                                                            I think the rule is fine and it works in practice, but you are correct in that it does need to be written in less ambiguous terms.

                                                                            Comment

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