Fun hand

[FeetMagic]

Played some live cash Friday night & the following hand occurred. I was planning on leaving any minute when I pick up AQ in late position. There was only 6 at the table & it folded to me in the CO. I had about €390.

Villain in the hand moved from a different table about 30 mins before. He's played a good few hands, likes to see flops - didn't notice anything strange about his play. He lost one pot with a FD when he check-raised a short stack (€150) heads up on a 7sJsA flop with QKss after calling a 3 bet blind on blind.

I raise to €7. Both blinds call.

Flop is QQ7, two clubs. Checked to me, I bet €13, SB calls (has me covered), BB folds.

Turn non-club 5. Check, I bet €30, call.

River non-club 8. He check-raises all in after I bet €70.

€270 behind and decision time...

[eamonhonda]

Tough spot when your holding AQ there but is he really capable of a check raise all in with a bluff or the case queen worse kicker? Nothing wrong with your play on any street but it has to be a fold for me on the river expecting him to turn over 88 or 77

[Lord Sir Banter]

ul

[CHDad]

You should have left before this hand.

[Hectorjelly]

No decision, you can't fold. He can be bluffing or have a worse queen.

[NicoSanty]

No decision, you can't fold. He can be bluffing or have a worse queen.

I haven't seen your average live Irish cash game player check jam a river as a bluff after calling 2 streets in about 3 years.

Worse Q's are a possibility but highly unlikely given the way the hand played out.

It's a fold long term imo.

[Guest]

I haven't seen your average live Irish cash game player check jam a river as a bluff after calling 2 streets in about 3 years.

Worse Q's are a possibility but highly unlikely given the way the hand played out.

It's a fold long term imo.

This imo. The chances of a random live player check jamming 175 big blinds with a worse Q or a bluff on the river are minuscule.

[KevIRL]

He has AQ also

[Hectorjelly]

Seriously? How do you think a random live player plays KQ or a missed flush draw? I mean if his range is sets or AQ then yeah its an easy fold, but I'd never fold in a million years here. You are playing in terrible games if the fish can't do this with Qx

[DAMO72]

Not even a decision, snap call . At worse its the same hand

[NicoSanty]

Seriously? How do you think a random live player plays KQ or a missed flush draw? I mean if his range is sets or AQ then yeah its an easy fold, but I'd never fold in a million years here. You are playing in terrible games if the fish can't do this with Qx

Random live players generally raise flop or turn with most Qx here and don't check raise river often enough in this spot with those hands to make calling here profitable.

[flash]

Easy call here for me but wouldn't be suprised if he turns over Q8s

[DAMO72]

Villain prob turns up with 9 6 or 4 6 and starts to explain why its his favourite hand . Fuckin spaztards you gotta love em

[Hectorjelly]

Why would they check raise the turn with KQ, but wait to check raise the river with a house? Do they define their hand so clearly?

[Closed_Account]

I agree with Nico here and would be really reluctant to call , I would call, but would really expect to see a house of some sort. In todays games its just not a bluff, close to ever.

[Bubbleking]

Id probably call in real time but am willing to take the word of nico santy who has more live experience in the Irish circuit than everyone in this thread put together

[NicoSanty]

Why would they check raise the turn with KQ, but wait to check raise the river with a house? Do they define their hand so clearly?

In a nutshell - yes. The way most bad Irish live cash game players have evolved in the past few years is that with their nuttish type hands like trips or sets, when they are not the aggressor, they generally wait til the turn before they try and bloat the pot by check raising the hands mentioned. They also do this to "protect" their hand from flush draws for fear of being outdrawn.

Their approach to full houses is often that they slowplay their hand to the river for fear of losing their opponents weaker value holdings and bluffs and also because their fear of being outdrawn is significantly lessened because well, simply, how often do you lose with a full house.

[FeetMagic]

Glad to see there is support for both sides. I think HJ's point stands versus a competent player and online it's probably a call but as Nico points out a very low number of live players would take this line with a worse hand. I did fold & KevIRL called it correct. He showed the same hand, probably the bottom of his range there although in retrospect he may do this with KQ.

The fun didn't stop there as I tangled with the same villain a while later. At this stage I've won a few pots & have around €500. There's 8 at the table now and 2 limp before I make it €15 in LP with QQ. Villain, who has become pretty active since my fold, flats from the BB as does one of the limpers.

Flop is 4 7 J. Checked to me and I bet €30. Villain calls & limper gets out of the way.

The turn is a 3 bringing a heart flush draw. He check-calls €70.

The river is a 6 of clubs. He check-raises my €100 bet all in. There's no speech play or much deliberation over i;, he took about 10 seconds, same as with the AQ. Should I have bet bigger on the river or checked behind and what's your decision now?

[Hectorjelly]

If he does it with AQ then there is no sane reason as to why he wouldn't do it with KQ, or QJ or Qx (each lower x has a slightly lower probability from a tight player).

I did find it quite unlikely that players would define their ranges quite so neatly.

On a board of 3467J its actually criminal to bet Queens if you don't know what you are going to do to a check raise.

This is a much much harder decision, you've been playing for a while with the villain so there's plenty of history, for instance if you folded the AQ and showed, then he knows you are capable of making big river folds, so may be trying to get you to fold an overpair. Without a particular read I think you have to fold, you're hand isn't very strong relatively.

Betting an amount that makes it look like you can easily fold to a check raise is probably the worst line to take here with queens here. If you bet big and look committed you can safely fold, if you bet small then you have to call because you've induced a bet that may be a bluff. Even if you didn't show the AQ, the guy knows you can bet fold the river.

[FeetMagic]

Didn't show the AQ fwiw, just told him nice hand.

[Guest]

Didn't show the AQ fwiw, just told him nice hand.

Did you have a plan when you ahd the aq hand?
It seems the last thing you were expecting was a check raise.

Betting the river on 3467j board what was going to call you?

[FeetMagic]

Did you have a plan when you ahd the aq hand?
It seems the last thing you were expecting was a check raise.

Betting the river on 3467j board what was going to call you?

I didn't have a plan for the AQ no. Really didn't expect a CR from him but I folded it quick enough. As for the 2nd hand I was going for thin value from any 1 pair hands, looked like he was calling me down with a Jack but I don't think he's ever CR'ing on this board as a bluff. Probably an easier fold than the AQ.

[Guest]

I didn't have a plan for the AQ no. Really didn't expect a CR from him but I folded it quick enough. As for the 2nd hand I was going for thin value from any 1 pair hands, looked like he was calling me down with a Jack but I don't think he's ever CR'ing on this board as a bluff. Probably an easier fold than the AQ.

well obv a bluff is all your beating.
He has checkraised you on dangerous boards already in the night and showed you the aq.
I doubt hes bluffing here but if he has you on an obv big pair he could be hard for you to call.

I see it lots people make a bet get raised or else check and have to call a bet and there perplexed. Its not hollywooding they have no idea what to do then waste 5 6 mins on adecision which should take much shorter.

[ibimon]

Hi.

Can someone please explain to me why the OP folded AQ? I read through the posts and didn't quiet understand it. Is it because the bet was too high? or for a small possibility of Full house?