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    50 Freezout double chance 5k+5k

    50 freezout double chance. 5k + 5k

    I always take my double chance straight away, read on old boards the reason why so have always taken it straight away since.

    The game is passive enough no one really showing to much aggro as of yet. i have 18k due to the fact that another player took his double chance and i flopped a house while he rivered a straight.

    Blinds are 200/400

    Im in the C/O i have AsKd. four 2 limpers to me and blinds still to go. i make 2175 to go.
    All fold back around to last remaing player he calls.
    Flop is 6d7d8s he checks i bet 2400 he calls turn is 2s he checks again i bet 2400 again he calls. river is a Kh. he insta pushes allin.

    i cant put him on a flopped straight here especially on this board so would 2 pair be a good call or is this just a call.

    If there is anything else you would like to know please let me know.
    http://www.sitnpoker.com/?amigosid=18

    #2
    Firstly, why can't he have a flopped straight? Are you sure he can fold suited connectors or mid pocket pairs getting 2-1 on seeing a flop? This is a live game we're talking about, players do all kinds of strange things.

    Secondly, I wouldn't cbet this flop, not even with AK. There are too many hands in our opponent's range that are calling it.
    "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by AndyFB View Post
      Firstly, why can't he have a flopped straight? Are you sure he can fold suited connectors or mid pocket pairs getting 2-1 on seeing a flop? This is a live game we're talking about, players do all kinds of strange things.
      Villian can definately have T9s (or off sometimes) here. A lot of live players are not playing the maths.

      Cbet size seems too small.

      You could also check the turn. You are still playing Ace high here remember (you might as well be playing total air for all the value your hand has at this point).

      Starting stack for villian would be useful too. Unless villian has already doubled up or also took the second chance chips straight away they should have so little behind that there is little you can do but call.
      Last edited by bp_me; 29-07-10, 10:10.
      May you live in interesting times!

      Comment


        #4
        I don't even cbet this flop.

        You're in position, take the free card.

        You are miles behind his check calling range on the flop, but you can easily be drawing to the best hand by checking. You are bluffing with a hand that can get value here. What is the with the turn bluff? If you are taking this line, the bet is way too small imo.

        If you had T9 yourself, what hands would you expect to call the cbet? How does AKo fare vs this range?

        Comment


          #5
          Preflop - Without knowing the stack size of the villian - i still dont like your bet sizing, sometime i would like to see 3250, massive raise in position in a live game looks like your trying to buy th pot and people spaz out, other time's i'd like to see like 1800, in a live game people limp intending to call a raise there fore your going to play AK in a mulit way pot so try to keep the pot small and mangable

          Flop - A live villian's range has hit the flop very hard, betting is possible the worst thing you can do, your not losing any draws, flush/straight, all made hands will call bets and never try to raise you off your hand, 2400 is just too small to get any hand (no matter how weak) thats beating you to fold

          Turn - never bet the same amount on the turn for the love of god, Villian is now getting 5 to 1 on a call and you look so weak when you make the same size bet, unless you do this all the time with the nuts and all strong hands of course

          River - without knowing stack size's can't answer but you bet two streets with AK so know you have hit the effective nut 1 pair hand


          Some Questions for you
          1. Villain stack size
          2. How did you come to the idea of your Pre-flop Raise
          3. Why did you bet 2400 on the flop
          4. What hands do you think the villian has called you with

          Comment


            #6
            How many limpers are there pre? If theres 2 I like yousr sizing, if theres 4 it needs to be bigger

            check flop, if you are going to bet, bet more. Ditto on turn, your turn bet is redic small

            River depends on size of bet. call/call/shove is usually a monster from passive fish though

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by pgodkin View Post
              Preflop - Without knowing the stack size of the villian - i still dont like your bet sizing, sometime i would like to see 3250, massive raise in position in a live game looks like your trying to buy th pot and people spaz out, other time's i'd like to see like 1800, in a live game people limp intending to call a raise there fore your going to play AK in a mulit way pot so try to keep the pot small and mangable

              Flop - A live villian's range has hit the flop very hard, betting is possible the worst thing you can do, your not losing any draws, flush/straight, all made hands will call bets and never try to raise you off your hand, 2400 is just too small to get any hand (no matter how weak) thats beating you to fold

              Turn - never bet the same amount on the turn for the love of god, Villian is now getting 5 to 1 on a call and you look so weak when you make the same size bet, unless you do this all the time with the nuts and all strong hands of course

              River - without knowing stack size's can't answer but you bet two streets with AK so know you have hit the effective nut 1 pair hand


              Some Questions for you
              1. Villain stack size
              2. How did you come to the idea of your Pre-flop Raise
              3. Why did you bet 2400 on the flop
              4. What hands do you think the villian has called you with

              villain stack size 11k

              blinds 200/400 2 limpers and blinds to go so i thou a good raise put best part out.

              honestly i bet 2400 cause ithou it was the right amount. no idea as to why i bet the turn same amount. im here to learn.

              villain is very lag, will draw for his stack if he feels the mood. i honeslty put him on a flush/straight draw. i cant see him having a flopped straight on that board. reason been if my bets are so equal (or terrible more like) it would look like i was drawing. tryin to keep the pot managable in order to hit my draw.

              its the jam on the river that gets me here, and the more i read the more terrible i feel about the way i played this hand.

              why would he want to raise his flopped striaght into me or his set. he had a donkey doing the betting for him what more could he want.

              i hate this hand the more i read into it the more i played it so bad. but lads dont let that stop ye giving some pointers
              http://www.sitnpoker.com/?amigosid=18

              Comment


                #8
                Make it more pre, something like 2,600 imo. Check back flop for sure, if called I highly doubt I would be double barrelling and if I was my sizing would be alot bigger.

                As played I think the river is a fold

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by DarvinMoon View Post
                  Make it more pre, something like 2,600 imo.
                  I don't get this.... with two limpers he raised to nearly 5.5 bbs and you are saying that he should have raised to 6.5

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by DarvinMoon View Post
                    Make it more pre, something like 2,600 imo. Check back flop for sure, if called I highly doubt I would be double barrelling and if I was my sizing would be alot bigger.

                    As played I think the river is a fold
                    Originally posted by EssEll View Post
                    I don't get this.... with two limpers he raised to nearly 5.5 bbs and you are saying that he should have raised to 6.5
                    If I'm reading it properly a pot bet is 2200 so 2175 pre is fine.
                    May you live in interesting times!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I make it more pre live as people don't like to fold and ideally you wanna be HU with AK here

                      Comment


                        #12
                        more pre
                        I don't mind firing the flop sometimes against the right player
                        definitely check back turn
                        as played fold river I think

                        Comment


                          #13
                          So in the long run pre is just about ok.
                          2400 with 2 limpers blinds 2/400.
                          Flop should be 36/3800 r there abouts.
                          And turn is just plain awful. Should be checkin behind his turn check and hoping to be able to call a river bet of some sort without to much serious damage to my stack.

                          ???
                          http://www.sitnpoker.com/?amigosid=18

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Why are you betting the flop?
                            Why are you betting the turn?

                            Can you answer these questions? Would be better to understand your reasons behind doing something, not just learning the "correct" move.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by emmet02 View Post
                              Why are you betting the flop?
                              Why are you betting the turn?

                              Can you answer these questions? Would be better to understand your reasons behind doing something, not just learning the "correct" move.

                              Im betting the flop as a show of strenght to my preflop rasie.
                              i have no idea as to why i bet the turn he checked just thou he was weak and just bet again. Problem here i dont bet anywhere near enough or i should just not be betting at all.

                              Its horrible i know.
                              http://www.sitnpoker.com/?amigosid=18

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Ziggin&Zaggin View Post
                                Im betting the flop as a show of strenght to my preflop rasie.

                                what does this even mean?

                                i have no idea as to why i bet the turn he checked just thou he was weak and just bet again. Problem here i dont bet anywhere near enough or i should just not be betting at all. Panic?

                                Its horrible i know.
                                There are really only two reasons to bet in poker, one as a bluff, one for value. Its a very basic way of looking at it.

                                To bet for value, we do so as we believe we have the best hand and that we can get worse hands to call a bet.
                                For example, if the flop was K78s, you bet to get called by weaker Kings, to get called by flushdraws, to get calls from 99 and TT, and from straight draws. This is a value bet.

                                To bet as a bluff, we do so when we think that we don't have the best hand, and that we can get our opponent to fold better hands than us. For instance, firing two barrels with AQo on a K359r board, our opponent should fold everything except his strong Kings on such a dry board. Our hand is very weak vs the range that check calls a flop, but his range is weak vs a hand that can fire two barrels on such a dry board.

                                Is your bet on the flop for value or as a bluff? (against certain opponents it can be one or the other)
                                Is your bet on the turn a valuebet or a bluff? (again, this could possibly be either)

                                It is important to realise why you are doing something when you are doing it, not just going into autopilot.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by emmet02 View Post
                                  There are really only two reasons to bet in poker, one as a bluff, one for value. Its a very basic way of looking at it.

                                  To bet for value, we do so as we believe we have the best hand and that we can get worse hands to call a bet.
                                  For example, if the flop was K78s, you bet to get called by weaker Kings, to get called by flushdraws, to get calls from 99 and TT, and from straight draws. This is a value bet.

                                  To bet as a bluff, we do so when we think that we don't have the best hand, and that we can get our opponent to fold better hands than us. For instance, firing two barrels with AQo on a K359r board, our opponent should fold everything except his strong Kings on such a dry board. Our hand is very weak vs the range that check calls a flop, but his range is weak vs a hand that can fire two barrels on such a dry board.

                                  Is your bet on the flop for value or as a bluff? (against certain opponents it can be one or the other)
                                  Is your bet on the turn a valuebet or a bluff? (again, this could possibly be either)

                                  It is important to realise why you are doing something when you are doing it, not just going into autopilot.
                                  i think both bets are bluffs, bad 1s too, but turn bet is just awful. no substance what so ever in it. and it possibly could have been a bit of panic bet. Didnt take my time to evaluate the pot size for a start didnt take my time to evaluate my oppennts range. then when he jams river just shock i suppose.
                                  Here i AK and he's jamming it into me. with K on river. Just plain horrible and bad.
                                  http://www.sitnpoker.com/?amigosid=18

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Yes, both bets are bluffs, but I think this is a bad spot to bluff in.

                                    Reasons are,
                                    you have a hand which can pick up huge equity vs his range if an A or a K hits, you aren't going to stack KQo or AQo if your TP hits, so you want to keep the pot manageable. Checking behind on the flop gives you a chance to catch either of your cards, and get subsequent value from mid pairs which are way ahead of you at the moment.

                                    This is a bad board to cbet, as most of your range is made up of overcards which have clearly missed the board, he can profitably call the cbet with any PP below JJ, and will re evaluate on the turn.

                                    That's the flop bet.

                                    Now the turn bet. The turn is the veritable brick card, affecting neither of your ranges, and it makes it easier for the player with A8 to think that you are bluffing when you bet. This is because you are repping a very small range, pretty much TT+ and then maybe AJs+
                                    The bet size is terrible, and is something that players pick up on very often. If your bet stays the same size on the flop and the turn, it is very unlikely that your hand strength has changed. Whereas if you were betting an overpair, you would be betting more now, as you know that there are 2 FDs and a very co-ordinated board too, you would be trying to get maximum value here with a much bigger bet.

                                    On the river, after calling 2 bets, his range is certainly very strong. I think if he checks to me here, I am only making a very small valuebet and folding to a shove. When he donkshoves, he has a hand almost always, mostly on account of him knowing that the A hits you a lot.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by emmet02 View Post
                                      Yes, both bets are bluffs, but I think this is a bad spot to bluff in.

                                      Reasons are,
                                      you have a hand which can pick up huge equity vs his range if an A or a K hits, you aren't going to stack KQo or AQo if your TP hits, so you want to keep the pot manageable. Checking behind on the flop gives you a chance to catch either of your cards, and get subsequent value from mid pairs which are way ahead of you at the moment.

                                      This is a bad board to cbet, as most of your range is made up of overcards which have clearly missed the board, he can profitably call the cbet with any PP below JJ, and will re evaluate on the turn.

                                      That's the flop bet.

                                      Now the turn bet. The turn is the veritable brick card, affecting neither of your ranges, and it makes it easier for the player with A8 to think that you are bluffing when you bet. This is because you are repping a very small range, pretty much TT+ and then maybe AJs+
                                      The bet size is terrible, and is something that players pick up on very often. If your bet stays the same size on the flop and the turn, it is very unlikely that your hand strength has changed. Whereas if you were betting an overpair, you would be betting more now, as you know that there are 2 FDs and a very co-ordinated board too, you would be trying to get maximum value here with a much bigger bet.

                                      On the river, after calling 2 bets, his range is certainly very strong. I think if he checks to me here, I am only making a very small valuebet and folding to a shove. When he donkshoves, he has a hand almost always, mostly on account of him knowing that the A hits you a lot.
                                      I folded to river shove. I think it was the correct move although i did have TP TK on board.
                                      He asks do i wanna see i said ok. I put you on jj qq he says and he tables K10. He had a gut shot. i still think my play was by far the worse.

                                      Thanks for the in dept analysis Emmet.

                                      i have 1 other hand if u have a min.

                                      KQs on the button i have 10k r so. blinds now 400/800
                                      i make it 3200 r so to go. BB says allin I call while saying i put you on 10 10. he turns 10 10. i had already put 34/35% of my stack in so i think this was an auto call with blinds 4/800.

                                      Yes No
                                      http://www.sitnpoker.com/?amigosid=18

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        whats the BB stack?

                                        I probably just shove pre

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          I'm pretty annoyed that I deleted the original line saying that this is a decent spot for him to bluff too, as he can float the flop with a lot of hands, sense weakness on the turn, and shove a lot of rivers.

                                          He may well even be bluffing with the best hand here a bit had the A not hit.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by emmet02 View Post
                                            whats the BB stack?

                                            I probably just shove pre
                                            i have him covered
                                            http://www.sitnpoker.com/?amigosid=18

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by emmet02 View Post
                                              I'm pretty annoyed that I deleted the original line saying that this is a decent spot for him to bluff too, as he can float the flop with a lot of hands, sense weakness on the turn, and shove a lot of rivers.

                                              He may well even be bluffing with the best hand here a bit had the A not hit.
                                              even if it is a bluff is folding the right move here. all i can see that im beating is a bluff.
                                              http://www.sitnpoker.com/?amigosid=18

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Ziggin&Zaggin View Post
                                                i have him covered
                                                snap call. Open smaller to induce the shove vs a shorty though.

                                                You want him to think you are opening light enough so that he can resteal, he can shove with a whole lot worse than TT then.

                                                I possibly minraise + a tiny bit and snap a shove
                                                Last edited by Emmet; 29-07-10, 16:20.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Ziggin&Zaggin View Post
                                                  even if it is a bluff is folding the right move here. all i can see that im beating is a bluff.
                                                  yup, gotta fold

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by emmet02 View Post
                                                    yup, gotta fold
                                                    again thanks to all. thanks emmet for ur dept.

                                                    I final thing. 3 players left. 500 for first only no seconds or thirds or the like.

                                                    I have a 3.5 or a 4/1 lead over second and we tabled a deal where i get 300 and they get a 100 each.

                                                    Just that Ak was a bummer hand. and i played like a complete xxxxxxx
                                                    http://www.sitnpoker.com/?amigosid=18

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Just check back the flop.
                                                      Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        re hand one, pre was fine, one CB was fine, def check turn

                                                        if he's 11k before the hand then its 4k to call on the river and I think you have to call now. if he has two pair, a set or the flopped straight then he shoudn't be check calling flop and turn given all the draws. when he call calls then pushes on the river he has loads of missed draws in his range. only 4k more so call.

                                                        Comment

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