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    First hand. really??

    So I decided to travel to Galway and play the 20k gauranteed in Caesar's palace last thursday. Arrive just over an hour late and sit down with 22k at the 50/100 level. 1 hour levels btw. I get seat 4 and my first hand is 4c 9h utg and I fold.
    Then I look down at 3c 3d in the BB. Seat 6 limps(c22k stack), seat 8(c22k stack) makes it 650. Folded to me, I call. Seat 6 makes it 2600 and seat 8 calls. I decide to call also. Flop comes down Qh Jd 3h. I check. Limp raiser checks. Original raiser ships all in for 20k!!!
    What do I do? (no info on either player) Also, is the pre flop play just too spewy? I kinda feel I was dragged along the way the action went...

    #2
    call
    http://drjff.blogspot.com/

    Comment


      #3
      Are you familiar with the concept of early doors poker?

      Comment


        #4

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by mickste View Post
          Are you familiar with the concept of early doors poker?
          Well yes I am actualy. I read about it in another thread. So i just fold for the 650 raise then?

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by DrJFF View Post
            call
            and what about the pre flop action? call call?

            Comment


              #7
              Its an easy call now you have got there.
              Calling over 10% of your stack with a small pair is hardly optimal play.

              Id have folded for 650 but if im willing to call 650 oop id probably donk another 2k on top with the 3 3.

              Once you hit your set its get the chips in time id be shocked if dude has not kk or AA he does have qq or jj sometimes.

              Comment


                #8
                Call the 650. Fold to the 2600 one though. Snap It off now.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by SICKPUPPY View Post
                  Its an easy call now you have got there.
                  Calling over 10% of your stack with a small pair is hardly optimal play.

                  Id have folded for 650 but if im willing to call 650 oop id probably donk another 2k on top with the 3 3.

                  Once you hit your set its get the chips in time id be shocked if dude has not kk or AA he does have qq or jj sometimes.
                  The first call is standard (ish), if you call the limper will probably call with a range that you do brilliantly against, the fact you are out of position matters less with small pairs than any other hand, since you are either going to have an almost unbeatable hand, or a bluff catcher (nothing). I only say ish because its a 6.5bb raise.

                  The second call is much much closer, its about 2000 more. For this raise you are only getting about 10 - 1 implied odds to hit your set, which isn't normally enough. However, I'd probably call here because I'd expect UTG to have a very strong range and stack off almost all the time, and the other guy calling is good too. If you had less in your stack this would quickly become a terrible call.

                  The guy shoving all in probably doesn't have AA or KK, since he just called the limp raise. When people limp raise it's rarely with the intention of folding pre, so I'd be surprised to see anyone flat here with AA or KK. You still have to call here anyway, although I would be pretty reluctant. The only value hand you beat is QJ, and he is going to have QQ and JJ here a lot. QJ, plus all the draws he could have, plus random spazz factor (its the first hand we've seen him play, so he could be a donk) means you have to call though. QJ really should be unlikely given preflop though.

                  If he is in anyway competent, this is a rough range for him to have

                  Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

                  53,460 games 0.002 secs 26,730,000 games/sec

                  Board: Qc Jh 4h
                  Dead:

                  equity win tie pots won pots tied
                  Hand 0: 53.434% 53.43% 00.00% 28566 0.00 { 44 }
                  Hand 1: 46.566% 46.57% 00.00% 24894 0.00 { QQ-JJ, AhKh, Ah2h, QJs, Th9h, QJo }


                  ---

                  44,550 games 0.001 secs 44,550,000 games/sec

                  Board: Qc Jh 4h
                  Dead:

                  equity win tie pots won pots tied
                  Hand 0: 50.768% 50.77% 00.00% 22617 0.00 { 44 }
                  Hand 1: 49.232% 49.23% 00.00% 21933 0.00 { QQ-JJ, QJs, QJo }

                  I put in QQ and JJ, all the QJ, and some draws, AK and 9T of hearts, and A2h. There are other possible ones but I doubt he calls them pre that much.


                  If he is very tight you are in bad shape.

                  Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

                  23,760 games 0.001 secs 23,760,000 games/sec

                  Board: Qc Jh 4h
                  Dead:

                  equity win tie pots won pots tied
                  Hand 0: 24.066% 24.07% 00.00% 5718 0.00 { 44 }
                  Hand 1: 75.934% 75.93% 00.00% 18042 0.00 { QQ-JJ, QJs }

                  Anyway given the odds you are getting you can't really fold.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Haha, just read about early doors poker. Easy fold in that case.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Don't think you need to do so many calculations HJ. Pocket 3s on a Q J 4 board is an easy fold

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                        The first call is standard (ish), if you call the limper will probably call with a range that you do brilliantly against, the fact you are out of position matters less with small pairs than any other hand, since you are either going to have an almost unbeatable hand, or a bluff catcher (nothing). I only say ish because its a 6.5bb raise.

                        The second call is much much closer, its about 2000 more. For this raise you are only getting about 10 - 1 implied odds to hit your set, which isn't normally enough. However, I'd probably call here because I'd expect UTG to have a very strong range and stack off almost all the time, and the other guy calling is good too. If you had less in your stack this would quickly become a terrible call.

                        The guy shoving all in probably doesn't have AA or KK, since he just called the limp raise. When people limp raise it's rarely with the intention of folding pre, so I'd be surprised to see anyone flat here with AA or KK. You still have to call here anyway, although I would be pretty reluctant. The only value hand you beat is QJ, and he is going to have QQ and JJ here a lot. QJ, plus all the draws he could have, plus random spazz factor (its the first hand we've seen him play, so he could be a donk) means you have to call though. QJ really should be unlikely given preflop though.

                        If he is in anyway competent, this is a rough range for him to have

                        Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

                        53,460 games 0.002 secs 26,730,000 games/sec

                        Board: Qc Jh 4h
                        Dead:

                        equity win tie pots won pots tied
                        Hand 0: 53.434% 53.43% 00.00% 28566 0.00 { 44 }
                        Hand 1: 46.566% 46.57% 00.00% 24894 0.00 { QQ-JJ, AhKh, Ah2h, QJs, Th9h, QJo }


                        ---

                        44,550 games 0.001 secs 44,550,000 games/sec

                        Board: Qc Jh 4h
                        Dead:

                        equity win tie pots won pots tied
                        Hand 0: 50.768% 50.77% 00.00% 22617 0.00 { 44 }
                        Hand 1: 49.232% 49.23% 00.00% 21933 0.00 { QQ-JJ, QJs, QJo }

                        I put in QQ and JJ, all the QJ, and some draws, AK and 9T of hearts, and A2h. There are other possible ones but I doubt he calls them pre that much.


                        If he is very tight you are in bad shape.

                        Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

                        23,760 games 0.001 secs 23,760,000 games/sec

                        Board: Qc Jh 4h
                        Dead:

                        equity win tie pots won pots tied
                        Hand 0: 24.066% 24.07% 00.00% 5718 0.00 { 44 }
                        Hand 1: 75.934% 75.93% 00.00% 18042 0.00 { QQ-JJ, QJs }

                        Anyway given the odds you are getting you can't really fold.
                        RTFP

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                          The first call is standard (ish), if you call the limper will probably call with a range that you do brilliantly against, the fact you are out of position matters less with small pairs than any other hand, since you are either going to have an almost unbeatable hand, or a bluff catcher (nothing). I only say ish because its a 6.5bb raise.

                          The second call is much much closer, its about 2000 more. For this raise you are only getting about 10 - 1 implied odds to hit your set, which isn't normally enough. However, I'd probably call here because I'd expect UTG to have a very strong range and stack off almost all the time, and the other guy calling is good too. If you had less in your stack this would quickly become a terrible call.

                          The guy shoving all in probably doesn't have AA or KK, since he just called the limp raise. When people limp raise it's rarely with the intention of folding pre, so I'd be surprised to see anyone flat here with AA or KK. You still have to call here anyway, although I would be pretty reluctant. The only value hand you beat is QJ, and he is going to have QQ and JJ here a lot. QJ, plus all the draws he could have, plus random spazz factor (its the first hand we've seen him play, so he could be a donk) means you have to call though. QJ really should be unlikely given preflop though.

                          If he is in anyway competent, this is a rough range for him to have

                          Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

                          53,460 games 0.002 secs 26,730,000 games/sec

                          Board: Qc Jh 4h
                          Dead:

                          equity win tie pots won pots tied
                          Hand 0: 53.434% 53.43% 00.00% 28566 0.00 { 44 }
                          Hand 1: 46.566% 46.57% 00.00% 24894 0.00 { QQ-JJ, AhKh, Ah2h, QJs, Th9h, QJo }


                          ---

                          44,550 games 0.001 secs 44,550,000 games/sec

                          Board: Qc Jh 4h
                          Dead:

                          equity win tie pots won pots tied
                          Hand 0: 50.768% 50.77% 00.00% 22617 0.00 { 44 }
                          Hand 1: 49.232% 49.23% 00.00% 21933 0.00 { QQ-JJ, QJs, QJo }

                          I put in QQ and JJ, all the QJ, and some draws, AK and 9T of hearts, and A2h. There are other possible ones but I doubt he calls them pre that much.


                          If he is very tight you are in bad shape.

                          Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

                          23,760 games 0.001 secs 23,760,000 games/sec

                          Board: Qc Jh 4h
                          Dead:

                          equity win tie pots won pots tied
                          Hand 0: 24.066% 24.07% 00.00% 5718 0.00 { 44 }
                          Hand 1: 75.934% 75.93% 00.00% 18042 0.00 { QQ-JJ, QJs }

                          Anyway given the odds you are getting you can't really fold.
                          This is close enough to my thinking at the time. Thought the 650 was a standard enough call, wasn't too happy about putting in the extra two, but like you said it was close. I figured I would get a double if I setted up and FWIW after seat 8 shipped and I called, seat 6 put in his chips also with aces so I guess I was right about that at least. Anyway, seat 8 had jacks obviously and I experienced my first ever first hand wipeout in a tournie with blinds longer than twenty mins which gave me plenty of time to run over the hand over and over as there wasn't even a cash game for hours. I kept trying to tell myself I should have found a fold somewhere in the hand, kept second guessing myself. I haven't posted a hand up that I can think of for years but this one really got me thinking. I guess the fact that I had travelled from Limerick to Galway for this tournie and this was my first hand is what was really making me think I should've folded somewhere in the hand, now with this and the other input I think I can put this hand in the past where it belongs as I don't wanna make a habit of folding sets on the flop in plo, never mind texas!!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                            RTFP
                            What does that mean?

                            I mixed up 33 and 44, but it makes no difference, which if you read my post properly you would have realised.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Mormank View Post
                              This is close enough to my thinking at the time. Thought the 650 was a standard enough call, wasn't too happy about putting in the extra two, but like you said it was close. I figured I would get a double if I setted up and FWIW after seat 8 shipped and I called, seat 6 put in his chips also with aces so I guess I was right about that at least. Anyway, seat 8 had jacks obviously and I experienced my first ever first hand wipeout in a tournie with blinds longer than twenty mins which gave me plenty of time to run over the hand over and over as there wasn't even a cash game for hours. I kept trying to tell myself I should have found a fold somewhere in the hand, kept second guessing myself. I haven't posted a hand up that I can think of for years but this one really got me thinking. I guess the fact that I had travelled from Limerick to Galway for this tournie and this was my first hand is what was really making me think I should've folded somewhere in the hand, now with this and the other input I think I can put this hand in the past where it belongs as I don't wanna make a habit of folding sets on the flop in plo, never mind texas!!
                              It's easy to be results orientated after hands like this. To make it better just think about what a terrible call it was with aces, even though he had double the outs you did!

                              Comment


                                #16
                                too early to be playing a set, i like to wait till later stages of tournament before i get it in with a set
                                airport, lol

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by eamonhonda View Post
                                  too early to be playing a set, i like to wait till later stages of tournament before i get it in with a set
                                  You try too hard to be funny

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Don't like either call pre really. As played there's no way I'm folding the flop though. Set over set is a complete cooler. Also, people don't usually just ship 20k into a 7k pot with a set so it's kinda hard to get away from. UL

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Trigger View Post
                                      You try too hard to be funny
                                      ha i was after reading that thread and im hungover, give me a break...
                                      airport, lol

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by KK82 View Post
                                        Don't like either call pre really. As played there's no way I'm folding the flop though. Set over set is a complete cooler. Also, people don't usually just ship 20k into a 7k pot with a set so it's kinda hard to get away from. UL
                                        Given the action it's actually quite reasonable to expect the player to turn over a set. There are almost no other hands he can have, and in his shoes, he knows he is definitely ahead now, but it's such a dangerous board he doesn't mind winning the pretty big pot now, also AA and KK are going to probably call him. I don't think its the best play, but it's rational.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          i know the guy who shoved all in here with JJ.. such a donk.. he always shoves regardless of how much is in the pot.. such bad play its not even funny. i really dont understand this type of poker

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            He just won a 660BB pot - piece of genius.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                              Given the action it's actually quite reasonable to expect the player to turn over a set. There are almost no other hands he can have, and in his shoes, he knows he is definitely ahead now, but it's such a dangerous board he doesn't mind winning the pretty big pot now, also AA and KK are going to probably call him. I don't think its the best play, but it's rational.
                                              I'd put someone on an overpair or AhKh rather than a set as played on the flop. Either way, it's pretty awful. Regardless, he can't fold to an open shove on a flop after setmining pre and hitting his set.
                                              Last edited by KK82; 16-07-12, 23:37.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                I was sure guy who shipped the 20k was the guy who made it 2600.
                                                Id still call but not be over happy with it.
                                                The overcall with the Aces is god awful whats he think 2 of you have aq aq?

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by KK82 View Post
                                                  Don't like either call pre really. As played there's no way I'm folding the flop though. Set over set is a complete cooler. Also, people don't usually just ship 20k into a 7k pot with a set so it's kinda hard to get away from. UL
                                                  Fold for the 650??? Wow, am I that behind the times that I would never consider folding for 6.5 blinds with a pair of 3s whilst playing over 200bbs?? A couple of people have mentioned folding for the 650 now and I think that's just crazy talk!! Is it me? Am I the crazy one? Is folding for 6.5bbs when both players have more than 200bbs actualy something I should be considering in tournament poker??

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                    Given the action it's actually quite reasonable to expect the player to turn over a set. There are almost no other hands he can have, and in his shoes, he knows he is definitely ahead now, but it's such a dangerous board he doesn't mind winning the pretty big pot now, also AA and KK are going to probably call him. I don't think its the best play, but it's rational.
                                                    I certainly wasn't shocked when he flipped his set. However, I think personally the decision made in this hand that is most questionable is probably calling the re raise to 2600 but I really felt that I was gonna double off the aces/kings if I flopped a set.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by SICKPUPPY View Post
                                                      I was sure guy who shipped the 20k was the guy who made it 2600.
                                                      Id still call but not be over happy with it.
                                                      The overcall with the Aces is god awful whats he think 2 of you have aq aq?
                                                      Nah the guy who limp raised checked the flop. I remember cos just before he made it 2600 he made some comment about how the other two of us in the hand "had nothing"" so he was gonna raise us off the hand, which obviously helped me polarize his hand to exactly aces/kings, then he called the two all ins and whilst putting in his chips he pointed at me and said "he has a set anyway"...God, if only the flop came 9 7 3 I could've check raised him all in, shown him my bottom set and still got paid!!!!!!!

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        I would have folded to the 650 70% of the time & to the 3bet 90% of the time I'd say. Interesting to read HJ's thoughts on it, I would've said it's always a fold without really thinking about it.

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Calling both times is fairly justifiable this deep since both villains show a lot of strength at least one villain will help us realise our implied odds the times we flop a set. 2nd time is closer, but in any case to justify your preflop call for 10% of stack you have to stack off when you hit your set 100% of the time so getting it in now
                                                          Last edited by Winning!; 17-07-12, 10:35.
                                                          "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            hi

                                                            if I decide to call 33 pre I would never fold a set ...

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                              The first call is standard (ish), if you call the limper will probably call with a range that you do brilliantly against, the fact you are out of position matters less with small pairs than any other hand, since you are either going to have an almost unbeatable hand, or a bluff catcher (nothing). I only say ish because its a 6.5bb raise.

                                                              The second call is much much closer, its about 2000 more. For this raise you are only getting about 10 - 1 implied odds to hit your set, which isn't normally enough. However, I'd probably call here because I'd expect UTG to have a very strong range and stack off almost all the time, and the other guy calling is good too. If you had less in your stack this would quickly become a terrible call.

                                                              The guy shoving all in probably doesn't have AA or KK, since he just called the limp raise. When people limp raise it's rarely with the intention of folding pre, so I'd be surprised to see anyone flat here with AA or KK. You still have to call here anyway, although I would be pretty reluctant. The only value hand you beat is QJ, and he is going to have QQ and JJ here a lot. QJ, plus all the draws he could have, plus random spazz factor (its the first hand we've seen him play, so he could be a donk) means you have to call though. QJ really should be unlikely given preflop though.

                                                              If he is in anyway competent, this is a rough range for him to have

                                                              Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

                                                              53,460 games 0.002 secs 26,730,000 games/sec

                                                              Board: Qc Jh 4h
                                                              Dead:

                                                              equity win tie pots won pots tied
                                                              Hand 0: 53.434% 53.43% 00.00% 28566 0.00 { 44 }
                                                              Hand 1: 46.566% 46.57% 00.00% 24894 0.00 { QQ-JJ, AhKh, Ah2h, QJs, Th9h, QJo }


                                                              ---

                                                              44,550 games 0.001 secs 44,550,000 games/sec

                                                              Board: Qc Jh 4h
                                                              Dead:

                                                              equity win tie pots won pots tied
                                                              Hand 0: 50.768% 50.77% 00.00% 22617 0.00 { 44 }
                                                              Hand 1: 49.232% 49.23% 00.00% 21933 0.00 { QQ-JJ, QJs, QJo }

                                                              I put in QQ and JJ, all the QJ, and some draws, AK and 9T of hearts, and A2h. There are other possible ones but I doubt he calls them pre that much.


                                                              If he is very tight you are in bad shape.

                                                              Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

                                                              23,760 games 0.001 secs 23,760,000 games/sec

                                                              Board: Qc Jh 4h
                                                              Dead:

                                                              equity win tie pots won pots tied
                                                              Hand 0: 24.066% 24.07% 00.00% 5718 0.00 { 44 }
                                                              Hand 1: 75.934% 75.93% 00.00% 18042 0.00 { QQ-JJ, QJs }

                                                              Anyway given the odds you are getting you can't really fold.

                                                              Not sure I'd totally agree with this. If we give him a tight range of AK and Q's+ then I think the times he misses with AK or else a K or A comes on the flop with Q's or a A when he has K's makes the implied odds less favourable.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by KK82 View Post
                                                                I'd put someone on an overpair or AhKh rather than a set as played on the flop. Either way, it's pretty awful. Regardless, he can't fold to an open shove on a flop after setmining pre and hitting his set.
                                                                a) He is unlikely to have an overpair for reasons already stated
                                                                b) It isn't awful, if you look at the stacks any reasonable bet is almost pot committing anyway, so there actually isn't a whole lot of difference (utgs range is pretty much overpairs which are calling, or AK which is folding to any bet), plus if you look through this thread you will see loads of comments about how no-one shoves sets there, so its good for deception. Finally the board is so scary if he bets small AA or KK may just call and fold a bad turn. It's not optimal, but it's not awful, just unusual, a distinction people fail to make quite a bit.

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by Mormank View Post
                                                                  Fold for the 650??? Wow, am I that behind the times that I would never consider folding for 6.5 blinds with a pair of 3s whilst playing over 200bbs?? A couple of people have mentioned folding for the 650 now and I think that's just crazy talk!! Is it me? Am I the crazy one? Is folding for 6.5bbs when both players have more than 200bbs actualy something I should be considering in tournament poker??
                                                                  Out of position, heads up, unless the guy is bad its probably a significantly losing play. Think about how often you will end up folding, and how hard it will be to win a big pot against a normal range.

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by Teddie View Post
                                                                    Not sure I'd totally agree with this. If we give him a tight range of AK and Q's+ then I think the times he misses with AK or else a K or A comes on the flop with Q's or a A when he has K's makes the implied odds less favourable.
                                                                    What exactly don't you agree with? Whatever the limp reraisers range is, it's usually pretty tight. It's probably AA, KK, AK, QQ significantly weighted towards AA. In any case your point is irrelevant, I never said he was always stacking off, just that a player whose range is so strong is far more likely to stack off than the range just an normal opening represents. AK will also normally fire a cbet so and sometimes call all in unimproved.

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                      Out of position, heads up, unless the guy is bad its probably a significantly losing play. Think about how often you will end up folding, and how hard it will be to win a big pot against a normal range.
                                                                      Ya I guess. So how high would the pair need to be in that spot before calling the 650 stops being a significantly losing play? I mean, sure, 6.5bbs was a big raise even with the stacks the way they were. I guess from my point of view there was an element of wanting to play my first hand at the table and wanting people to think I was a loose player from the get go...the joke was on me!!

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by Mormank View Post
                                                                        Ya I guess. So how high would the pair need to be in that spot before calling the 650 stops being a significantly losing play? I mean, sure, 6.5bbs was a big raise even with the stacks the way they were. I guess from my point of view there was an element of wanting to play my first hand at the table and wanting people to think I was a loose player from the get go...the joke was on me!!
                                                                        You should be looking for have 15-20 times the raise in your stack. If you don't have that, it's burning money.

                                                                        Calling away doesn't make you that loose, it just makes you a station.

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                          What exactly don't you agree with? Whatever the limp reraisers range is, it's usually pretty tight. It's probably AA, KK, AK, QQ significantly weighted towards AA. In any case your point is irrelevant, I never said he was always stacking off, just that a player whose range is so strong is far more likely to stack off than the range just an normal opening represents. AK will also normally fire a cbet so and sometimes call all in unimproved.


                                                                          You said he is stacking off almost all of the time, that is the part I disagree with.

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                                                                            You should be looking for have 15-20 times the raise in your stack. If you don't have that, it's burning money.

                                                                            Calling away doesn't make you that loose, it just makes you a station.
                                                                            15-20? I thought it was roughly 10.
                                                                            Making loose calls doesn't make you loose? Anyway maybe I used the wrong word then, but I just meant I wanted a loose image, you know, to help get me paid when I flop bottom set etc...

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by Mormank View Post
                                                                              15-20? I thought it was roughly 10.
                                                                              Making loose calls doesn't make you loose? Anyway maybe I used the wrong word then, but I just meant I wanted a loose image, you know, to help get me paid when I flop bottom set etc...
                                                                              It's 8/1 we hit our set...we then need to account for the times we don't get paid off when we do flop our set so the price we need is higher.
                                                                              Pining for Wa'erford

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by sligboi View Post
                                                                                It's 8/1 we hit our set...we then need to account for the times we don't get paid off when we do flop our set so the price we need is higher.
                                                                                Also the times we get set over setted as happened here which almost always proves fatal to our tournament.

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by sligboi View Post
                                                                                  It's 8/1 we hit our set...we then need to account for the times we don't get paid off when we do flop our set so the price we need is higher.
                                                                                  Aha, ok, so the more sure we are that we will get the double if we hit our set the less of a price we need right?

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    I have not read the entire thread, but the consensus from the first few replies seems to be that a snap call is in order on the flop...

                                                                                    Really?


                                                                                    Leave aside the preflop action..

                                                                                    People are happy to snap off nearly 200BB with bottom set at a very eaarly stage in the tournament?

                                                                                    It's quite possible - even likely - that JJ or QQ is in play. Even if you're up against AhKh, do you want to put your tourney on the line as a not-too-comfortable favourite in a race? Sure, you're getting the odds to call against AhKh, but that's not really the point AFAIC.

                                                                                    I'm not saying I'd definitely fold, but I'd certainly take a while to call, and not be too pleased...

                                                                                    Anyone? Am I going mad or is the tournament play of IPBers very questionable???

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                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      You realise there's about 8k in the pot right? Leaving us an spr < 3, and a set.. Folding is criminal having got this far
                                                                                      "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

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                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by loopers View Post
                                                                                        . Even if you're up against AhKh, do you want to put your tourney on the line as a not-too-comfortable favourite in a race? Sure, you're getting the odds to call against AhKh, but that's not really the point AFAIC.
                                                                                        Someone shoot me

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                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                                          Someone shoot me
                                                                                          Ok, I didn't phrase what I wanted to express very well there, but if you could elaborate with your criticism, it'd be a lot more helpful.

                                                                                          The idea I'm trying to get across is that there's more involved in your tournament decisions than simply saying "I'm favourite, let's get it in".

                                                                                          Here, a player who's shown considerable strength has shoved the flop. There is reason to believe the other player might call behind you(holding AA or KK he'll call a decent-large % of the time) . You have bottom set.

                                                                                          If the money goes in 3-way (NFD, KK and your set) you're ~flipping. Even 2 way, you're putting a massive stack on the line with an edge that's pretty marginal. (mental maths, fairly approx). That's assuming you're favourite. If we include JJ, QQ as well as NFD and AA/KK, it's worse.

                                                                                          You can fold and have a humongous stack left. There's a long tourney to play and more spots to get chips will come up.

                                                                                          You can say "I was getting odds, money was always going in" or "set over set is a cooler" if you want. I'm just saying you don't have to get the money in. Tournament poker's about survival primarily, profitable decisions in the longterm a (fairly distant) second...

                                                                                          As the Hiphopopotamous would say... "Be more constructive with your feedback!"

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                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Tournaments aren't about survival, they are about poker.

                                                                                            In this hand there's 8k in the pot. If you were sure it's a flip, and you folded, you are giving away almost a quarter of a starting stack in equity by folding. That's terrible poker.

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                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              Originally posted by loopers View Post
                                                                                              I have not read the entire thread, but the consensus from the first few replies seems to be that a snap call is in order on the flop...

                                                                                              Really?


                                                                                              Leave aside the preflop action..

                                                                                              People are happy to snap off nearly 200BB with bottom set at a very eaarly stage in the tournament?

                                                                                              It's quite possible - even likely - that JJ or QQ is in play. Even if you're up against AhKh, do you want to put your tourney on the line as a not-too-comfortable favourite in a race? Sure, you're getting the odds to call against AhKh, but that's not really the point AFAIC.

                                                                                              I'm not saying I'd definitely fold, but I'd certainly take a while to call, and not be too pleased...

                                                                                              Anyone? Am I going mad or is the tournament play of IPBers very questionable???


                                                                                              With all due respect, the preflop action is key to this particular hand so it shouldn't really be left aside.....

                                                                                              The guy has committed 12 or 13% of his stack in order to set mine, probably knowing he's up against overpairs....now that he's hit his set, he can't fold....why call off over 10% of your stack to set mine and then start second guessing yourself once you've hit your set.....if you think you might not like your flopped set because there's also paint there, then just don't call pre-flop...

                                                                                              I think I find the fold here pre-flop to be honest, pray that I don't see a three on the flop, nearly get sick in my seat when I do see the three...and then thank god when I see I was up against an overset if I had have called!

                                                                                              Maybe i'm totally off, just my tupence worth...

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                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                I don't follow the logic that because you called preflop you have to call now, each action is independent.

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                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                                                  I don't follow the logic that because you called preflop you have to call now, each action is independent.

                                                                                                  Ok but why call pre-flop then if you're not goin to call now you've hit your set...?

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                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    Originally posted by Delooners View Post
                                                                                                    Ok but why call pre-flop then if you're not goin to call now you've hit your set...?
                                                                                                    I don't even know what this means. Things change. You get further information on which to base your decisions. Say you're heading out for the night hoping to get lucky. You start talking to a girl and things are going well, you're about to go home with her but then a friend whispers in your ear "She's a dude". You have a look at her adams apple and decide he is right. Do you go home with him just because that was your original intention?

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                                                                                                      #51
                                                                                                      Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                                                      I don't even know what this means. Things change. You get further information on which to base your decisions. Say you're heading out for the night hoping to get lucky. You start talking to a girl and things are going well, you're about to go home with her but then a friend whispers in your ear "She's a dude". You have a look at her adams apple and decide he is right. Do you go home with him just because that was your original intention?

                                                                                                      Haha fair point......but I tend to check out the adams apple before I start talking!!

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                                                                                                        #52
                                                                                                        Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                                                        I don't even know what this means. Things change. You get further information on which to base your decisions. Say you're heading out for the night hoping to get lucky. You start talking to a girl and things are going well, you're about to go home with her but then a friend whispers in your ear "She's a dude". You have a look at her adams apple and decide he is right. Do you go home with him just because that was your original intention?
                                                                                                        I do see your point but as played can you give me a flop scenario where I don't get it in? Barring a miraculous check around, in which case I'm still probably gettin it in most turns here...

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                                                                                                          #53
                                                                                                          Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                                                          I don't even know what this means. Things change. You get further information on which to base your decisions. Say you're heading out for the night hoping to get lucky. You start talking to a girl and things are going well, you're about to go home with her but then a friend whispers in your ear "She's a dude". You have a look at her adams apple and decide he is right. Do you go home with him just because that was your original intention?
                                                                                                          ...
                                                                                                          Last edited by Lplated; 19-07-12, 13:12. Reason: Because shouldn't post when clearing hangover ...

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                                                                                                            #54
                                                                                                            Originally posted by Mormank View Post
                                                                                                            I do see your point but as played can you give me a flop scenario where I don't get it in? Barring a miraculous check around, in which case I'm still probably gettin it in most turns here...
                                                                                                            Yeah in this case its unlikely you are ever folding, but I was just making the point that the decisions are still independent

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                                                                                                              #55
                                                                                                              Originally posted by loopers View Post

                                                                                                              Anyone? Am I going mad or is the tournament play of IPBers very questionable???
                                                                                                              Set-mine to fold FTW

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                                                                                                                #56
                                                                                                                Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                                                                Yeah in this case its unlikely you are ever folding, but I was just making the point that the decisions are still independent
                                                                                                                Right. Actualy I'm glad you said that. I was having a conversation with my friend yesterday about a hand that came up for discussion in his tournament review group. Basically he had jacks and raised pre from the button. Flop queen high. Check check. Villain bets turn, we call. Villain bets river, we call. Pretty standard stuff. Anyway my friend made the comment that if you call the turn bet and the river blanks you must call the river bet 100% of the time to which I replied syaing that I would 95% of the time but that sometimes things happen that can change the 'standard' move. Anyway, basic point is the same I think.

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