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25e f/o Voodoo

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    25e f/o Voodoo

    Ok, I'm not a live player, and trying to get a better understanding of stack sizes live.

    Hand was played on final table of the tuesday night tournament in Voodoo.

    Was 5 handed, blinds 1500/3000.

    Hero utg (66k)
    C/O (55k)- seen him play quite regulary and definitely capable of restealing.
    Button (80k)- never seen him play before, uber nit, only showed aces and ace queen since final table started.
    SB- (27k) - Havn't played with him before, but my mate final tabled EOM with him at the fitz and was playing cash with him before hand, good player and knows I'm opening wide enough, commented on it once or twice.
    BB- (42k) - Know the lad well and was telling me how broke he is and can tell the money means loads to him, even though it isn't much. Gave me 7/8 walks from sb and just player SUPER nitty!!

    There was a weird dynamic at the table aswell, because I had litreally two minutes earlier announced I didn't understand stack sizes live at all.

    Hero utg raises to 7500- 10(d) 7(d)
    C/0- folds
    Button- folds
    SB - moves all in for (27k)
    BB- folds

    (37k) in the middle, (19.5k) to call.

    I snap online, I know the right play was to fold pf, but ignoring that, what should I do know, is it that much different live?

    I ran a reasonable range through poker stove, and I've 36.18% equity against this particular player I think, but again I could be completely wrong with ranges live.
    Suicidal twin kills sister by mistake!

    #2
    Welcome to the forum Il comment on the hand after everyone else gets a go

    Comment


      #3
      I'd fold as i imagine your hardly ever ahead here. Can you explain re comment on stack sizes online/live? i don't understand the difference.

      Personally wouldnt be opening that light utg 5 handed. You cant say to fold preflop was right play and ignore that, its obviously the biggest mistake in the hand

      Comment


        #4
        The open is fine imo with a nit on the button and in the bb.
        Fine 5 handed anyway.

        Id fold to the shove.
        Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
        I like this heat - some proper music innit.
        None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

        Comment


          #5
          First, welcome to the forum. Please don't take any criticism personally, it is all meant with the best of intentions.

          OK, my thoughts.

          1. What are talking about re: stack sizes "live"? There is no material difference with online other than online you can make far more exact bet sizes because you are not constricted by the chip denominations.

          2. There is no point in saying "I know doing X was bad, but ignoring that..." and then asking for advice. The biggest mistake in this hand is pre-flop. The best piece of advice anyone can give you here is to not get yourself into these situations by raising hands like this UTG 5 handed.

          3. Given we are at 5 left in the tourney and you are definitely behind it is probably a fold but I am sure there are other considerations regarding relative stack sizes and prize money to take account of at this stage.
          You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
          World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011

          Comment


            #6
            Preflop is not a mistake.
            Its a pretty standard open for a lot of people id imagine especially how given how tight the table is playing.

            You can obv fold if you want but opening is not a mistake.
            Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
            I like this heat - some proper music innit.
            None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

            Comment


              #7
              FWIW, I think the open is fine, and its now definitely a fold.

              I do think that you can fold pre or open, either is fine.

              Stack sizes could be easier if you just think of it in bbs,
              utg - 22
              co - ~18
              btn - ~27
              sb - 9
              bb - 14

              With this in mind, I don't think it is worth your while making the call this loose here, as taking a the 6.5extra bb hit to your stack will put you as shortest at the table, and you are at best flipping with a small pair, more likely behind a big ace though.

              What problems do you have with stack sizes live vs online? That you don't have actual numbers given to you? Trouble counting chips?

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Starvin Marvin View Post
                Preflop is not a mistake.
                Its a pretty standard open for a lot of people id imagine especially how given how tight the table is playing.

                You can obv fold if you want but opening is not a mistake.
                Fair enough, i just personally wouldn't open that light given the stacks

                Comment


                  #9
                  I think the best advise you can give on these things is saying what were you trying to acomplish with that raise UTG?

                  I think its a bad open utg and you are always then oop and behind. You can fold now and pick your spots better imo.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Woot, im the nitty broke guy on the BB.

                    Ill comment on the hand later, id also like topoint out that during the duration of the tournament i never said "how broke i was" it was the night before playing drunk blind omaha i may have spilled a bit on my financial situation.

                    Its not really important to add such details in a hand description either considering i wasnt involved in the hand.


                    Ohh and welcome to the forum! Glad ya signed up
                    Last edited by BrianByrne; 22-07-10, 15:56.
                    Disaster - Dreamcrusher

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by ghostface ste View Post
                      Fair enough, i just personally wouldn't open that light given the stacks
                      Yeah its a matter of personal preference and playing styles i guess but it certainly cant be classed as a "mistake" imo.


                      Originally posted by MegaSin View Post
                      I think the best advise you can give on these things is saying what were you trying to acomplish with that raise UTG?

                      I think its a bad open utg and you are always then oop and behind. You can fold now and pick your spots better imo.
                      You are trying to steal the blinds and will be successful a ton of the time.
                      Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                      I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                      None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by BrianByrne View Post
                        Woot, im the nitty broke guy on the BB.

                        Ill comment on the hand later, id also like topoint out that during the duration of the tournament i never said "how broke i was" it was the night before playing drunk blind omaha i may have spilled a bit on my financial situation.

                        Its not really important to add such details in a hand description either considering i wasnt involved in the hand.


                        Ohh and welcome to the forum! Glad ya signed up
                        Brian didn't mean any offence, just you were saying the blind omaha made a difference in the blind omaha so I assumed a 200e jump made a big difference.

                        The reason I mentioned you with so much detail was because, I was saying I expected the raise to get through a high % of the time.
                        Last edited by easywithaces; 22-07-10, 16:14.
                        Suicidal twin kills sister by mistake!

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by ghostface ste View Post
                          I'd fold as i imagine your hardly ever ahead here. Can you explain re comment on stack sizes online/live? i don't understand the difference.

                          Personally wouldnt be opening that light utg 5 handed. You cant say to fold preflop was right play and ignore that, its obviously the biggest mistake in the hand
                          I just feel that live play is more nitty and while I'm getting the right to call against what I feel his range is, I could be completely wrong. I tried posting the poker stove file but can't do it. Maybe I should say I don't understand the shoving range in comparsion to stack sizes live, like online with anything under 20bb, I'm very rarely planning on raise folding, where from what I've seen live this seems totally exceptable.
                          Suicidal twin kills sister by mistake!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            What's wrong with the open exactly? Especially given the perceived tight player in the BB.

                            Getting 2/1 on a call, and if you're equity is right, then it's probably a call. Live players usually shove tight ranges though, so maybe it's off, I don't know.

                            If we lose we still have 40k and plenty of chances to steal more blinds from the tight players.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Kayroo View Post
                              First, welcome to the forum. Please don't take any criticism personally, it is all meant with the best of intentions.

                              OK, my thoughts.

                              1. What are talking about re: stack sizes "live"? There is no material difference with online other than online you can make far more exact bet sizes because you are not constricted by the chip denominations.

                              2. There is no point in saying "I know doing X was bad, but ignoring that..." and then asking for advice. The biggest mistake in this hand is pre-flop. The best piece of advice anyone can give you here is to not get yourself into these situations by raising hands like this UTG 5 handed.

                              3. Given we are at 5 left in the tourney and you are definitely behind it is probably a fold but I am sure there are other considerations regarding relative stack sizes and prize money to take account of at this stage.
                              I know I'm doing this all wrong and should have quoted all the replys in one message but only starting and don't know how to, anyway, I raised planning on taking down the blinds, the small blind in my opion was the only troublesome stack, where I couldn't happily raise fold. If anyone else ships it, I feel I can easily fold and move on to the next hand but with the price I'm getting I feel I'm meant to call. And I never expect to be ahead when he moves all in, just giving what I perceive his range to be I feel I'm going to win 1/3. And I know you can also say what happens if someone flats you and your out of position and whiff the flop, but seriously it just wasn't happening at the table. The only flops been seen where blind on blind.
                              Last edited by easywithaces; 22-07-10, 16:16.
                              Suicidal twin kills sister by mistake!

                              Comment


                                #16
                                I'd fold pre with 22 bb's and would try to avoid playing speculative hands with your stack size, despite being chip leader. Everybody else is short and obviously a decent chance they'll re shove, despite the 2 nits. There's far better situations to use that stack size.

                                I'd call with 10 7 if I was getting exactly 2/1 but I'm not so would fold

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Moneymaker View Post
                                  What's wrong with the open exactly? Especially given the perceived tight player in the BB.

                                  Getting 2/1 on a call, and if you're equity is right, then it's probably a call. Live players usually shove tight ranges though, so maybe it's off, I don't know.

                                  If we lose we still have 40k and plenty of chances to steal more blinds from the tight players.
                                  It was Bubbleking so 10high could be ahead here

                                  On serious note fold pre as said, u know that doe.
                                  ''Oh my god, I'm dropping shit like a pigeon
                                  I hope you're listening, smacking babies at their christening''

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Given the fact that I have no fold equity my holding here is a lot stronger than what it would be if I was open shoving

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by tiago View Post
                                      I'd fold pre with 22 bb's and would try to avoid playing speculative hands with your stack size, despite being chip leader. Everybody else is short and obviously a decent chance they'll re shove, despite the 2 nits. There's far better situations to use that stack size.

                                      I'd call with 10 7 if I was getting exactly 2/1 but I'm not so would fold
                                      Its shove or fold time, not many people are going to be peeling flops so your hand doesnt matter so much.

                                      Hes not the chip leader and there is only 1 noticeably short stack, the rest are pretty close.

                                      Like what better situations? The best way to use your stack here is by opening as many hands as possible when the table is so tight, this is for sure a good spot to open.

                                      So if there was 1 small blind more in the middle you call??
                                      Doesnt make much difference, its about 2% more equity.
                                      BK's range is probably wide enough that its close to a call but id rather preserve chips here and continue to steal from the nits than call in whats more than likely a 0ev spot.
                                      Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                                      I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                                      None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Now that I know the villain is BK it's an insta call as you will surely draw out on him.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Sorry didn't see that he was 2nd in chips not chip leader. Anyway there is tones of better situations to play that stack eg open shoving blind on blind if you have blind covered or open shoving button if you have the blinds covered, your putting way more pressure on the short stacks this way. You really shouldn't be opening with 22 bb's unless you plan on calling a shove, your just leaking chips.

                                          Wasn't just the 2% equity that wouldn't make me call, as Moneymaker has said live plyers are re shoving pretty strong. Also I dont like calling off half of my chips with 10 7 (which relates back to original point about opening with this stack size in the first place)

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by tiago View Post
                                            Sorry didn't see that he was 2nd in chips not chip leader. Anyway there is tones of better situations to play that stack eg open shoving blind on blind if you have blind covered or open shoving button if you have the blinds covered, your putting way more pressure on the short stacks this way. You really shouldn't be opening with 22 bb's unless you plan on calling a shove, your just leaking chips.

                                            Wasn't just the 2% equity that wouldn't make me call, as Moneymaker has said live plyers are re shoving pretty strong. Also I dont like calling off half of my chips with 10 7 (which relates back to original point about opening with this stack size in the first place)
                                            Those are also good spots, we can take advantage of all these situations though and dont have to pick and choose.

                                            You can certainly open to 2.3x and be folding to shoves from any of the other stacks. You are not leaking chips because you will be picking up the blinds a ton when people fold and it is going to be profitable.
                                            If you are only opening hands strong enough to call shoves with thats a pretty narrow range and you will be blinded down fairly rapidly.

                                            With 2 tight players id be opening as often as i can and my cards wouldnt really matter much.
                                            Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                                            I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                                            None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Eh call?

                                              The open is probably fine but I prefer folding.

                                              You need 34.2%. I have no doubt that villain would shove wider than 66+,A8s+,KTs+,QJs,A9o+,KJo+, which is what you need to call, and plus, nobody is going to shove on you light again if they know you are just gonna call!
                                              Last edited by TommyGunne; 22-07-10, 21:46.
                                              Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                ok might as well throw in my tuppence worth here since I was in the hand.

                                                first of all the raise pre flop - I think it was fine because Button and BB were so tight you can easily pick up the blinds there and move on. Fwiw though usually at this stage of the tourney I would just fold that hand because you get 3bet a lot (this is assuming that stacks were deeper and there is a little more play)

                                                I think it is easy to say its a fold in retrospect but my range for pushing there is any pair, most Aces and a lot of good Kings. It would be wider but I know I have very little fold equity so I need to have a semi decent hand to shove there. against that range your not that big of a dog so I think a call is fine

                                                However

                                                Imo losing that call meant more to your stack than winning it if you know what I mean - if you fold there you have 55k and are still in a strong position. if you lose you get short stacked and the blinds are massive.

                                                Basically what im saying is that risk did not equal reward on the call in terms of the tounament so its probably a fold even though mathematically its a call.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                                                  ok might as well throw in my tuppence worth here since I was in the hand.

                                                  first of all the raise pre flop - I think it was fine because Button and BB were so tight you can easily pick up the blinds there and move on. Fwiw though usually at this stage of the tourney I would just fold that hand because you get 3bet a lot (this is assuming that stacks were deeper and there is a little more play)

                                                  I think it is easy to say its a fold in retrospect but my range for pushing there is any pair, most Aces and a lot of good Kings. It would be wider but I know I have very little fold equity so I need to have a semi decent hand to shove there. against that range your not that big of a dog so I think a call is fine

                                                  However

                                                  Imo losing that call meant more to your stack than winning it if you know what I mean - if you fold there you have 55k and are still in a strong position. if you lose you get short stacked and the blinds are massive.

                                                  Basically what im saying is that risk did not equal reward on the call in terms of the tounament so its probably a fold even though mathematically its a call.
                                                  Its too good a spot to pass up when you are still left with 10bbs or so.
                                                  Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
                                                    Its too good a spot to pass up when you are still left with 10bbs or so.
                                                    QFT

                                                    especially when Im the donk pushing

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by easywithaces View Post
                                                      Ok, I'm not a live player, and trying to get a better understanding of stack sizes live.

                                                      Hand was played on final table of the tuesday night tournament in Voodoo.

                                                      Was 5 handed, blinds 1500/3000.

                                                      Hero utg (66k)
                                                      C/O (55k)- seen him play quite regulary and definitely capable of restealing.
                                                      Button (80k)- never seen him play before, uber nit, only showed aces and ace queen since final table started.
                                                      SB- (27k) - Havn't played with him before, but my mate final tabled EOM with him at the fitz and was playing cash with him before hand, good player and knows I'm opening wide enough, commented on it once or twice.
                                                      BB- (42k) - Know the lad well and was telling me how broke he is and can tell the money means loads to him, even though it isn't much. Gave me 7/8 walks from sb and just player SUPER nitty!!

                                                      There was a weird dynamic at the table aswell, because I had litreally two minutes earlier announced I didn't understand stack sizes live at all.

                                                      Hero utg raises to 7500- 10(d) 7(d)
                                                      C/0- folds
                                                      Button- folds
                                                      SB - moves all in for (27k)
                                                      BB- folds

                                                      (37k) in the middle, (19.5k) to call.

                                                      I snap online, I know the right play was to fold pf, but ignoring that, what should I do know, is it that much different live?

                                                      I ran a reasonable range through poker stove, and I've 36.18% equity against this particular player I think, but again I could be completely wrong with ranges live.
                                                      Originally posted by Starvin Marvin View Post
                                                      The open is fine imo with a nit on the button and in the bb.
                                                      Fine 5 handed anyway.

                                                      Id fold to the shove.

                                                      Really your problem is not whether you call or fold but that you opened a hand a didnt have a plan for it, All you taught was i'll open this annd take the blinds, you didnt have any idea what to do if someone played back, this is the really problem, the above is just the result of your underlying condition!


                                                      Originally posted by emmet02 View Post
                                                      FWIW, I think the open is fine, and its now definitely a fold.

                                                      I do think that you can fold pre or open, either is fine.

                                                      Stack sizes could be easier if you just think of it in bbs,
                                                      utg - 22
                                                      co - ~18
                                                      btn - ~27
                                                      sb - 9
                                                      bb - 14

                                                      With this in mind, I don't think it is worth your while making the call this loose here, as taking a the 6.5extra bb hit to your stack will put you as shortest at the table, and you are at best flipping with a small pair, more likely behind a big ace though.

                                                      What problems do you have with stack sizes live vs online? That you don't have actual numbers given to you? Trouble counting chips?
                                                      Above in bold is how you should be looking at the table, before opening or playing any hand you should have decided what to do if in each case that A) someone raises you B) someone call or C) someone shove's, The fact that you didnt have a plan or think about this is why you should never open a hand this light from that position


                                                      Originally posted by Starvin Marvin View Post
                                                      Yeah its a matter of personal preference and playing styles i guess but it certainly cant be classed as a "mistake" imo.

                                                      You are trying to steal the blinds and will be successful a ton of the time.
                                                      In the Op he delcare's that the remaining 5 players are solid enough be it a little nitty but solid enough, which mean..... You will steal nothing but another round of the table to maintain your current chip level, the table is really to shallow not to have this classed as a mistake, this of course is my felling on the subject and i am anything but a nit when it come's to raising hands in this position, but given the stack size and player's at the table i would never open this light if im not going to call, given im just going to get snap shoved on a lot of the time, which makes this a poor spot

                                                      my 2 cents

                                                      Cheers Philip

                                                      Comment

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