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Really strange spot vs massive fish

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    Really strange spot vs massive fish

    Interested to know peoples calling ranges here as I've discussed it with a friend and still have no definite range.

    Tourney's a €20 4max tourney deep structure on Winamax.

    Average in tourney is 160k at 2000/4000. 33 players left with 27 paid.

    History: First hand after I'v been moved to the new table its folded to me on the button I min open KK playing 300k , villain playing 750k snap shoves , I call and he's 76 and I double.

    Villain then proceeds to shove 80% of hands for the next 40ish hands with little to no resistance from the two other short stacks (20-30 bb stacks) and I'v folded to all his shoves so far. His play is so erratic that he's folded small blinds in limped pots but any involvement is a shove despite the fact that he's second in chips with the only player now covering being me.

    Hand in question, villain has rebuilt to 490k and I cover with 570k. We are by far the 2 biggest stacks with average being 160k. 1st place is €940 with 27th getting €34 (for what it's worth the min cash is not important to me).

    Two short stacks fold and I complete the sb, villain shoves. What's our calling range here given history? I had limp folded and opened/folded 3/4 times since the KK hand.

    This is villains sharkscope and i had this info available after the KK hand.

    Track your poker statistics and avoid the sharks. SharkScope is the most complete database of poker tournament results available and covers virtually all online poker sites.

    #2
    I dont think we can even risk calling even with AKs here. Although it seems like a great spot, a lot of the time we could be facing a 60:40 for 240bb. Super high varience, and could leave you half the average.
    Plenty of play left between you, so i think tighten up and pick a better spot. I think JJ+ here?

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by swaine55 View Post
      I dont think we can even risk calling even with AKs here. Although it seems like a great spot, a lot of the time we could be facing a 60:40 for 240bb. Super high varience, and could leave you half the average.
      Plenty of play left between you, so i think tighten up and pick a better spot. I think JJ+ here?
      Lol@ folding aks here seriously?

      Id be calling 88+ a10s+ even KQ here.

      Comment


        #4
        If hes actually shoved 80% which is over 3 times an orbit 4handed (had to write that as it just seems absurd) then id prob call like 77+ maybe 66, much prefare pairs to Ax hands anyway, maybe tighter on that end of it, couldnt see myself folding AQ so guess AJ is debateable. Still have 20bb if you lose and if you win your in great shape to win. I wish i knew more about calling ranges too i feel its where i make most of my mistakes. Though more so in sats and normal bubble spots as opposed to these random spots tat wont come up that often.

        Wug Winning! ?

        Comment


          #5
          any single Ax
          any pair >5's
          kq and possibly even kj

          snappidy doo daw
          Go big or go homeless.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by AKQJ10 View Post
            If hes actually shoved 80% which is over 3 times an orbit 4handed (had to write that as it just seems absurd) then id prob call like 77+ maybe 66, much prefare pairs to Ax hands anyway, maybe tighter on that end of it, couldnt see myself folding AQ so guess AJ is debateable. Still have 20bb if you lose and if you win your in great shape to win. I wish i knew more about calling ranges too i feel its where i make most of my mistakes. Though more so in sats and normal bubble spots as opposed to these random spots tat wont come up that often.

            Wug Winning! ?
            I'm not exaggerating the 80%, he really was that bad as his sharkscope suggests (think it's the single biggest loser at ABI of $10 I'v seen). Fwiw my calling range is wider at the moment.

            Also interested to know if peoples calling ranges widen here if it's a massively field/top heavey game like the big 11 or something when you know you have a real shot at ft'ing if you win and if so calling ranges then?, considering min cash means nothing there.

            Comment


              #7
              Well I'm only ever limping like this if I'm calling a shove first off based on the history.

              2nd thing is that you are in a great position in the tournament and there really is no point getting it all in here on a 60:40 or marginally better.

              For that reason I'm only ever limping here with monsters in this spot, like JJ, QQ, KK, AA.

              Im raising pretty much all my other premiums to raising hands from the SB and folding to a jam.

              If he is this bad we dont need to effectively race.

              After all we are over 140BBs deep here, why race it off and lose your hard work?
              Last edited by Irisheman; 23-10-13, 19:10. Reason: Added detail

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Irisheman View Post
                Well I'm only ever limping like this if I'm calling a shove first off based on the history.

                2nd thing is that you are in a great position in the tournament and there really is no point getting it all in here on a 60:40 or marginally better.

                For that reason I'm only ever limping here with monsters in this spot, like JJ, QQ, KK, AA.

                Im raising pretty much all my other premiums to raising hands from the SB and folding to a jam.

                If he is this bad we dont need to effectively race
                My only point here would be that this is 4max. Since the KK hand iv already bled about 75k folding. If JJ+ (minus AK) is your calling range you'll quickly be over taken by this fish as chip leader and could be oop to this guy for the night and I don't see his play changing.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Must admit didnt see that it was 4 max but your still very deep. I'll probably limp call off the SB with AK AA KK QQ JJ 1010. Raise fold to a jam with everything else. His graph is impressive ;-)

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Irisheman View Post
                    Well I'm only ever limping like this if I'm calling a shove first off based on the history.

                    2nd thing is that you are in a great position in the tournament and there really is no point getting it all in here on a 60:40 or marginally better.
                    No point getting it in here?
                    There's 33 people left and the bubble hasn't burst yet. The point is to pick up some easy chips before he loses them all.

                    For that reason I'm only ever limping here with monsters in this spot, like JJ, QQ, KK, AA.

                    Im raising pretty much all my other premiums to raising hands from the SB and folding to a jam.
                    The guy is shoving 80% of hands, if you are going fold your entire raising range you'd be better off open folding.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by AKQJ10 View Post
                      If hes actually shoved 80% which is over 3 times an orbit 4handed (had to write that as it just seems absurd) then id prob call like 77+ maybe 66, much prefare pairs to Ax hands anyway, maybe tighter on that end of it, couldnt see myself folding AQ so guess AJ is debateable. Still have 20bb if you lose and if you win your in great shape to win. I wish i knew more about calling ranges too i feel its where i make most of my mistakes. Though more so in sats and normal bubble spots as opposed to these random spots tat wont come up that often.

                      Wug Winning! ?
                      If 66 is a call, then AJo is a call too. And ATo as well. If we have him shoving ~80% as all pairs, all suited cards, Jxo+, T6o+, 85o+, 75o+, 65o+, 54o+ then they have pretty much the same equity of 60-62%. The 66 is actually slightly on the lower side of that. At first I was thinking our range should be 88+ AJo+ but more than happy with 60%+ and win all the chippies.

                      edit: you could argue for a tighter range since we're so deep and the top 2 stacks(the blinds are still 2/4k yeah?). We can prob wait for a bigger % hand as he'll just keep doing the same. But high variance is fun!
                      Last edited by 72over; 24-10-13, 01:54.
                      It's all an illusion

                      Comment


                        #12
                        xxx,utzzyc


                        Edit: must have posted in my pocket.. nothing to add really, the wider you call the higher the variance, so ask yourself one question...Do you feel lucky, punk?
                        Last edited by Caf; 24-10-13, 10:19.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I'd continue to limp/fold every hand that the other 2 players aren't involved in to make sure he kept shoving and then call with 88+ and AJ+ and be happy with it. Shouldn't take too long to find one of those hands vs him.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Lol hand. Probably like 88+,AJs+,AQo+. You could make a strong case for calling a bit wider to exploit preflop edges since this guy will make it impossible to realise any postflop, and it's tough to find a top 5% hand.
                            "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I'v been known to make mistakes with ranges against fish in the more usual spot of opening and weak villains shoving 30-40 bbs so was just interested to know peoples ranges.

                              This particular hand I called it off with A8s and immediately hated myself. He had A4o and i flopped an 8 and cruised to the ft as chipleader. Still think A10 is really close though given the fact I could have this guy to my left for the night if I continue letting him away with it and given that the 2 shorties have shown their happy to fold another 6 places to min cash. The 4 max dynamic makes a player like this accumulate so many chips quickly and puts us in a horrible position later given stacks.

                              Think it's an interesting spot vs other fishy big stacks on bubbles in top heavy payouts where those fish are intent on constantly playing big pots against us. I guess given the top heavy nature I like to gambool a bit more than might be the norm which is probably bad.

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