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    Deep and out of position 50 1

    Villain is good, not much history. I have $230 and villain covers. He probably sees me as very solid. These games are pretty tight.

    I make it 3 utg with KK. Villain utg + 1 makes it 9. I call.

    Flop is 2 3 5 with two diamonds. I check call 11

    Turn is the four of diamonds. I have the Kd. I check he bets 21, I make it 63

    Good, bad indifferent?

    #2
    Not a huge cash player but out of curiosity why the flat call pre?

    Comment


      #3
      Several

      First we are 200bbs deep

      Second we are in the two tightest positions. Most people have no light 3betting range from utg+1. Most players are very tight from utg.

      Thirdly there is no history and I'm against a tight player.

      I'd be happier to 3bet QQ because then I can easily dump it to a 4bet (although I would just call with it)

      If I did accidentally 4bet I would fold to a 5bet without much thought. I would expect him to auto fold QQ to my 4bet, maybe occasionally calling with it.

      Comment


        #4
        Not 4 betting KK here 460BB's deep is ridiculous, especially given Villians position.

        Also villian is "good" and we expect him to auto fold QQ to a 4bet this deep? I find this to be a Paradox
        Last edited by Arazi; 21-11-12, 15:03.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Arazi View Post
          Not 4 betting KK here 460BB's deep is ridiculous, especially given Villians position.
          4 betting KK here 460BB's deep is ridiculous, especially given Villians position.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
            Villain is good, not much history. I have $230 and villain covers. He probably sees me as very solid. These games are pretty tight.

            I make it 3 utg with KK. Villain utg + 1 makes it 9. I call.

            Flop is 2 3 5 with two diamonds. I check call 11

            Turn is the four of diamonds. I have the Kd. I check he bets 21, I make it 63

            Good, bad indifferent?
            Personally I would be raising pre-flop (after his raise) and c/r on the flop or even r/r on the flop. The turn is a killer and definately not raising there... Probably c/c or c/f. His actions makes me think he has the AQ suited or off suit. Not trips, either way had u beaten on the turn
            No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity, but I know none, therefore am no beast.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
              Several

              First we are 200bbs deep

              Second we are in the two tightest positions. Most people have no light 3betting range from utg+1. Most players are very tight from utg.

              Thirdly there is no history and I'm against a tight player.

              I'd be happier to 3bet QQ because then I can easily dump it to a 4bet (although I would just call with it)

              If I did accidentally 4bet I would fold to a 5bet without much thought. I would expect him to auto fold QQ to my 4bet, maybe occasionally calling with it.
              Ok, in the OP you say villain is a good player.
              In your 2nd post you say he is a tight player.
              This obviously changes things.

              Is there not a difference in how either player would play the hand in position against you if they view you as tight (in your words)?

              I'm not nit-picking, just trying to flesh the hand out a bit from Villains POV.

              Comment


                #8
                200+ deep, OOP, i'd much prefer be 4 betting KK when i'm likely to be way head than bloating the pot on the turn where i'm likely to be way behind.

                seems a very strange line IMO, perhaps you can justify...i'm no expert

                edit: well let's say ''on the turn where i'm likely to be way behind-more often)
                Last edited by bustamoves; 21-11-12, 14:59.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                  4 betting KK here 460BB's deep is ridiculous, especially given Villians position.
                  This is really your whole problem with the hand.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I don't get what you are trying to achieve with the turn raise, I'm inclined to thinking that check calling is going to be the most profitable option.

                    There is only one river card that is going to improve things for you. Tricky spot.
                    Turning millions into thousands

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I think you've butchered the hand:

                      Pre - not 4 Betting preflop this deep OOP is ridiculous IMO
                      Flop - when we only call the 3Bet pre then cc'ing the flop is a default, however on this flop we should be cr'ing all day long
                      Turn - I really cant see what we're trying to achieve here?

                      EDit to say i didnt see that the turn was a third diamond - would need to know if you had Kd to comment on the turn play.
                      Last edited by Arazi; 21-11-12, 15:33.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Pretty strong hand to turn into a bluff on turn, if you think it's unprofitable to call then I suppose it's ok to take this line and jam all rivers, should get enough folds for it to be ok with the kd. If you didn't have the kd though its madness and just check fold.
                        "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                          Ok, in the OP you say villain is a good player.
                          In your 2nd post you say he is a tight player.
                          This obviously changes things.

                          Is there not a difference in how either player would play the hand in position against you if they view you as tight (in your words)?

                          I'm not nit-picking, just trying to flesh the hand out a bit from Villains POV.
                          Yeah sorry, I realise that is a difference. When I say good, I don't really mean good. A good player has a difficult range to pin down, and can turn up with a lot of bluffs in almost every sport and basically is a nightmare to play against. This guy is tight and solid, he doesn't make any mistakes; but is a little bit straightforward. Not terribly so, just your standard unimaginative TAG. He does 3bet light a reasonable amount, but only from the blinds/button from what I've seen.

                          Also, I don't know this player terribly well, so I might be wrong in these assumptions. He's definitely a TAG anyway.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                            I think you've butchered the hand:

                            Pre - not 4 Betting preflop this deep OOP is ridiculous IMO
                            You keep saying this and it's ridiculous. The deeper you are the worse 4betting becomes. When I 4bet I define my range as very strong, but I am out of position with a lot of streets to go. A good player can call the 4bet play perfectly against me, bluff me off the pot on medium or low boards or value town me. Also when he calls the 4bet AA makes up a large bit of his range meaning I'm basically up sh*t creek without a paddle. By calling I can keep my range very wide (I'm at the top of my range rather than the bottom), keep the pot small, and importantly play against a range I do well against.

                            You may play in games where people stack off with QQ for 200bbs, but I don't. All 4betting here will achieve is to fold worse hands.


                            Edit: Just to add, I could only take the line I did take in this hand because I flat called pre. I can never have a six if I 4bet.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
                              I don't get what you are trying to achieve with the turn raise, I'm inclined to thinking that check calling is going to be the most profitable option.

                              There is only one river card that is going to improve things for you. Tricky spot.
                              I'm turning my hand into a bluff

                              I hate check calling, I'd rather just check fold. I have no outs, and I'm not sure what to do if I hit my flush. Probably bet fold, but it's not going to be that profitable.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                I think you've butchered the hand:

                                Pre - not 4 Betting preflop this deep OOP is ridiculous IMO
                                Flop - when we only call the 3Bet pre then cc'ing the flop is a default, however on this flop we should be cr'ing all day long
                                Turn - I really cant see what we're trying to achieve here?

                                EDit to say i didnt see that the turn was a third diamond - would need to know if you had Kd to comment on the turn play.
                                Replied to preflop already.

                                I hate check raising that flop as I don't have that great equity, I also don't know what to do if he 3bets, I can't really fold I suppose. My problem with check raising here is that I'm representing a stronger hand than I really have. I can have a set here. I can imagine sometimes stacking QQ here, and sometimes getting AA to fold on the turn (Cr then bet). I'm not really sure how he will react.

                                The turn I'm trying to fold an ace. I can easily have a 6 in my range, or a flush. He will not expect me to bluff here, and I can't really ever not have some sort of a hand. I do have the Kd (listed in the op), but that's really just a back up, I would do it without it. I don't expect him to fold the Ad anyway; so if he does call my CR I'm check folding a diamond.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                  Not 4 betting KK here 460BB's deep is ridiculous, especially given Villians position.
                                  This hand is 50 1, so it's 230bbs deep really.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Line Us View Post
                                    Pretty strong hand to turn into a bluff on turn, if you think it's unprofitable to call then I suppose it's ok to take this line and jam all rivers, should get enough folds for it to be ok with the kd. If you didn't have the kd though its madness and just check fold.
                                    It is a pretty strong hand, but I don't think its profitable to call, so of all the bluffs to take its the best. I wasn't sure whether I was going to jam the river or not, I was going to decide based on the timing. I think a lot of players fold the turn because they fear the river Jam, those that call the turn will often call the river.

                                    Obviously the Kd is a bonus, but I don't think it makes that large a difference.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                      I'm turning my hand into a bluff

                                      I hate check calling, I'd rather just check fold. I have no outs, and I'm not sure what to do if I hit my flush. Probably bet fold, but it's not going to be that profitable.
                                      I'd have thought leading the turn was the cheaper bluffing option don't you have the exact same prospects but at less cost?
                                      Turning millions into thousands

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        I wouldn't expect him to fold an ace to a lead, would you? It would probably be a good line with a 6

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
                                          I'd have thought leading the turn was the cheaper bluffing option don't you have the exact same prospects but at less cost?
                                          Shirley donking on the turn is a recipe for disaster.

                                          You say you want to get an ace to fold. I don't think anyone would really fold an ace there. Realistically it will take the turn and river bullets to win this and I just don't think they fold the winning hand/call with worse enough to make this profitable.

                                          You have left yourself $147 for the river if he flats the turn raise. Is that setting up the river shove?

                                          Dropping 230 bigs on a big bluff seems a bit mad to me
                                          Last edited by The Aul Switcharoo; 21-11-12, 16:27.
                                          Redbet at the Dublin Poker Invasion FTW

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by The Aul Switcharoo View Post
                                            Dropping 230 bigs on a big bluff seems a bit mad to me
                                            ?

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                              Replied to preflop already.

                                              I hate check raising that flop as I don't have that great equity, I also don't know what to do if he 3bets, I can't really fold I suppose. My problem with check raising here is that I'm representing a stronger hand than I really have. I can have a set here. I can imagine sometimes stacking QQ here, and sometimes getting AA to fold on the turn (Cr then bet). I'm not really sure how he will react.

                                              The turn I'm trying to fold an ace. I can easily have a 6 in my range, or a flush. He will not expect me to bluff here, and I can't really ever not have some sort of a hand. I do have the Kd (listed in the op), but that's really just a back up, I would do it without it. I don't expect him to fold the Ad anyway; so if he does call my CR I'm check folding a diamond.
                                              i have to say i am amazed that you think you're getting and A to fold enough here. I'd never have thought that. I mean i would 100% not be folding and A on the turn no matter how 'tight' or 'solid' i thought my opponent was. OK if you jam the river then i have a very tough call.
                                              Having the Kd i thought would be critical to bringing this close to a profitable bluff raise. I mean with the Kd you will at least suck out a fair bit on his Ax hands.

                                              I'm really at a huge loss in trying to understand how this whole hand/line can ever be that great a money maker.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                It is a pretty strong hand, but I don't think its profitable to call, so of all the bluffs to take its the best. I wasn't sure whether I was going to jam the river or not, I was going to decide based on the timing. I think a lot of players fold the turn because they fear the river Jam, those that call the turn will often call the river.

                                                Obviously the Kd is a bonus, but I don't think it makes that large a difference.
                                                The kd effectively takes the nuts out of his range (asssuming his 3bet range preflop is super tight)and also gives us some equity vs his non diamond aces if he does call the turn. That's a big enough difference imo.

                                                I don't think you will get enough folds from ax to make the turn check raise profitable on its own, your gonna need the the added equity of the kd, its blocker value vs the nuts and a river jam too. Your being too optimistic if you think people will bet fold ax here enough without the above, especially if they think you are anyway decent and assume you will bluff the turn some % or try and get them off a split when you have ax yourself.
                                                "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                  ?
                                                  If he flats the turn are you jamming the river if you miss?

                                                  Dunno why I said that really. We have turned our hand into a bluff really and if he calls the turn we gotta go with a river shove. I shy away from the big bluff but I know I should do it more.
                                                  Redbet at the Dublin Poker Invasion FTW

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by The Aul Switcharoo View Post
                                                    If he flats the turn are you jamming the river if you miss?

                                                    Dunno why I said that really. We have turned our hand into a bluff really and if he calls the turn we gotta go with a river shove. I shy away from the big bluff but I know I should do it more.
                                                    Well it's a good point really, the reason I think its a good bluff is that most people don't like making 200bbs bluffs; I usually assume they aren't capable of them until I see otherwise.

                                                    Yeah probably jamming unless I chicken out. The point is though it looks like I'm going to jam, which means he is more likely to fold the turn.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                      Well it's a good point really, the reason I think its a good bluff is that most people don't like making 200bbs bluffs; I usually assume they aren't capable of them until I see otherwise.

                                                      Yeah probably jamming unless I chicken out. The point is though it looks like I'm going to jam, which means he is more likely to fold the turn.
                                                      Would you think if he times down he is obviously thinking of your river jam and would have it set in his mind that he is snapping any river bet?
                                                      Redbet at the Dublin Poker Invasion FTW

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Line Us View Post
                                                        The kd effectively takes the nuts out of his range (asssuming his 3bet range preflop is super tight)and also gives us some equity vs his non diamond aces if he does call the turn. That's a big enough difference imo.

                                                        I don't think you will get enough folds from ax to make the turn check raise profitable on its own, your gonna need the the added equity of the kd, its blocker value vs the nuts and a river jam too. Your being too optimistic if you think people will bet fold ax here enough without the above, especially if they think you are anyway decent and assume you will bluff the turn some % or try and get them off a split when you have ax yourself.
                                                        Good point about taking AKd out of his range, it's almost impossible for him to have a flush.

                                                        I think people will bet fold an ace here quite a lot of the time, we are very deep, he isn't very committed and I am representing a 6, not an ace. These games aren't aggressive enough for anyone to be raising an ace here.

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by The Aul Switcharoo View Post
                                                          Would you think if he times down he is obviously thinking of your river jam and would have it set in his mind that he is snapping any river bet?
                                                          Yeah, the quicker he called the more likely I would think it is that he has an ace, and would be hoping that a quick call will dissuade me from bluffing the river. A long pause would he him mentally preparing himself to call the river shove. Timing is an art though, not a science!

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                                            i have to say i am amazed that you think you're getting and A to fold enough here. I'd never have thought that. I mean i would 100% not be folding and A on the turn no matter how 'tight' or 'solid' i thought my opponent was. OK if you jam the river then i have a very tough call.
                                                            Having the Kd i thought would be critical to bringing this close to a profitable bluff raise. I mean with the Kd you will at least suck out a fair bit on his Ax hands.

                                                            I'm really at a huge loss in trying to understand how this whole hand/line can ever be that great a money maker.
                                                            Most people are terrible at poker, I'd never expect a random person to fold an ace here. An experienced TAG will fold an ace here though unless he thinks he is being bluffed.

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              If you put it up as a reverso with a river shove w/ a bare ace people would probably say fold.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                                                If you put it up as a reverso with a river shove w/ a bare ace people would probably say fold.
                                                                In that case so lets check raise the turn with our whole 3bet calling range, easy game.
                                                                "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by Line Us View Post
                                                                  In that case so lets check raise the turn with our whole 3bet calling range, easy game.
                                                                  Not when the read is "c/r me on the turn in every 3bet pot"

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    How often does this spot come up though? I can't remember the last time a tight player 3bet my utg raise, never mind from utg +1


                                                                    Anyway I'm off out so I'll give the results. He folded pretty quickly. So quick I'm not sure he had an ace.

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                                                      If you put it up as a reverso with a river shove w/ a bare ace people would probably say fold.
                                                                      Good point. I think it's a good line provided you don't think calling is profitable and you shove any river. FWIW if I'm in villains position with the Ad I call turn and let you barrel off on river. You having the Kd takes the nuts out of his range but you are unlikely to have many flushes either given the nature of the game (based on him having Ad)

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                                                        If you put it up as a reverso with a river shove w/ a bare ace people would probably say fold.
                                                                        It's a lot more difficult to fold it in the game than write it on a message board hence it makes no difference really.

                                                                        Anyway I would never c/r turn, I'd rather a call. You literally never get an A to fold to the turn bet plus there are very little 6s in your range from UTG, although I assume you would call most of yours suited 6x to a 3bet if you open them??
                                                                        Last edited by digiman; 21-11-12, 21:28.

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by digiman View Post
                                                                          It's a lot more difficult to fold it in the game than write it on a message board hence it makes no difference really.

                                                                          Anyway I would never c/r turn, I'd rather a call. You literally never get an A to fold to the turn bet plus there are very little 6s in your range from UTG, although I assume you would call most of yours suited 6x to a 3bet if you open them??
                                                                          That the one point that was bothering me actually... If I was the villian, I was never going to believe that the utg had a 6 if the utg opens with a 3 bet utg. Likely an A at the very minimum, so I don't understand hector saying he was calling the villian raise to 9 so to widen his range. Come the turn if the villian had an A he would call as he would be inclined to call as he believe he would be splitting the pot... So c/r turn imho is not great play...
                                                                          No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity, but I know none, therefore am no beast.

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by pokerhand View Post
                                                                            That the one point that was bothering me actually... If I was the villian, I was never going to believe that the utg had a 6 if the utg opens with a 3 bet utg. Likely an A at the very minimum, so I don't understand hector saying he was calling the villian raise to 9 so to widen his range. Come the turn if the villian had an A he would call as he would be inclined to call as he believe he would be splitting the pot... So c/r turn imho is not great play...
                                                                            Its much easier for me to have 66, 67s - most players will open 66 utg and call a 3bet, and sometimes open 67s and call a 3bet, a lot more than someone will 3bet these hands from utg + 1

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                                                                              Good point. I think it's a good line provided you don't think calling is profitable and you shove any river. FWIW if I'm in villains position with the Ad I call turn and let you barrel off on river. You having the Kd takes the nuts out of his range but you are unlikely to have many flushes either given the nature of the game (based on him having Ad)
                                                                              Yes, if he has the Ad it takes the nuts out of my range. I am less likely to have a flush, although there are still hands that I could have, QJs KQs, TJs, I would open all of these pre. I'd fold them a lot of the time to a 3bet, but he doesn't know that .

                                                                              Thankfully he usually doesn't have the Ad.

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                @hJ
                                                                                What hand do you think he folded then?

                                                                                Is the conclusion then that your c/r on turn is only profitable if you were prepared to jam the river or any river? You said you were ck folding to any d, but the points made here by LineUs et al suggest that he is unlikely to have the nuts because you have the blocker (Kd). So that means bluffing all rivers must be the line?

                                                                                Aside:
                                                                                You mentioned that you would base your jam on how quickly he timed down before calling turn....how reliable is that kind of timing tell and is it something you read into alot? Is that used as a reverse tell alot?

                                                                                U say he usually doesnt have Ad anyway (is that based on combos of for e.g say AA and AK, ie. 15/22 times he'll not have it- is that the basis of that assumption, just curious)?

                                                                                Do you still go with 'i'd do it without the Kd'. i presume not (again just curious).

                                                                                Of the hand(s) you reckon he folded, do you think playing vs that hand/range (say if you think he prob had JJ/QQ) do you think that playing it any other way would have been more profitable. e.g. 4 bet pre

                                                                                Is there any adjustments necessary vs this villain in future?

                                                                                Is 100nl gone so tough that turning KK into a bluff to get ppl off AA is necessary?

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Good questions

                                                                                  Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                                                                  @hJ
                                                                                  What hand do you think he folded then?
                                                                                  If I had to guess I'd say an ace with no diamond. That or a bluff. Its a good barrelling card for him. If I was him I'd bet the turn with any pairs that I thought weren't good. I'm really just guessing though, I don't know.

                                                                                  Originally posted by bustamoves View Post

                                                                                  Is the conclusion then that your c/r on turn is only profitable if you were prepared to jam the river or any river? You said you were ck folding to any d, but the points made here by LineUs et al suggest that he is unlikely to have the nuts because you have the blocker (Kd). So that means bluffing all rivers must be the line?
                                                                                  I think this is one of the bluffs you can make where the fear of future bets is enough to get him to fold. I was planning on following through on a lot of rivers, because an ace might get stubborn. I can't bluff a diamond river because I have the Kd, ie the 2nd nuts. No better hand can fold, so its a value bet.

                                                                                  Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                                                                  Aside:
                                                                                  You mentioned that you would base your jam on how quickly he timed down before calling turn....how reliable is that kind of timing tell and is it something you read into alot? Is that used as a reverse tell alot?
                                                                                  I don't use timing tells that much, but in this case since I had decided that I wasn't definitely following through with it, its a pretty good way of randomising my bluffing percentage. I honestly think I've never ever fallen for a reverse timing tell. Actually the 2nd most common timing tell (After people calling quickly because they have no other option) are people attempting reverse timing tells. They are usually very transparent. The best thing to do with regard timing is to try and standardise it.

                                                                                  Originally posted by bustamoves View Post

                                                                                  U say he usually doesnt have Ad anyway (is that based on combos of for e.g say AA and AK, ie. 15/22 times he'll not have it- is that the basis of that assumption, just curious)?

                                                                                  Do you still go with 'i'd do it without the Kd'. i presume not (again just curious).
                                                                                  Yeah, I didn't work it out or anything, even if his entire range is AA its 50/50, and he has to have loads of AK/AQ combos as well

                                                                                  I always think people overestimate the value of blockers, However I think instinctively I would just fold since my equity has gone to close to zero. I played a lot of tables at once and I tend to play mostly according to my equity.

                                                                                  Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                                                                  Of the hand(s) you reckon he folded, do you think playing vs that hand/range (say if you think he prob had JJ/QQ) do you think that playing it any other way would have been more profitable. e.g. 4 bet pre
                                                                                  I don't really know. I mean if I knew for sure he had JJ or QQ I'd call him down to the river then raise him if I was ahead, or shove if I was behind and thought he'd fold. It's rare I get to see my opponents hands though! If I wanted to 4bet pre I would have to open up my range and start 4bet bluffing 200bbs deep more (which I already do a bit) and also do more value 4bets, like TT JJ QQ, which I never do really.

                                                                                  Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                                                                  Is there any adjustments necessary vs this villain in future?
                                                                                  Not really. There was no showdown so its hard to know exactly how either of us should adjust. I wouldn't take the exact same line against him as a bluff for a while, but I doubt it will come up. I do have a feeling his range wasn't as strong as I perhaps first imagined, but since I didn't see his hand I don't know. I mean he might have had 72o for all I know, or he could have had QQ

                                                                                  Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                                                                  Is 100nl gone so tough that turning KK into a bluff to get ppl off AA is necessary?
                                                                                  In a way, yes! The TAGs I see at 100nl don't make very many mistakes. I play as low as 20nl a lot of the time and the TAGS there are ludicrously bad. Years ago you had the same skill range, but replace 100nl with 1knl, and 20nl with 100nl.

                                                                                  Lately I've been posting the hands that I played the strangest. I posted this as I though almost every street was controversial. Also if you played like this most of the time you would be a huge loser (maybe that should tell me something!)

                                                                                  Thanks for all the comments, feedback and arguments, I think this has been a great thread.

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Just read and enjoyed this thread. A quick look at combo's was interesting....

                                                                                    If villain is super straightforward and his range is AA-QQ,AKo,AKs that is 21 combos since we have KK.

                                                                                    On the turn when HJ check raises, 14 of those combo's contain an Ace, not great news really, but, only 5 combo's contain the critical A and as has been said, it is almost impossible for villain to have a made flush.

                                                                                    Very impressive that you can process all that so quickly in play, especially since its a spot you will face so infrequently. WP excellent range deductions HJ.

                                                                                    So given the scarcity of soft tables these days, is this what it takes to exploit the average 100 nl game now?
                                                                                    "Being wrong is erroneously associated with failure, when, in fact, to be proven wrong should be celebrated, for it elevates someone to a new level of understanding."

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                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      I think you're giving his 3betting range far too much credit. While I don't think you should 4bet without history of doing tons of funky stuff preflop, I certainly don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that he 3bets you here with 67s or 9Ts or w/e. Whenever I'm deep in position I tend to 3bet alot more suited stuff rather than stuff like jacks or w/e as they're much more profitable and puts you into sh*t spots the whole time. WHether or not a standard TAG is playing like that obviously I don't know.

                                                                                      What's your plan for brick rivers? Are you betting every river?
                                                                                      Looking for full or part time poker and betting writers. PM if interested.

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                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                                                                        I think you've butchered the hand:

                                                                                        Pre - not 4 Betting preflop this deep OOP is ridiculous IMO
                                                                                        Flop - when we only call the 3Bet pre then cc'ing the flop is a default, however on this flop we should be cr'ing all day long
                                                                                        Turn - I really cant see what we're trying to achieve here?

                                                                                        EDit to say i didnt see that the turn was a third diamond - would need to know if you had Kd to comment on the turn play.
                                                                                        +1

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                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Seems a lot are suggesting 4 betting preflop. I'm curious......

                                                                                          Why 4b, for value I presume?
                                                                                          What do we do when villain 5b's?
                                                                                          What is villains 4b calling range?
                                                                                          "Being wrong is erroneously associated with failure, when, in fact, to be proven wrong should be celebrated, for it elevates someone to a new level of understanding."

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                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Originally posted by ianmc38 View Post
                                                                                            I think you're giving his 3betting range far too much credit. While I don't think you should 4bet without history of doing tons of funky stuff preflop, I certainly don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that he 3bets you here with 67s or 9Ts or w/e.
                                                                                            Given HJ's read and factoring in that it's UTG v's UTG+1 (is this a spot where your average TAG will consider it profitable to get creative)
                                                                                            Thirdly there is no history and I'm against a tight player
                                                                                            Do you really think there are many if any funky hands in villains 3b range, I tend to suspect not enough worth considering as a factor but I do range on the tighter side?
                                                                                            "Being wrong is erroneously associated with failure, when, in fact, to be proven wrong should be celebrated, for it elevates someone to a new level of understanding."

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                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              I rarely get 3bet when I raise utg or utg +1, and I when I do its never from utg + 1, so I don't think people are three betting me light in those spots; and if they are its so rare as to be basically zero.

                                                                                              Edit, this is 2012 so it's still 10%-15% 8Js and so on, but I think its about 85% value, rather than something like cutoff vs blinds where it's 20% value
                                                                                              Last edited by Hectorjelly; 28-11-12, 18:19.

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                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                Originally posted by ibimon View Post
                                                                                                +1
                                                                                                You might want to read the rest of the thread.

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                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  In these positions and stack sizes a lot of people's ranges from UTG+1 are (AA, KK, bluffs). There's obviously merit to calling and then playing post-flop and may well be the most prudent thing to do if there's no history.

                                                                                                  I don't hate post-flop, i don't really know how to feel about it though, prob okay.

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                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    Originally posted by colquhom View Post
                                                                                                    In these positions and stack sizes a lot of people's ranges from UTG+1 are (AA, KK, bluffs). There's obviously merit to calling and then playing post-flop and may well be the most prudent thing to do if there's no history.
                                                                                                    .
                                                                                                    Yeah, thats exactly what I thought, but didn't put it so concisely

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                                                                                                      #51
                                                                                                      Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                                                      Villain is good, not much history. I have $230 and villain covers. He probably sees me as very solid. These games are pretty tight.

                                                                                                      I make it 3 utg with KK. Villain utg + 1 makes it 9. I call.

                                                                                                      Flop is 2 3 5 with two diamonds. I check call 11

                                                                                                      Turn is the four of diamonds. I have the Kd. I check he bets 21, I make it 63

                                                                                                      Good, bad indifferent?
                                                                                                      I like your call preflop. Although, 3betting light in the UTG+1 has gained some popularity of late. I think there was a video on deucescracked. That indeed strengthens the argument for calling the 3bet.
                                                                                                      I cannot see any other play other than check call on the flop.

                                                                                                      The turn I prob would have check called but If you’re guess is correct that his range, at this point) is AA,KK,AK. And your perceived range has a lot of suited connecteors XdXd , and 6X Hands then I really like your turn play.

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                                                                                                        #52
                                                                                                        Originally posted by colquhom View Post
                                                                                                        In these positions and stack sizes a lot of people's ranges from UTG+1 are (AA, KK, bluffs). There's obviously merit to calling and then playing post-flop and may well be the most prudent thing to do if there's no history.

                                                                                                        I don't hate post-flop, i don't really know how to feel about it though, prob okay.
                                                                                                        Yes - it seems the turn is a good card for villain to keep bluffing. Villain might check turn with QQ KK and Bet with Any AX and Any Bluff as you will fold lots of mid pairs

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