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    High variance or just plain bad?

    I'm back at the live SNG again this week. We are down to 4handed and this hand occurs.

    Hero: 13200
    Villain: ~20000
    Player 1: ~8000
    Player 2: ~11000

    Blinds 150-300

    Villain opens UTG 800 fold around to hero in BB and calls with AJdd. Flop K74dds,I c/r his 1600 to 4050,he tanks for a little and then calls, turn 10c,I shove 8350.

    My read on the villain is that he likes to limp around alot and has already got to showdown with less than premium holdings in raised pots. In one of the hands I had played with him already he had shown a reluctancy to fold top pair to my 3bet bluff on the flop.

    I would be interested to hear people's thoughts on whether this is good or not vs this type of "stationy" player?

    #2
    I like it and i play it same as. He can only call if he has a K even if he is a station + you should hav 15 clean outs so its not that bad if your called.
    They will be like WTF how does he always have the top of his range, and they will be saying that when you show up with like nine's - Jimmy Fricke
    Nine's are the top of my range - Shaun Deeb

    Comment


      #3
      Perfectly played.

      Did he call with k-6 and you miss?

      Comment


        #4
        I probably 3bet pre for value. Calling is ok too though.

        As played it's fine, good board to check raise on(whether you have it or not) as its hard to continue without a K or better.

        I might just call but I think check/raising is fine, we can even get it in vs worse draws here.

        I shove the turn also.

        Comment


          #5
          i play it same way... so it must be wrong

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Bubbleboy View Post
            Perfectly played.

            Did he call with k-6 and you miss?
            Got tanked called with JJ and bricked.

            Comment


              #7
              Has he open raised before? If he's a limpy/passive fish then I'd probably muck it pre. Alarm bells go off in my head when someone like that suddenly decides to raise, and even more so when they make it a manual 800 instead of a click like 900 or 1200.
              Last edited by Caf; 23-03-12, 03:33. Reason: ugh^^^ the result...

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by andyw1291 View Post
                I'm back at the live SNG again this week. We are down to 4handed and this hand occurs.

                Hero: 13200
                Villain: ~20000
                Player 1: ~8000
                Player 2: ~11000

                Blinds 150-300

                Villain opens UTG 800 fold around to hero in BB and calls with AJdd. Flop K74dds,I c/r his 1600 to 4050,he tanks for a little and then calls, turn 10c,I shove 8350.

                My read on the villain is that he likes to limp around alot and has already got to showdown with less than premium holdings in raised pots. In one of the hands I had played with him already he had shown a reluctancy to fold top pair to my 3bet bluff on the flop.

                I would be interested to hear people's thoughts on whether this is good or not vs this type of "stationy" player?
                Just a sidenote that I probably should have put in the initial post. The hand where I had 3bet on the flop: I opened the btn, he flats sb, i cbet an A92r board,he c/r's and 3bet he flats with AJ and it goes c/c turn,river. So he knows I am more than capable of trying to bluff him pretty big.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Caf View Post
                  Has he open raised before? If he's a limpy/passive fish then I'd probably muck it pre. Alarm bells go off in my head when someone like that suddenly decides to raise, and even more so when they make it a manual 800 instead of a click like 900 or 1200.
                  Yeah I get what your saying and I considered that when calling but I had also seen him open KJs at a smaller level to about the same size and call a 3bet with the hand, so I felt that he wasnt that nutted to premium pocket pairs that have me in horrid shape and that he had some hands that I had crushed.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by andyw1291 View Post
                    Just a sidenote that I probably should have put in the initial post. The hand where I had 3bet on the flop: I opened the btn, he flats sb, i cbet an A92r board,he c/r's and 3bet he flats with AJ and it goes c/c turn,river. So he knows I am more than capable of trying to bluff him pretty big.
                    A check/raise from a passive player? More alarm bells going off! I wouldn't see any point in putting another chip in after the cbet, not the type of player to be bluff 3betting post flop imo.


                    Meh, it all depends on what range you give to someone passive who takes aggressive action, and obv just how passive they actually are.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Caf View Post
                      Alarm bells go off in my head when someone like that suddenly decides to raise, and even more so when they make it a manual 800 instead of a click like 900 or 1200.
                      Originally posted by andyw1291 View Post
                      I'm back at the live SNG again this week. ?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Caf View Post
                        A check/raise from a passive player? More alarm bells going off! I wouldn't see any point in putting another chip in after the cbet, not the type of player to be bluff 3betting post flop imo.


                        Meh, it all depends on what range you give to someone passive who takes aggressive action, and obv just how passive they actually are.
                        The more I was thinking about that 3bet bluff, the more i hated it. At the time I just wasnt giving him credit for a strong range on such a dry board but you're definitly right that he was the wrong type of player to be bluffing.
                        The reason why I think this hand is imp is that had he not caught me bluffing in this spot i think it's far less likely I get hero'd on the turn with JJ in the hand i posted initially.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                          LOL, missed that it was live. Ignore that part, I'll x it.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            It reminded me of a story from the BBV in the old place (I think) about a drunk player getting frustrated and shouting when the dealer messed up his action becasue he pressed the raise button or something like that.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by andyw1291 View Post
                              The more I was thinking about that 3bet bluff, the more i hated it. At the time I just wasnt giving him credit for a strong range on such a dry board but you're definitly right that he was the wrong type of player to be bluffing.
                              The reason why I think this hand is imp is that had he not caught me bluffing in this spot i think it's far less likely I get hero'd on the turn with JJ in the hand i posted initially.
                              Surely the history of that bluff you tried would make him more inclined to call you down. Given that hand, he's probably thinking that JJ is the nuts against you(I reckon most people would anyway).

                              Comment


                                #16
                                UGH
                                Originally posted by andyw1291 View Post
                                Got tanked called with JJ and bricked.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Is fine. Never folding pre this deep when villain has history of overvaluing hands. c/c flop or c/r both fine, prefer c/r to bomb turn vs this villain and sizing
                                  "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    I like donking out this flop. If he folds we win, if he raises we can shove it with FD+overcard+more FE that we have now as it would go like 1k/2.5k/13k all in. If he calls we can barrell the turn and still ship the river if we want to.

                                    As played I guess we have to ship the turn but have less FE.
                                    "Poker isn’t about default strategies, it’s about exploiting your opponent's bad tendencies"

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Bubbleboy View Post
                                      UGH
                                      Is it a bad call?

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Caf View Post
                                        Is it a bad call?
                                        I wouldn't say it was a bad call by villan, its a hero call, its just that he has to put me on exactly the hand I have and after I had tried to bluff him once Im less likely to try and bluff him again.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by andyw1291 View Post
                                          I wouldn't say it was a bad call by villan, its a hero call, its just that he has to put me on exactly the hand I have and after I had tried to bluff him once Im less likely to try and bluff him again.
                                          He may not see this that way! He saw you trying to bluff one pot, that registers with him and he thinks you're bluffing again! Bad players don't like to level

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Caf View Post
                                            Is it a bad call?
                                            Obv not given spoiler but I'd def be expecting him to fold.
                                            Like you'd hardly call it standard?
                                            If he likes his hand enough why isn't he jamming flop.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Really this is always a call with JJ....he has better than 2-1 on the call and surely he has more than 30% equity vs you range.
                                              AK you 3bet pre.
                                              KQ/KJ/KT you probably check/call flop because check/raising wouldn't be really good imo as you get many worse hands to fold.
                                              Other K you probably fold them pre.
                                              Of course you could have 44/77, but 4-handed wouldn't get too worried about flopped sets when FD/Combo draws like 56s take a bigger slide of your range.

                                              Also, I wouldn't expect Villain to think too much, JJ on that flop is basically always a check back for 1000 reasons.
                                              "Poker isn’t about default strategies, it’s about exploiting your opponent's bad tendencies"

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                As a matter of interest - how many places are being paid in this SNG??

                                                On this hand you're in 2nd position with blinds at only 150-300, and you say you've already tried [and failed] to 3bet bluff this villain already.

                                                My point being that you seem to be playing it very 'fast' and taking risks you dont have to. Once he's called your c/r on the flop he's saying his hand has a strength and on that board the 10 doesn't change that strength much.

                                                I think you took an 'all or nothing' approach to the villian which first you didn't have to, given the stack sizes and blind levels, and second which, because of your history with villain and your assessment of him as weak seems excessive.

                                                The goal with 'stationy' type players as you describe him, is to get them to pay you when you have a made hand, and you probably are aware of the old adage that bluffing a calling station isn't the best of strategies.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Oh, I didn't realise this was four handed when I originally posted(must read all OP in future) so never folding pre.

                                                  Originally posted by andyw1291 View Post
                                                  I wouldn't say it was a bad call by villan, its a hero call, its just that he has to put me on exactly the hand I have and after I had tried to bluff him once Im less likely to try and bluff him again.
                                                  I wouldn't really think it a hero call tbh, he could be peeling to see a blank and then calling not that I'd really want to get into what exactly his thoughts on the hand are but after calling the flop, folding the turn when a blank comes would be bad.

                                                  Originally posted by Bubbleboy View Post
                                                  Obv not given spoiler but I'd def be expecting him to fold.
                                                  Like you'd hardly call it standard?
                                                  If he likes his hand enough why isn't he jamming flop.
                                                  The spoiler has nothing to do with it(I'm talking from his POV without knowing what our hero has). Reasons that Viper lists below say it better than I could.
                                                  I would consider it pretty standard tbh.
                                                  As for him liking his hand and not jamming the flop, he's a passive fish...that's how they do.

                                                  Originally posted by ViperEyeIRL View Post
                                                  Really this is always a call with JJ....he has better than 2-1 on the call and surely he has more than 30% equity vs you range.
                                                  AK you 3bet pre.
                                                  KQ/KJ/KT you probably check/call flop because check/raising wouldn't be really good imo as you get many worse hands to fold.
                                                  Other K you probably fold them pre.
                                                  Of course you could have 44/77, but 4-handed wouldn't get too worried about flopped sets when FD/Combo draws like 56s take a bigger slide of your range.

                                                  Also, I wouldn't expect Villain to think too much, JJ on that flop is basically always a check back for 1000 reasons.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Caf View Post
                                                    Oh, I didn't realise this was four handed when I originally posted(must read all OP in future) so never folding pre.



                                                    I wouldn't really think it a hero call tbh, he could be peeling to see a blank and then calling not that I'd really want to get into what exactly his thoughts on the hand are but after calling the flop, folding the turn when a blank comes would be bad.



                                                    The spoiler has nothing to do with it(I'm talking from his POV without knowing what our hero has). Reasons that Viper lists below say it better than I could.
                                                    I would consider it pretty standard tbh.
                                                    As for him liking his hand and not jamming the flop, he's a passive fish...that's how they do.

                                                    Your saying he's a fish but then using Viper's reasons as to why he should call.If he is a random passive fish then how will he work out all of this before he calls?WTF does he know about ranges or equity.One of the few things he knows is that he doesn't have the top pair on the board.Far from standard call.He just couldn't let them go.
                                                    Fair enough a good player in this position might find the call knowing all of Vipers information here,but were not talking about a good player so that's all out of context really.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Bubbleboy View Post
                                                      Your saying he's a fish but then using Viper's reasons as to why he should call.If he is a random passive fish then how will he work out all of this before he calls?WTF does he know about ranges or equity.One of the few things he knows is that he doesn't have the top pair on the board.Far from standard call.He just couldn't let them go.
                                                      Fair enough a good player in this position might find the call knowing all of Vipers information here,but were not talking about a good player so that's all out of context really.
                                                      Why would he jam the flop if he thinks he's good with Jj he just calls and tries to get another spew on the turn.

                                                      Plus if he puts him on the type of hand he has he's never folding it out so I think the flat on the flop is good.
                                                      Btw andy I play the hand the same way just ul.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Tbh i'd prefer to take the low variance option in this hand. When you c-raise flop the only made hands you're repping is like KQ , KJ(maybe) , 77, 44 and maybe k7 compared to the amount of combos of straight and flush draws you have.

                                                        A competent villain will know this and can call your flop bet with 7x and also 88,99,TT+

                                                        I think by raising the flop you're folding out all hands that you beat and keeping in like 7x,88,99,TT,Kx etc that can play perfect against you on a blank turn if you shove.

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by Bubbleboy View Post
                                                          Your saying he's a fish but then using Viper's reasons as to why he should call.If he is a random passive fish then how will he work out all of this before he calls?WTF does he know about ranges or equity.One of the few things he knows is that he doesn't have the top pair on the board.Far from standard call.He just couldn't let them go.
                                                          Fair enough a good player in this position might find the call knowing all of Vipers information here,but were not talking about a good player so that's all out of context really.
                                                          You're twisting what I'm saying here somehow and I'm not sure why.

                                                          So you think a guy like this is going to think his hand is good on the flop but when the big scary 10 comes he should muck? Doubtful.

                                                          I was using Viper's reasoning to explain as to why is was so standard, I never said that's exactly what the fish is thinking/working out. But it actually would be similar to what someone would be thinking. While we talk about equity against ranges and the like, the fish simply thinks is my hand still good. It's essentially the same thing, just a less advanced decision making method.

                                                          Ross gives us a lesson on the correct use of your and you're. For more, check out youryoure.com

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by andyw1291 View Post
                                                            I wouldn't say it was a bad call by villan, its a hero call, its just that he has to put me on exactly the hand I have and after I had tried to bluff him once Im less likely to try and bluff him again.
                                                            Not really a hero cal imo. He has to simple realise that you don't always have a king. Which you don't. A basic grasp of pot odds and he'll know he only needs to be good 1 out of 3 times

                                                            Originally posted by Bubbleboy View Post
                                                            Obv not given spoiler but I'd def be expecting him to fold.
                                                            Like you'd hardly call it standard?
                                                            If he likes his hand enough why isn't he jamming flop.
                                                            If you, hypothetically, knew that he held JJ at the time. Would you still think that you could C/R flop and shove turn to get him to fold . I wouldn't.
                                                            The line is fine verses his whole range, but verses the top his range (JJ+ KJ+) I'm expecting to be called and need to hit one of my outs.


                                                            As I said, the line taken is fine. But personally, I'd rather c/c flop and play all streets.

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              You played your hand very face up to me. Not a hero call by him at all, I'd snap you here expecting to see a FD most of the time. The fact that you turned the combo makes your shove on the turn standard enough thou.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by Caf View Post
                                                                You're twisting what I'm saying here somehow and I'm not sure why.

                                                                So you think a guy like this is going to think his hand is good on the flop but when the big scary 10 comes he should muck? Doubtful.

                                                                I was using Viper's reasoning to explain as to why is was so standard, I never said that's exactly what the fish is thinking/working out. But it actually would be similar to what someone would be thinking. While we talk about equity against ranges and the like, the fish simply thinks is my hand still good. It's essentially the same thing, just a less advanced decision making method.

                                                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v30q6VkphbE
                                                                Thanks for the grammar lesson chief.

                                                                My point is that a a fish shouldn't think he is good since he doesn't have the info that us(hopefully) competent players have. Give reasoning as to why a fish should think he is good and not a competent player. He HATES the king. He is simply calling because he can't fold. Not because of the reasons that me or you might call. To answer Mellor, I personally would be sick if I was called off by a weak player here,I would play hand like so and expect him to fold any less than a king. Do we think it's a bad shove against this villain since our only way of winning is hitting the river?
                                                                Last edited by Bubbleboy; 28-03-12, 03:04. Reason: Grammar Police lolzerz

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by Bubbleboy View Post
                                                                  To answer Mellor, I personally would be sick if I was called off by a weak player here,I would play hand like so and expect him to fold any less than a king. Do we think it's a bad shove against this villain since our only way of winning is hitting the river?
                                                                  I don't think we should be expecting a fold from QQ or JJ with our line. Even he knows we have a king 65% of the time when we shove turn he has to call with JJ. He might fold, that's a bonus. But we shouldn't expect it to be only a K can call when contemplating c/r and shove.

                                                                  It doesn't matter if the shove is good or bad verses this villain specifically when he is holding JJ. It only matters verses his whole range. Which imo, its a good shove. Even verses a K we have decent equity.
                                                                  Last edited by Mellor; 28-03-12, 22:53.

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by Bubbleboy View Post
                                                                    Thanks for the grammar lesson chief.
                                                                    You're welcome

                                                                    Originally posted by Bubbleboy View Post
                                                                    My point is that a a fish shouldn't think he is good since he doesn't have the info that us(hopefully) competent players have. Give reasoning as to why a fish should think he is good and not a competent player. He HATES the king. He is simply calling because he can't fold. Not because of the reasons that me or you might call.
                                                                    What do you mean he doesn't have the info that we have? Did it say in OP that he was blind?

                                                                    I'm not psychic, I don't know what he was thinking. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work it out. We can go around in circles if you like. I think a monkey could make that call, you think you have to be competent to do it. So be it...

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by Caf View Post
                                                                      You're welcome



                                                                      What do you mean he doesn't have the info that we have? Did it say in OP that he was blind?

                                                                      I'm not psychic, I don't know what he was thinking. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work it out. We can go around in circles if you like. I think a monkey could make that call, you think you have to be competent to do it. So be it...
                                                                      YOU'RE twisting what I'm saying and I'm not sure why :/

                                                                      I didn't once refer to the player's sight,smell or indeed any of his senses.

                                                                      I referred to skill level and thought processing.

                                                                      I don't think it's a call we'd expect from a bad player and you do.
                                                                      'Spose we can leave it at that.

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by Bubbleboy View Post
                                                                        YOU'RE twisting what I'm saying and I'm not sure why :/

                                                                        I didn't once refer to the player's sight,smell or indeed any of his senses.

                                                                        I referred to skill level and thought processing.

                                                                        I don't think it's a call we'd expect from a bad player and you do.
                                                                        'Spose we can leave it at that.
                                                                        Not sure what I'm twisting. I was the one who a comment about him being blind because all the info he needs is to be able to see his cards and the board. I thought that would have been clear enough from how I phrased it tbh.

                                                                        Yup, GG.

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          We can get it in vs worse draws too.

                                                                          This is pretty much the best hand he can show up with here and we still have good equity.

                                                                          C/r and getting it in has the benefits of our hand has good equity to begin with and we can stack off vs worse draws sometimes.

                                                                          C/c keeps our range wide and allows us the chance to blow him off the pot on a later street if we don't get there.

                                                                          Comment

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