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Meanwhile , deep in the SCOOP #27

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    Meanwhile , deep in the SCOOP #27

    Okay heres one for you chaps. I think I made the wrong play here but maybe just need to hear a few angles.


    19,000 Seater SCOOP online game $11NLH

    Im pretty deep down to the last 480 players and sitting around 300th place, but starting to get a little under pressure.
    The table has been tight with most players raising preflop around 5-10% of hands and 2 players are more active raising 15% (mid) and 20% (BB)

    Blinds 2k-4k

    Mid- (50k - ) – raises to 12k
    Me in Mid (90k) – Raises to 28k with 99
    BB (100k) – Shoves….


    Not where I wanted to be. The SB folds..

    The chaps was aggressive and I had the chance to take my stack up to almost 200k for a call of 62k, of course risking my tourney life..

    #2
    Call. We're getting slightly better than 2:1 on the call so it's run good time.

    Comment


      #3
      You have to call now getting > 2/1

      I prefer a flat pre usually but given stack size of the opener r/c is fine

      Comment


        #4
        call all day long

        Comment


          #5
          Shove pre unless you want to induce a spaz behind (which based on limited info given you shouldn't)
          Pining for Wa'erford

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by sligboi View Post
            Shove pre unless you want to induce a spaz behind (which based on limited info given you shouldn't)
            +1 on this, I think reraise folding is a bad play unless it's literally a min reraise fold which I don't mind. There is 18k in the middle(plus ante's surely?) so that's 1/5 of your stack so I shove here
            As played I think you have to peel off the call with 28k inside and an aggressive bb
            Go big or go homeless.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by sligboi View Post
              Shove pre unless you want to induce a spaz behind (which based on limited info given you shouldn't)
              Shoving looks weaker than r/c imo as most people would not shove 23bbs with QQ+

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by mcnugget View Post
                Shoving looks weaker than r/c imo as most people would not shove 23bbs with QQ+
                They do
                Pining for Wa'erford

                Comment


                  #9
                  It's a pretty tough spot vs the 2 most aggressive players @ the table.
                  I don't mind your raise here, ur never folding Vs the original raiser but ur allowing urself a little chance to get away from huge action behind and also allowing the OR to spazz.
                  Ur other option is to fold pre but 99 is just about too good to do that with.
                  It's actually close. What range are u putting BB on?
                  For me it'd be 1010+ AK+ (I'd be surprised to see AQ but I guess u'd have to allow for it a small % of the time given dynamics). U were on table so were u thinking similar?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Aggressive or not, after a raise then reraise, his range just got narrowed way down. No matter how aggressive a player, when it so deep and after so much action he's probably not expecting me to fold after commuting 1/3 of my stack, and the initial raiser is also still to act. So more than high chance he's got a premium hand

                    I called of course but did think about folding and maybe should have. I'm desperately hoping for AK (or AQ although less likely its another chance to flip with great odds) but the odds of 10s or better were pretty likely and I thought about going to the muck, as a lot of hands were 80% on. At the very best im only slightly ahead if he does have AK,AQ. Anything else and I'm in trouble. There's just nothing he could have shoved with here that that I'm beating.

                    I think I also should have just flatted the initial raise rather than committing a 1/3 of my stack in mid position, then I could have folded to a shove or maybe called a smaller raise.

                    He had AK in the end, and flopped the king. ... Oh and it was 6am. Stayed up all night for a $50 profit...
                    Last edited by dbinit; 18-05-12, 22:49.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Flatting here wouldn't be good, I'd do it with a premium alright but with 99 you have to define your hand and raise (or fold) - against a more active than average player raising is ok, your sizing is ok also (maybe given stacks u could go a touch less). If u put him on that range and think that he's folding AQ quite often then given your tournament life is on the line it's really close.
                      Just to reemphasise flatting here is much worse than playing it as you did.
                      Raise>fold>call and I don't like shoving given stacks, description of OP and positions.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by dbinit View Post
                        Aggressive or not, after a raise then reraise, his range just got narrowed way down. No matter how aggressive a player, when it so deep and after so much action he's probably not expecting me to fold after commuting 1/3 of my stack, and the initial raiser is also still to act. So more than high chance he's got a premium hand

                        I called of course but did think about folding and maybe should have. I'm desperately hoping for AK (or AQ although less likely its another chance to flip with great odds) but the odds of 10s or better were pretty likely and I thought about going to the muck, as a lot of hands were 80% on. At the very best im only slightly ahead if he does have AK,AQ. Anything else and I'm in trouble. There's just nothing he could have shoved with here that that I'm beating.

                        I think I also should have just flatted the initial raise rather than committing a 1/3 of my stack in mid position, then I could have folded to a shove or maybe called a smaller raise.


                        He had AK in the end, and flopped the king. ... Oh and it was 6am. Stayed up all night for a $50 profit...
                        BB has 25BBs which is far from being deep.

                        the first thing that you should consider before making your decesion is really hand ranges and your equity.

                        this seems to be the only thing that you don't consider .i've read several posts from you and i've never really seen you talk about factors that count.

                        it's very important to put people on actuall ranges from the get go and on every stage during the hand.

                        BBs range here imo is like TT+,AJs+,AQo+ and also some sc ,random bluffs seen as he is aggro .
                        i think against that range 99 is like 36-40% equity(dont have stove here so could be wrong)

                        now your getting a little better than 2:1 on your call which means you really only need around 30% or so to make it a break-even call.

                        you could argue for a fold if it was a break-even call(i would still make the call though being this far out of real money) .

                        but giving up 6-10% edge here is not really good imo.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post
                          BB has 25BBs which is far from being deep.

                          the first thing that you should consider before making your decesion is really hand ranges and your equity.

                          this seems to be the only thing that you don't consider .i've read several posts from you and i've never really seen you talk about factors that count.

                          it's very important to put people on actuall ranges from the get go and on every stage during the hand.

                          BBs range here imo is like TT+,AJs+,AQo+ and also some sc ,random bluffs seen as he is aggro .
                          i think against that range 99 is like 36-40% equity(dont have stove here so could be wrong)

                          now your getting a little better than 2:1 on your call which means you really only need around 30% or so to make it a break-even call.

                          you could argue for a fold if it was a break-even call(i would still make the call though being this far out of real money) .

                          but giving up 6-10% edge here is not really good imo

                          .
                          Im glad to see im not the only one who thought it was a real tough spot. this is jsut my take on it afterwards , and i still think i should have folded. Here's why.

                          His hand ranges here are the mainthing im considering.. When i said Deep though , i actually meant we are 6hrs into an online tourney with 18,500 gone and 480ish left. Prob wansnt very clear about that. For sure the stacks were not all that deep. So when so deep (as in not deep stacked) , im assuming the BB has a much tighter range after his 4 bet. After all he has seen a rasie from mid/early position (indicating some strength) , then a re-raise from a player with a tight image in mid(me, indicating a lot of strength) ... Who but the craziest players could now shove here with air , or even AJ or low pairs is crazy, when a call looks likely. Dont forget hes been playing for 6hrs and is getting close to the real money. This cats for sure got a premium hand nearly all the time, and that is the only factor that counts im thinking.. AS far as i can figure he is only doing this with 10s or better and AK..

                          So lets look at the fold equity... AK is just over twice as likely as any pair.. there are 5 pairs he is likely to be on. Im ruling out anything below 9s with a 4 bet at this stage of the tourney. So with 5 pairs at 80% against my 99's and and AK being twice as likely i make it 2/7 possible hands being a flip. Adding that all up (5 x 80% +2 x50% / 7) , hes winning around 70% of the time with the range im putting him on. Even if i factor in a bluff with say suited undercard connectors or similar , my odds only improve silghtly as there are 7 much more likely hands.

                          Ive got 15BBs left if i fold , and im sure there would have been a better spot to get them in and get to 130000 (eg taking the blinds and winnig a flip ). Right now im getting 200k if i win , but only got approx 30% equity on the hand.. Not to forget , its also my touranment at stake and 70% of the time , im going home.. (or to bed in this case)

                          the majority say call here , but i still think fold .. However im happy to bow to superior knowledge..

                          Tough spot from all angles though..

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                            Flatting here wouldn't be good, I'd do it with a premium alright but with 99 you have to define your hand and raise (or fold) - against a more active than average player raising is ok, your sizing is ok also (maybe given stacks u could go a touch less). If u put him on that range and think that he's folding AQ quite often then given your tournament life is on the line it's really close.
                            Just to reemphasise flatting here is much worse than playing it as you did.
                            Raise>fold>call and I don't like shoving given stacks, description of OP and positions.
                            For sure , i agree defining my hand would give me more info on the BB shove. Flatting could have got me in trouble too. i think a touch less on my bet sizing would have made sense. Maybe just doubling the initial raise would have given me as much info on the shove yet more fold equity...

                            hindsight in poker...

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by dbinit View Post
                              Im glad to see im not the only one who thought it was a real tough spot. this is jsut my take on it afterwards , and i still think i should have folded. Here's why.

                              His hand ranges here are the mainthing im considering.. When i said Deep though , i actually meant we are 6hrs into an online tourney with 18,500 gone and 480ish left. Prob wansnt very clear about that. For sure the stacks were not all that deep. So when so deep (as in not deep stacked) , im assuming the BB has a much tighter range after his 4 bet. After all he has seen a rasie from mid/early position (indicating some strength) , then a re-raise from a player with a tight image in mid(me, indicating a lot of strength) ... Who but the craziest players could now shove here with air , or even AJ or low pairs is crazy, when a call looks likely. Dont forget hes been playing for 6hrs and is getting close to the real money. This cats for sure got a premium hand nearly all the time, and that is the only factor that counts im thinking.. AS far as i can figure he is only doing this with 10s or better and AK..

                              So lets look at the fold equity... AK is just over twice as likely as any pair.. there are 5 pairs he is likely to be on. Im ruling out anything below 9s with a 4 bet at this stage of the tourney. So with 5 pairs at 80% against my 99's and and AK being twice as likely i make it 2/7 possible hands being a flip. Adding that all up (5 x 80% +2 x50% / 7) , hes winning around 70% of the time with the range im putting him on. Even if i factor in a bluff with say suited undercard connectors or similar , my odds only improve silghtly as there are 7 much more likely hands.

                              Ive got 15BBs left if i fold , and im sure there would have been a better spot to get them in and get to 130000 (eg taking the blinds and winnig a flip ). Right now im getting 200k if i win , but only got approx 30% equity on the hand.. Not to forget , its also my touranment at stake and 70% of the time , im going home.. (or to bed in this case)

                              the majority say call here , but i still think fold .. However im happy to bow to superior knowledge..

                              Tough spot from all angles though..
                              ok i got the deep part so that's that.

                              but i don't agree that he never 4bets there with a bluff and the fact that if he does ,he is a bad player.i think it's a sign of a good player to be able to 4bet jam there lite.

                              it's a good play for the very reasons you mentioned.
                              it's play that screems strenght and will out alot of better hands.
                              it's very good to be able to do this and sign of a good player to be able to look for spots like this.

                              also AK is not twice as likely as any pair but more like 3 times as likely.
                              there are 16 combos of AK and 6 combos of any pp so it's closer like 3times as likely.


                              also the fact that he has been playing for 6hours doesn't really make that much of a difference to his range.
                              if it were on the bubble or you were already in the bubble and there was a huge pay jump with every eliminiation,then yes but not know.

                              what matters now are the blinds and stacks relative to blinds.

                              i dont think it's a though spot really though

                              my written english is not the best man so i hope this all makes sense.
                              Last edited by Gholimoli; 19-05-12, 10:10.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post
                                ok i got the deep part so that's that.

                                but i don't agree that he never 4bets there with a bluff and the fact that if he does ,he is a bad player.i think it's a sign of a good player to be able to 4bet jam there lite.

                                it's a good play for the very reasons you mentioned.
                                it's play that screems strenght and will out alot of better hands.
                                it's very good to be able to do this and sign of a good player to be able to look for spots like this.

                                also AK is not twice as likely as any pair but more like 3 times as likely.
                                there are 16 combos of AK and 6 combos of any pp so it's closer like 3times as likely.


                                also the fact that he has been playing for 6hours doesn't really make that much of a difference to his range.
                                if it were on the bubble or you were already in the bubble and there was a huge pay jump with every eliminiation,then yes but not know.

                                what matters now are the blinds and stacks relative to blinds.

                                i dont think it's a though spot really though

                                my written english is not the best man so i hope this all makes sense.
                                For sure some points i agree with and my bad on the AK odds. Was in my head as just over twice as likely but its just over 2.5 as likely as rightly you say, but I still think he could rarely be light. Yes agression is great maybe with 2 limpers or something , but hes gotta put me on a medium > pair or AQ > at worst, and a bigger range with the opener. Theres a very good chance one of us has a premium hand here and with me almost committed i cant see that shoving with air here is good play as he is so likely to get looked up. And as we can see from the overall consensus , everyone would call in my position with likely the worse part of the range he would put me on.

                                But hey , thats why its a great game.. so much to consider when the are so few choices.

                                Comment

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