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    collusion? situation?

    im putting this up as i want peoples opinion but dont want to implicate anyone but for some reason this hand/situation pissed me off little bit

    playing last night a well known club and we are 4 handed with 3 pretty well know players all knowing each other pretty well

    chip counts may/may not make a difference
    Hero SB, 2nd in chips with 180K
    BB is chip litterl with about 220K
    UG has about 140K
    Button has about 140K
    these all rough est but shows that not much in differenc of stack

    blinds 2k/4k (500 ante)
    UG folds
    Button Flats
    Hero calls (K5)
    BB checks

    Flop 544
    hero bets 12k
    BB Flats
    Button All In

    hero folds
    when i fold BB and button start discussion
    basically the BB says folds
    button turns over AA
    then BB turns over J4

    what are people opinion on this play
    ask me any question but i dont think hand can be folded 4 handed in the wolrd Series no mind a €40 FO on a wednesday night

    #2
    Originally posted by Maddogg View Post
    im putting this up as i want peoples opinion but dont want to implicate anyone but for some reason this hand/situation pissed me off little bit

    playing last night a well known club and we are 4 handed with 3 pretty well know players all knowing each other pretty well

    chip counts may/may not make a difference
    Hero SB, 2nd in chips with 180K
    BB is chip litterl with about 220K
    UG has about 140K
    Button has about 140K
    these all rough est but shows that not much in differenc of stack

    blinds 2k/4k (500 ante)
    UG folds
    Button Flats
    Hero calls (K5)
    BB checks

    Flop 544
    hero bets 12k
    BB Flats
    Button All In

    hero folds
    when i fold BB and button start discussion
    basically the BB says folds
    button turns over AA
    then BB turns over J4

    what are people opinion on this play
    ask me any question but i dont think hand can be folded 4 handed in the wolrd Series no mind a €40 FO on a wednesday night
    Hero fold gone wrong. Lol at the play though, not yours but everything else

    Also if stack sizes are right then It's a good structure for a €40 game of a Wednesday night
    Redbet at the Dublin Poker Invasion FTW

    Comment


      #3
      Pretty horrendous fold but would be hard to say its collusion. (also fold the K5 from the sb )

      Comment


        #4
        What was the discussion about?
        Just seen it was heads up.

        Soft play does go on the usually between old school players and people of the same nationality the whole time.

        The thing about the j4 fold is some players would fold it.
        I know it sounds nuts but people laddering or really stuck for the loots could fold it.

        The thing with this is how do we prove collusion- softplay its obv a rediculous fold
        but can a td prove it was softplay or collusion?

        Comment


          #5
          Impossible to prove soft-play from one hand. What was the discussion about?
          Redbet at the Dublin Poker Invasion FTW

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by bustamoves
            Players know each other well, you just said it yourself so AA holder can find a fold here if he figures villain only goes all in with a 4 here.

            Presumably there was no flush draw on the flop.

            Of course it looks a bad fold but if you know a player well enough it can be made.

            Lastly, they both show. Not the kind of thing you do if you are colluding presumably. Bet the AA holder prob showboating his read more than anything and that's why you get to see both holdings.
            You do know that the J4 folded on a 544 flop to a shove?

            @ Maddogg, you'll know yourself whether it was collusion or not by the reaction of the 2 players in the hand once the cards were shown. The AA guy could have genuinely been trying to save the other guy money, but the J4 fold is just either completely atrocious, or else he just doesn't want to bust his mate. Showing it was madness anyway

            I posted this before

            Reminds me of the time i was playing in the Sporting and was sitting next to a guy i knew from Breaks casino. I'd raised with QQ and got a few callers. Flop is 852 and he starts kicking me under the table. Guy leads out, matey raises while kicking me. I fold my queens, the other guy folds and matey shows K8. Not in anyway was he trying to angle me. He genuinely thought he had the absolute nuts and was saving me money
            He could have been just a fool like this guy. Probably not collusion, just a pair of idiots and sounds like a good game to be involved in

            Comment


              #7
              @FD....your right..
              Dow...misread

              J4 folds seems awful alright. Ignore my prev post plz.....this is fairly suss alright but again it's mindboggling amazing what people can do in live spots in a 40 euro freeze out or 1/2 cash game and it's genuinely not collusion (

              (have you ever made a really bad fold before or say levelled yourself into what you later realise is a ridiculous fold?...I'm sure you have and if cards were somehow turned over it could look dodgy...in this case the cards being shown might have been a trade off....j4 says he wants to see if Button shows or some such clowning around but even so it's pretty bizarre and highly suspicious scenario).

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Maddogg View Post
                im putting this up as i want peoples opinion but dont want to implicate anyone but for some reason this hand/situation pissed me off little bit

                playing last night a well known club and we are 4 handed with 3 pretty well know players all knowing each other pretty well

                chip counts may/may not make a difference
                Hero SB, 2nd in chips with 180K
                BB is chip litterl with about 220K
                UG has about 140K
                Button has about 140K
                these all rough est but shows that not much in differenc of stack

                blinds 2k/4k (500 ante)
                UG folds
                Button Flats
                Hero calls (K5)
                BB checks

                Flop 544
                hero bets 12k
                BB Flats
                Button All In

                hero folds
                when i fold BB and button start discussion
                basically the BB says folds
                button turns over AA
                then BB turns over J4

                what are people opinion on this play
                ask me any question but i dont think hand can be folded 4 handed in the wolrd Series no mind a €40 FO on a wednesday night
                I'm reading this as "basically the BB tells the button to fold", this would make a lot more sense to me.
                So if this is the case, I would be pissed off. The button should go broke here and it was obvious that the discussion made the button throw AA away in a spot he normally wouldn't have.

                Don't know what you can do about it though.

                Same thing happened to me on a cash table a couple of years ago, I was in a pot with a nice guy I know but a bit naive. We both only have about 80 Euro each and I raised with (Ax4x) on a (Ax 4x 8x) flop looking to get it in. He shoved and then started talking, basically telling me to fold. I did fold and he showed me (Ax8x).
                It was a heads up pot so no-one was cheated but I didn't feel good about it so I just cashed out and went home.
                Last edited by gorrrr72; 07-02-13, 16:59. Reason: spelling

                Comment


                  #9
                  ^^^^^^^^^^
                  Confirmed Nit

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Reminds me of the time i was playing in the Sporting and was sitting next to a guy i knew from Breaks casino. I'd raised with QQ and got a few callers. Flop is 852 and he starts kicking me under the table. Guy leads out, matey raises while kicking me. I fold my queens, the other guy folds and matey shows K8. Not in anyway was he trying to angle me. He genuinely thought he had the absolute nuts and was saving me money

                    this is classic stuff -love it loling hard

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                      I'm reading this as "basically the BB tells the button to fold", this would make a lot more sense to me.
                      So if this is the case, I would be pissed off. The button should go broke here and it was obvious that the discussion made the button throw AA away in a spot he normally wouldn't have.

                      Don't know what you can do about it though.
                      Only post so far that correctly interprets OP.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                        I'm reading this as "basically the BB tells the button to fold", this would make a lot more sense to me.
                        So if this is the case, I would be pissed off. The button should go broke here and it was obvious that the discussion made the button throw AA away in a spot he normally wouldn't have.
                        Originally posted by Morihei View Post
                        Only post so far that correctly interprets OP.
                        Really?

                        Originally posted by Maddogg View Post
                        im putting this up as i want peoples opinion but dont want to implicate anyone but for some reason this hand/situation pissed me off little bit

                        playing last night a well known club and we are 4 handed with 3 pretty well know players all knowing each other pretty well

                        chip counts may/may not make a difference
                        Hero SB, 2nd in chips with 180K
                        BB is chip litterl with about 220K
                        UG has about 140K
                        Button has about 140K
                        these all rough est but shows that not much in differenc of stack

                        blinds 2k/4k (500 ante)
                        UG folds
                        Button Flats
                        Hero calls (K5)
                        BB checks

                        Flop 544
                        hero bets 12k
                        BB Flats
                        Button All In

                        hero folds
                        when i fold BB and button start discussion
                        basically the BB says folds
                        button turns over AA
                        then BB turns over J4

                        what are people opinion on this play
                        ask me any question but i dont think hand can be folded 4 handed in the wolrd Series no mind a €40 FO on a wednesday night

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Ooopps, missed that, sorry.

                          That does look suspicious but why show their hands if they were colluding. It's more than likely a case of them being mates and BB knows that button is strong there 100% of the time. Button showed no strength preflop so he must be wondering wtf he shoves with in there.

                          As for the discussion when they arrived at that spot, I guess you would have to be there to assess if it was soft play or a bad read. I still think that if it's soft play why show their hands?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I'm the UTG in this hand.
                            Couple of others pieces of the jigsaw to add.

                            SB had proposed a chop earlier
                            which was rejected by BB but
                            this is consistent with his usual response.
                            Button was shorter stacked but
                            would still be circa half the BB's stack.

                            The flop also brought a flush draw
                            which he later gave as his main concern
                            saying he didn't want to gamble.
                            My experience is that he likes to take flops
                            and exert pressure on signs of weakness
                            but is prone to folding when played back at.
                            Button is loose & 4 with a bigger kicker
                            would be within his range
                            but I can't say whether BB considered this.

                            My honest opinion is that the game was clean
                            & this was poor play but no more.
                            The fact that he folded face up supports this.

                            P.S. fold K5o OOP ya big donkey. :-P
                            Last edited by DeeBrown; 09-02-13, 09:00.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              something going on all right, who would fold J4 with 44 on the flop? no way

                              Comment


                                #16
                                You couldn't have played K5 much worse .
                                Take up knitting

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  If it was collusion theres no way he shows the J4.

                                  Also, a 6k bet instead of a full size pot bet of 12k would have got you the same information.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    all respect Connie but the pot was 14k and with the dynamic of the table a 6k bet would of got 2 insta calls with any 2 cards

                                    my simple question is to anyone out there

                                    would you fold J4 on a 445 boards 4 handed on the final table of the WSOP for 50% of your stack?



                                    PS DeeBrown, why did they agree to a chop after you got knocked out 3 hands later???
                                    PPS i had lost all interest in the tournament after that hand

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Maddogg View Post
                                      all respect Connie but the pot was 14k and with the dynamic of the table a 6k bet would of got 2 insta calls with any 2 cards

                                      my simple question is to anyone out there

                                      would you fold J4 on a 445 boards 4 handed on the final table of the WSOP for 50% of your stack?
                                      Depending on how other players are playing 95% of the time I am calling with J4 on a 445 board at a final table of the WSOP. In a E40 freezeout never in a million years am I folding. Ridiculous blatant collusion imo. This type of thing would really annoy me.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Some people are just bad players.

                                        Comment

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