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Flopping Quads - Extracting Maximum Value

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    Flopping Quads - Extracting Maximum Value

    Hi All.

    Looking for advice on river play from a hand I played at the White Sands tournament last weekend.

    UTG + 1, Hero 6h 6d. Blinds 25/50. Raised to 200. CO Villain raises to 650. No one else in, so I call.

    Flop Kd 6c 6s. Check, Villain bets 1,000, Hero flats.

    Turn 8h. Check, Villain bets 3,000, Hero tank flats.

    River Kh.

    Hero?

    I'm currently putting the guy on either a King or Pocket Aces. What's the move?

    Thanks!

    #2
    bet 7.5k?

    What are the stack sizes?
    Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

    Comment


      #3
      Stacks? Probably just jam anyway, if he has air he's not betting again and if he has a king he will call it off.

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        #4
        What were the respective stacks?

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          #5
          Apols. Stacks were 25k each give or take a few hundred each.

          If I jam and he's not got a king (i.e. Aces) he's getting away from it.

          As it turned out, he snapped with KA thankfully.

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            #6
            Originally posted by *PocketRockets* View Post
            Apols. Stacks were 25k each give or take a few hundred each.
            Sexy over bet jam imo

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              #7
              Open for less pre firstly. As played over jam me thinks

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                #8
                As I said I did jam, and he called. But going forward I'd like to work out what the optimum move would be based on the possibility he doesn't actually have a King.

                I spoke to someone after and they said they might fold with KA that early. Just to be calling for a chop most likely. Thoughts?

                Comment


                  #9
                  Check/shove river? I think if you check he may value bet(/fold) AA/QQ there hoping to get paid an extra street by JJ/TT/etc. If you bet first he may fold those hands (you rep a lot of Kx or mid-pair hands when you check/call two street) so you wouldn't extract value anyway.
                  And if he has the K chips are going in the middle anyway, so you don't have to worry about getting checked behind and missing value
                  "Poker isn’t about default strategies, it’s about exploiting your opponent's bad tendencies"

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by tglynn View Post
                    Open for less pre firstly. As played over jam me thinks
                    4X is fine, we're playing 500 BB's deep.
                    In JP's tournies at the weekend I was witnessing early position players continuously raising 2X and 2.25X playing 300BB stacks in level one - non sensical if they're playing legitimate hands.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                      4X is fine, we're playing 500 BB's deep.
                      In JP's tournies at the weekend I was witnessing early position players continuously raising 2X and 2.25X playing 300BB stacks in level one - non sensical if they're playing legitimate hands.
                      just me i guess, i think 3x does the same thing here

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by tglynn View Post
                        just me i guess, i think 3x does the same thing here
                        Yep, I'm prob 3/3.5X here too, it just read that u were pointing it out as a mistake on the OP's part which I don't believe it to be.

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                          Yep, I'm prob 3/3.5X here too, it just read that u were pointing it out as a mistake on the OP's part which I don't believe it to be.
                          No no , not a mistake just thought it was something to add!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                            4X is fine, we're playing 500 BB's deep.
                            In JP's tournies at the weekend I was witnessing early position players continuously raising 2X and 2.25X playing 300BB stacks in level one - non sensical if they're playing legitimate hands.
                            It really makes no difference

                            Comment


                              #15
                              He’s not putting another chip in without a king. You could of pulled the trigger early, but it makes little difference in these hands imo.
                              These flopped quads hands are so rare, and conditions where you can get paid off even more so, that playing them “perfectly” every time won’t have much impact on how good a player you are, results etc.
                              These are not the hands you need to get better at.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                He’s not putting another chip in without a king. You could of pulled the trigger early, but it makes little difference in these hands imo.
                                These flopped quads hands are so rare, and conditions where you can get paid off even more so, that playing them “perfectly” every time won’t have much impact on how good a player you are, results etc.
                                These are not the hands you need to get better at.
                                Totally disagree, it makes no difference what hand you have, all that matters is you have the best hand and want to get the most value for it. You don't get quads that often, but you do get plenty of straights, flushes etc.

                                Here it makes a huge difference whether you check or bet

                                You could construct an identical scenario where you have a more common hand than quads.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                  It really makes no difference
                                  Of course it does.

                                  There's an optimal raise for every hand, from every position, and at every stage of every format of tournament play.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                    Of course it does.

                                    There's an optimal raise for every hand, from every position, and at every stage of every format of tournament play.
                                    The deeper you are the less preflop matters. If you have 20bbs the difference between a 2.5bb raise and a 3bb raise is relatively significant. Assuming you are folding to most 3bets you save yourself half a big blind every time this happens (and half a bb is one 40th of your stack). There is very little post flop play when you are short, and most hands do not see a turn (and if they do the players are all in). That all means that your edge has to come mainly from preflop.

                                    If you have 300bbs the difference between a 2.5bb raise and a 3bb raise is almost entirely irrelavant, because so many more chips will go in post flop. Your skill at managing the size of the pot post flop becomes really important. If you have 300bbs you can call a 3bet whether you made it 2.5bbs or 3bbs.



                                    As long as you don't leak any information and it's part of a balanced strategy

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                      Totally disagree, it makes no difference what hand you have, all that matters is you have the best hand and want to get the most value for it. You don't get quads that often, but you do get plenty of straights, flushes etc.

                                      Here it makes a huge difference whether you check or bet

                                      You could construct an identical scenario where you have a more common hand than quads.
                                      I think you are taking my post up slightly wrong. I agree it makes no difference what hand we have in these spots. We simply need to get better getting max value from nuts/2nd nuts*, as thats the repeated situation we'll be in. If that was the reason for posting, say he posted 3 nutted hands. I wouldn't of commented on the quads being any different. But the only reason this hand stood out in the tourney was that it was quads. If this was 89 vrs 8x on and 7654x board, it might not have stood out as being as significant. But its one of those "indentical scenerio" you hinted at.

                                      I was getting at the motivation behind posting this specific hand, and what the OP's was aiming for. To try and think about it as no different to betting for value generally and not to worry about get the max from quads.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                        I was getting at the motivation behind posting this specific hand, and what the OP's was aiming for. To try and think about it as no different to betting for value generally and not to worry about get the max from quads.
                                        Yeah, the villain put 13 bigs pre, another 20 on the flop and had almost 100 bigs in by the turn. After the river, we're stacking his 500 bigs so doesn't need any coaching on how to extract max value..

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                                          #21
                                          I'm not even sure, are people saying I played it badly?

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by *PocketRockets* View Post
                                            I'm not even sure, are people saying I played it badly?
                                            What did you do on river?

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Went all in

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                                                #24
                                                I like your play up to the river. For me river betting in this spot is read based; how you perceive him and vice versa. If you think he's prone to folding big hands to big bets I c/r, if you feel there's any danger of him checking back I'd value bet around 3/4 pot and if you think he'd call the jam then ship the loots.
                                                http://carlmorrissey.blogspot.com/
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