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10 10 Live 1/2

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    10 10 Live 1/2

    This hand has been getting on my tits since Friday night. Only been at the table a few orbits when this hand happened. Very passive table full of local regs.

    1 / 2
    Hero is UTG +1 with 1 limper in front. Stack approx 190. Raises to 10 with 2 red 10's
    Folded to button who calls (his stack well covers having just won a big pot and he's on a bit of a heater) Everyone else releases.

    Flop comes 9 high all diamonds.
    I check - he bets 25 - I call
    Now at this point he's making an pot sized bet and hes nervous so I just don't believe. I mean would you pot it if you smashed the all diamond flop?

    Turn comes K clubs.
    I check - he bets 45 - I call.
    Obv not a great card for me which hits his range

    River 4 clubs
    I check again - he bets 65
    I ?

    Comments on the turn and what's the optimal river line?

    #2
    Just bet the flop yourself. K only smacks his range if you think he's betting the flop with 2 overs. It's a great card for you, not him. You played your hand like AK so far. How does the 4 affect the board? The 9 is the high card so there could be straight possibilites, 2 pairs etc.

    Comment


      #3
      No straight possibilities with the 4 (flop 983) Would you lead into that flop? The only reason I check/called his flop bet was due to the fact he was so nervous....


      Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
      Just bet the flop yourself. K only smacks his range if you think he's betting the flop with 2 overs. It's a great card for you, not him. You played your hand like AK so far. How does the 4 affect the board? The 9 is the high card so there could be straight possibilites, 2 pairs etc.

      Comment


        #4
        I think the mistake is made on the flop here, defo bet the flop imo, with the way the board runs I think you gotta call, your hand is pretty under-repped and u look weak so call i think

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by phanton View Post
          No straight possibilities with the 4 (flop 983) Would you lead into that flop? The only reason I check/called his flop bet was due to the fact he was so nervous....
          Shur youd be nervous with a set on that flop with two more cards to come ridiculous logic imo
          Pm for rakeback deals

          Comment


            #6
            So you are saying that live reads have no place in making a decision? He pots it on the flop. Would you do that with a flush or trips?


            Originally posted by tipp86 View Post
            Shur youd be nervous with a set on that flop with two more cards to come ridiculous logic imo
            Last edited by phanton; 09-09-12, 17:22.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by phanton View Post
              Now at this point he's making an pot sized bet and hes nervous so I just don't believe. I mean would you pot it if you smashed the all diamond flop?
              He could have a set or 2 pair

              You played the hand very strangely, I would only check call the flop if I had a plan for the rest of the hand, I don't see much value in giving up the initiative.

              I think I would probably fold the river but its pretty close. I can't see a normal player value betting worse, but then some live players just bet for no reason.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                It's a great card for you, not him.
                Not really. It's slightly better for our perceived range, but given that we are check calling, and he is betting, that should mean we fold more often, as his range for betting should be stronger.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by phanton View Post
                  So you are saying that live reads have no place in making a decision? He pots it on the flop. Would you do that with a flush or trips?
                  Live players dont think all that logical. I would bet about 17 if the pot was 25 but thats me.

                  Im just saying he can be nervous with a hell of a lot of hands that beat you.
                  Pm for rakeback deals

                  Comment


                    #10
                    anyhoo as it played out I donked off the river 65 to be shown K9 for two pair.

                    The consensus here seems to be to donk into him on the flop but I still struggle with that line but heh you guys know better than me.

                    Thanks for the feedback...

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by phanton View Post
                      anyhoo as it played out I donked off the river 65 to be shown K9 for two pair.

                      The consensus here seems to be to donk into him on the flop but I still struggle with that line but heh you guys know better than me.

                      Thanks for the feedback...
                      You raised preflop, so if you bet the flop its called a c-bet, not a donk. They have very different dynamics.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Technically you aren't donking into him. After showing the aggression you are c-betting on the flop. But the thing it is a very difficult flop for you; Overpair and a flush draw albeit an average draw. Donking is when you call a raise pre and then lead out into the aggressor

                        edit: HJ bet me to it. Watching golf and posting is effort
                        Redbet at the Dublin Poker Invasion FTW

                        Comment


                          #13
                          K in his hand?
                          ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by tipp86 View Post
                            Live players dont think all that logical. I would bet about 17 if the pot was 25 but thats me.

                            Im just saying he can be nervous with a hell of a lot of hands that beat you.
                            u bet 17 into a 25 pot???

                            thats pretty bad tbh

                            Comment


                              #15
                              As played id prob fold the turn. Not check calling a near to pot sized bet a second time anyway but if i called the turn im not folding the river when it blanks. Why not raise the flop if you thought he was weak instead of letting him get there?

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by brady23 View Post
                                u bet 17 into a 25 pot???

                                thats pretty bad tbh
                                Please explain why?

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  ...cause I butchered the hand....!

                                  Originally posted by shano1888 View Post
                                  As played id prob fold the turn. Not check calling a near to pot sized bet a second time anyway but if i called the turn im not folding the river when it blanks. Why not raise the flop if you thought he was weak instead of letting him get there?

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by phanton View Post
                                    ...cause I butchered the hand....!
                                    lol man, im good at that myself.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                      Please explain why?
                                      Well imo the board texture is not one.which.is.often bluffed on in many 1-2 live cash games and will often be quite.a.straight forward hand, either they have a hand.or they dont!

                                      For that reason betting 70% of the pot is not good imo , in most spots the smaller c-bet is.just as effective.while not inflating a pot.

                                      I bet like 12e on the flop, I think the smaller bet quite simply will achieve the.same result, whatever hand that calls 12e will call 17e on this board so why.inflate this pot oop seems a.little needless

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by brady23 View Post
                                        Well imo the board texture is not one.which.is.often bluffed on in many 1-2 live cash games and will often be quite.a.straight forward hand, either they have a hand.or they dont!

                                        For that reason betting 70% of the pot is not good imo , in most spots the smaller c-bet is.just as effective.while not inflating a pot.

                                        I bet like 12e on the flop, I think the smaller bet quite simply will achieve the.same result, whatever hand that calls 12e will call 17e on this board so why.inflate this pot oop seems a.little needless
                                        I don't agree at all, for one thing the board is quite wet, its almost the opposite to what you described, since any high diamond is going to call a bet. In any case I think a 75% pot bet is better than a 50% pot bet out of position,except in unusual circumstances. It's a mistake to give your opponents too attractive odds

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                          I don't agree at all, for one thing the board is quite wet, its almost the opposite to what you described, since any high diamond is going to call a bet. In any case I think a 75% pot bet is better than a 50% pot bet out of position,except in unusual circumstances. It's a mistake to give your opponents too attractive odds
                                          I never suggested it wasn't wet so I dunno why that is the opposite of what I think.

                                          I juist think that betting 17e inflates the pot needlessly when any hand that is calling 12e on this board also calls 17e. I just can't think of a range of hands that a 17e bet folds out that a 12e bet doesn't?

                                          Our hand is vulnerable and so is our position so why bloat the pot with a larger bet than is needed. I understand protecting the hand but I rather take a more cautious approach here. Your average live cash player will not percieve a smaller bet as a sign of weakness nor will the evaluate your hand any differently by the size of your c-bet, especially on a board like this.

                                          Alot of the time an overcard or diamond is going to slow you down in this spot so why inflate the pot so to give the opposing player the chance to bet bigger giving you a harder decision, by betting 12e opposed to 17e you give yourself a greater opportunity to reach showdown cheaply opposed to facing a tough decision in a marginal. I just think OOP with 10s here, pot control is a better approach.
                                          Last edited by Guest; 10-09-12, 09:38.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            What HJ is saying is you WANT him calling the €17.
                                            If you had the nuts at this point I can kinda see the merit of offering better odds but at the moment you want to extract as much as possible.
                                            People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
                                            Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
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                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by brady23 View Post
                                              when any hand that is calling 12e on this board also calls 17e.
                                              I don't think this is true btw

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                                I don't think this is true btw
                                                Great point, very well explained

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  I am never checking that flop. There are far too many cards to come that are not good for your hand so what is your plan? To check call to the river hoping hes bluffing. I find a lot of the time live that with regs on this board texture will barrell with a pair and high diamond all the time. Also if hes a poor reg, hes more than likely going to repop you on the flop if he has flopped 2 pair or a set so i dont see any merit in checking the flop if your plan is to check call for the rest of the hand.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by brady23 View Post
                                                    Great point, very well explained
                                                    ty

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by brady23 View Post
                                                      I just can't think of a range of hands that a 17e bet folds out that a 12e bet doesn't?
                                                      And making an extra €5 is bad why? I'd bet closer to €20 if anything. We're in great shape vs an average live players continuing range so our sole aim should be to extract as much as possible. We have a decent redraw vs all sets/2P/worse flushes so pot controlling to avoid getting it in vs the rare combo we're in terrible shape against is going to lose us a lot of value here long term (not just €5 obv, a bigger pot on turn/river means we can extract more with larger bets there too). just b/gii, or c/r/gii with aggressive positional reads and if you feel villain will tool out flops with any piece but likely slow down on scary turns
                                                      Last edited by Winning!; 10-09-12, 15:11.
                                                      "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

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