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    Hero Fold?

    Villain is good (by good I mean he is tight and I haven't seen him do anything stupid). No recent history.

    Here's my notes on him:

    I 4bet folded to him
    raised his flop bet, he called and check folded turn. Dont bluff next time!



    He raises in EP, I call on button with KJo. Bad but irrelevant player calls in blinds.


    Flop is 9T5, two spades. I have the K of spades. Villain bets, I call.

    Turn is a 9. He checks and I misclick and check. Meant to bet here but didn't.

    River is a Q. He checks, I bet 2/3 pot. He tank shoves all in. We started with 100bbs. Its a little over 30bbs for me to call. I have a straight.

    Edit, its 25 50 and the fish folds the flop. Flush not possible on river.
    Last edited by Hectorjelly; 07-03-12, 04:10.

    #2
    Standard call surely?
    We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then is not an act, but a habit.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by dannydiamond View Post
      Standard call surely?
      What hands do I beat bar a bluff?

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
        What hands do I beat bar a bluff?
        is this some sort of joke? honestly i am begining to wonder

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          #5
          Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
          is this some sort of joke? honestly i am begining to wonder
          What value hands take this line? Because I'm being bluffed here almost never.

          Comment


            #6
            If he is good it's a great spot for him to do this even if he is bluffing, as HJ says hes almost never bluffing here but its a good play by him if he is tracking HJ with notes as well.

            Folding here against a player like this is more profitable in the long term.

            For the people that think it's a standard call what hand range do you asign him that he checks all three streets and cr all in? His range should be polarised to sets and more likely tens imo

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
              is this some sort of joke? honestly i am begining to wonder
              When a tight player check raises you all in on the river he tends to have the nuts or close to it. I'm not saying its a fold, but if you can't see why it isn't an instant call you have no business making sarcastic comments in the thread.

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                #8
                Would you check back the flush draw on the turn here or a 9? He may think you are FOS on the river.

                Check shove looks very strong in this situation, prob fold a lot here I think vs good player

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by ghostface ste View Post
                  Would you check back the flush draw on the turn here or a 9? He may think you are FOS on the river.

                  Check shove looks very strong in this situation, prob fold a lot here I think vs good player
                  I'd probably bet both (definitely 9) but I don't know what he thinks I would do. I agree my hand looks light, but in that case he is way more likely to just lead the river himself. Check raising the river to fold a bluff would be pretty sophisticated play.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by ghostface ste View Post
                    Would you check back the flush draw on the turn here or a 9? He may think you are FOS on the river.

                    Check shove looks very strong in this situation, prob fold a lot here I think vs good player
                    well i am presuming the turn and river did not complete the FD

                    ok

                    value hands he can decide to take this line with are KJ, AA, KK, 9x and because of your image i reckon he can decide it might be worth going as thin as QT, AQ and possibly even KQ (again given the two notable hands he has of you added to the fact that your range does not look that strong. i mean you rarely have a 9 as you would bet that on the turn, also he knows you rarely have a Full House as you would most likely have went for another flop raise). your range looks like Qx and Tx and obv you show up with the KJ every so often but so be it.

                    obv you are expecting to see him flip over either a Full House/quad 9s some decent amount but you are also going to see him show up with the above range enough to make it an easy call given pot odds

                    u are getting something like 6/1 on the river call iirc? i dont even think this should be categorised as a 'hero fold' given it seems such a trivial call now

                    edit: i dont expect him to have many bluffs at all, rather mostly goin for thin value..if there is potentially ever a bluff or two in there then great, more of a call obv)
                    Last edited by bustamoves; 07-03-12, 03:09.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                      well i am presuming the turn and river did not complete the FD

                      ok

                      value hands he can decide to take this line with are KJ, AA, KK, 9x and because of your image i reckon he can decide it might be worth going as thin as QT, AQ and possibly even KQ (again given the two notable hands he has of you added to the fact that your range does not look that strong. i mean you rarely have a 9 as you would bet that on the turn, also he knows you rarely have a Full House as you would most likely have went for another flop raise). your range looks like Qx and Tx and obv you show up with the KJ every so often but so be it.

                      obv you are expecting to see him flip over either a Full House/quad 9s some decent amount but you are also going to see him show up with the above range enough to make it an easy call given pot odds

                      u are getting something like 6/1 on the river call iirc? i dont even think this should be categorised as a 'hero fold' given it seems such a trivial call now
                      Pot odds aren't as relevant in this particular hand if your assigning all the above hands that he might be value shoving on us. You think he's checking the turn and river hoping to induce a bet on the river and cr all in for thin value. That is flawed thinking
                      Last edited by mickste; 07-03-12, 03:14.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by mickste View Post
                        Pot odds aren't as relevant in this particular hand if your assigning all the above hands that he might be value shoving on us. You think he's checking three streets hoping to induce a bet on the river and cr all in for thin value. That is flawed thinking
                        he bets the flop..

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                          #13
                          The villian is noted as being tight as well, thin value bets don't make too much sense here

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by mickste View Post
                            The villian is noted as being tight as well, thin value bets don't make too much sense here
                            our range looks weakish when we check the turn. so on the river he has two options with his value range. 1. bet and probably see us fold mostly. 2. check again and look as if he may have given up and it may possibly induce a bet. in his shoes i think its clever to go for option two. also he knows we are a good player, knows we will make a play at the pot (as he's seen before on two notable hands) and so i prefer option two in his shoes...

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                              #15
                              I agree with your option 2 i just think it's nearly always going to have us beat in this spot

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                well i am presuming the turn and river did not complete the FD

                                ok

                                value hands he can decide to take this line with are KJ, AA, KK, 9x and because of your image i reckon he can decide it might be worth going as thin as QT, AQ and possibly even KQ (again given the two notable hands he has of you added to the fact that your range does not look that strong. i mean you rarely have a 9 as you would bet that on the turn, also he knows you rarely have a Full House as you would most likely have went for another flop raise). your range looks like Qx and Tx and obv you show up with the KJ every so often but so be it.

                                obv you are expecting to see him flip over either a Full House/quad 9s some decent amount but you are also going to see him show up with the above range enough to make it an easy call given pot odds

                                u are getting something like 6/1 on the river call iirc? i dont even think this should be categorised as a 'hero fold' given it seems such a trivial call now

                                edit: i dont expect him to have many bluffs at all, rather mostly goin for thin value..if there is potentially ever a bluff or two in there then great, more of a call obv)
                                I don't really know where to start with this. You think he check shoves KQ or QT on the river for value? I mean this post is so off the wall I literally don't know where to begin.

                                One thing I would say is that the games I am playing in are good games. The reg's (like this one) aren't that good, and aren't that aggressive. Their river check raising ranges are pretty much 90% extremely good hand, 10% bluff. (the 10% figure is just a guess, i've never actually seen one) There is no merged range. I doubt they know what a merged range is.

                                It may well be that the games you play in are so different that your advice is good there, and I may not have done a good enough job describing the game conditions.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Just to take QT for an example. First of all he can't have it preflop. Second, given the two nines on the board, he would never expect me to call a check raise with a worse hand than a nine, so if he checked the river it would be with the intention of calling, not raising. Also he would probably just lead the river himself fearing I would check back a hand with showdown value.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                    Just to take QT for an example. First of all he can't have it preflop. Second, given the two nines on the board, he would never expect me to call a check raise with a worse hand than a nine, so if he checked the river it would be with the intention of calling, not raising. Also he would probably just lead the river himself fearing I would check back a hand with showdown value.
                                    QT may not be in this guys range, fine. some tight players will def have say QTs in their utg prf others wont, we dont know how this guy has his constructed really yet do we? anyway my point was that that was the obv the very thinner side. what about AA? can u ever see him playing AA like that?

                                    u say he would never expect u to call a c/r with a hand worse than a 9.
                                    the thing i think u are missing here is he sees a 2/3 bet by us on the river and to him it looks like we are committed either way (save when we have a total airball) he assumes we are never folding any value hand we have at this point since we'll be getting 6/1

                                    if he c/r leaving us say 50BBs or more to call then yes it becomes a much tougher spot but u have to understand how it looks from his perspective.

                                    as for your last statement....he would prob lead the river...i think i explained pretty well why i think he would be better off cking the river over betting it in my response to mickste
                                    it's not that he fears u will check behind a hand with SD value its more that he perceives our range to be weak anyway and so there is little point in betting as we will fold mostly.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Ok, this is the last time I'm posting a hand whilst actually playing - I messed this up

                                      The river bet is $30 to call, not 30bbs. So is obviously 60 big blinds which is a very different decision!

                                      Apologies to all who posted, especially bustamoves.

                                      *hangs head in shame

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                        Ok, this is the last time I'm posting a hand whilst actually playing - I messed this up

                                        The river bet is $30 to call, not 30bbs. So is obviously 60 big blinds which is a very different decision!

                                        Apologies to all who posted, especially bustamoves.

                                        *hangs head in shame

                                        ok this makes it a tough one and def in the 'hero fold' category. he's a sicko if he's bluffing here and i agree most 50nl 6max players are not doing this type of stuff too often. HU 50 nl vs good regs this spot comes up alot i find and it can often be for thin value/sophisticated bluff (obvs gonna be different when we're talking HU i know)

                                        tnx for clarification

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          this is the nizzels here more often than not. In fact I think you are chopping with the bottom of his value range. Considering the small % of time that this is a bluff I think it is losing money long term to call here

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                                            #22
                                            I hate it, but i fold here i think. 1010 makes most sense but then again maybe he took a weird line with QQ and filled up on the river.
                                            "true friends stab you in the front"

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                                              #23
                                              Do we really think he checks nutted hands to us on the river consider how passive we have played our hand?

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                                                #24
                                                I don't think it would take an ultra-capable villain to realise how good a spot this is to c/r bluff, and tbh c/r >>> b/anything vs our perceived range, I just think it would be a much smaller, callable c/r with the bladed end of his range. Since ours is mostly busted-FDs,AK-AT,KQ-KT,QJ-QT,JT,PPs we almost always bet this river when checked to, and anything we check back wouldn't have called a bet anyway(smaller PPs,Ax), thus our value range is clearly weighted towards 2P hands which are put in a really difficult spot facing this line so I would assume him capable of turning a lot of hands he was willing to check down(like Ax,PPs) into bluffs after we bet.

                                                All told we have a FH here almost never so we're top of our range facing a suspicious line when it's likewise difficult for villain to have a FH so I call.

                                                Incidentally, if we stack off this should still prove a somewhat profitable long-run metagame call since we'll have clear insight into his level of thinking and when we muck he cant assume we were at the top of our perceived range so should bluff us less often.
                                                "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Any idea of his EP raising % or do we not have enough hands on him to really infer anything from that? I'm pretty sure this is a fold, the only value hand he's raising here we're not losing to is exactly our hand and even at that he probably isn't check/shoving the river (Although he might, given we're almost never full, but I'd still assume it would be rare) and I really think we'd have to give him an awful lot of credit here to think he has many bluffs in his range, if at all. People very rarely check/shove the river bluffing or with less than a nutted hand, if we know this person is tightish and probably not that tricky that only makes it even less likely. I also think us checking back the turn makes him c/ring a hand without showdown value less likely.

                                                  I assume we'd be viewed as somewhat aggro, certainly in the context of this game? I think our goose is cooked here quite alot and it's a fold.
                                                  "In the world, there are many kings but there is only one God. I am God, I am El Tren" :{)

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                                                    Do we really think he checks nutted hands to us on the river consider how passive we have played our hand?
                                                    Whenever I think that and press call I find out that yes, they do! I do love checking back hands only to find my opponent had horribly slowplayed his monster.

                                                    Had a funny hand yesterday, it was so funny I actually had to abuse him a bit in the chat

                                                    I raise 44 utg. He calls. We are about 150bbs deep.

                                                    Flop is 4AK with a flush draw. Literally the perfect flop, I'm always ahead and there are plenty of hands he can call a number of bets with. Turn is an 8 completing the flush, he checks and I bet, he calls. River blank and he checks. I consider betting but something about his timing puts me off. I check behind (might actually be a bad check but whatever). He has AAA. If he raises the flop I would definitely have put him on AK and lost 150bbs!

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by RobotUnicorn View Post
                                                      I hate it, but i fold here i think. 1010 makes most sense but then again maybe he took a weird line with QQ and filled up on the river.
                                                      Good guess, it was in fact QQ. (I obviously called).

                                                      I think this is a standardish line with QQ; checking turn makes it hard for me to bluff him, and I like the check raise on the river.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Winning! View Post
                                                        I don't think it would take an ultra-capable villain to realise how good a spot this is to c/r bluff, and tbh c/r >>> b/anything vs our perceived range, I just think it would be a much smaller, callable c/r with the bladed end of his range. Since ours is mostly busted-FDs,AK-AT,KQ-KT,QJ-QT,JT,PPs we almost always bet this river when checked to, and anything we check back wouldn't have called a bet anyway(smaller PPs,Ax), thus our value range is clearly weighted towards 2P hands which are put in a really difficult spot facing this line so I would assume him capable of turning a lot of hands he was willing to check down(like Ax,PPs) into bluffs after we bet.

                                                        All told we have a FH here almost never so we're top of our range facing a suspicious line when it's likewise difficult for villain to have a FH so I call.

                                                        Incidentally, if we stack off this should still prove a somewhat profitable long-run metagame call since we'll have clear insight into his level of thinking and when we muck he cant assume we were at the top of our perceived range so should bluff us less often.
                                                        Well put. I agree completely.
                                                        "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by Winning! View Post
                                                          I don't think it would take an ultra-capable villain to realise how good a spot this is to c/r bluff, and tbh c/r >>> b/anything vs our perceived range, I just think it would be a much smaller, callable c/r with the bladed end of his range. Since ours is mostly busted-FDs,AK-AT,KQ-KT,QJ-QT,JT,PPs we almost always bet this river when checked to, and anything we check back wouldn't have called a bet anyway(smaller PPs,Ax), thus our value range is clearly weighted towards 2P hands which are put in a really difficult spot facing this line so I would assume him capable of turning a lot of hands he was willing to check down(like Ax,PPs) into bluffs after we bet.

                                                          All told we have a FH here almost never so we're top of our range facing a suspicious line when it's likewise difficult for villain to have a FH so I call.

                                                          Incidentally, if we stack off this should still prove a somewhat profitable long-run metagame call since we'll have clear insight into his level of thinking and when we muck he cant assume we were at the top of our perceived range so should bluff us less often.
                                                          I think you are thinking at too high a level for this type of game. Yes it is actually an awesome spot for a bluff, but it is a spot where players like this never bluff. What we learn from this is not to call here, but to consider bluffing in these spots ourselves. (I doubt we fold my hand, but we probably fold quite a big %). I really doubt this is a profitable stack off because of metagame reasons, we only really learn anything if he is bluffing here. How many dollars would you pay to know if he was bluffing here or not? I'd probably pay a big blind. (Barring curiosity now it's been discussed at length) If we fold the villain will just assume we didn't have that great a hand.

                                                          Thanks for all the comments everyone, sorry again for messing up the hand in the first place. I hate when people do that!

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            I agree with Winning. It is a very standard line for him to take with a boat but it is the top of our range and I think this can be a bluff more often than you would believe because once you check back turn your perceived range is quite weak. In his mind there are next to no hands in your range that can call a shove. He might not be thinking at those levels, but I think calling and finding out is too valuable also.

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