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    Top two pair

    Bray Monthly game 60 euro BI. 15k ss
    I have just arrived at the table, blinds 50/100

    I am in the SB with 10 6 off

    UTG + 1 Limps, Hijack Limps, Button limps,( 22k ish) i complete in the SB (14.6k)and the BB checks.

    5 Players

    Flop 10 6 4 rainbow.

    I lead out for 350
    UTG+1 calls
    Hijack Folds
    Button raises to 1250


    I reraise to 3400
    UTG+1 Folds
    Button goes ALL IN (has me covered)

    What do?

    No history on Villain.

    Cheers
    Disaster - Dreamcrusher

    #2
    Fold pre

    Comment


      #3
      What's you're stack size?




      Sry see now it's 14.6
      Last edited by BigDeal; 30-06-11, 12:26.

      Comment


        #4
        You've 140bbs, you're OOP & in a four way pot with 10 6 off.

        Fold pre.

        Edit - Fuck knows what your up against now if this is the way the preflop action goes - set, overpair, worse 2 pair or even straight draw? Get talking to villain & try figure out.


        Question is how likely is the button to have limped 1010 66 44 with a limp before him & the blinds behind him to act?
        Also, why would anyone jam a set here?

        Very bad play by him if its being done with JJ+

        Again unlikely he is doing this where we have him dominated which leaves the 35/57 combo which we are happy to see.

        I think it comes down to trying to get a read off him.
        Last edited by Dice75; 30-06-11, 12:43.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Emmet View Post
          Fold pre
          50 to call into a pot of 450
          Should i really be folding pre here in the SB?
          Disaster - Dreamcrusher

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Emmet View Post
            Fold pre
            This.

            I'm happy to get it in there as played.

            Comment


              #7
              Surely stacks are deep enough to justify a call pre with practically atc?

              I'd flat the flop rr. With stacks this deep I'm happy to pot control for the times we are beat and let villain continues with all his bluffs. Such a dry board he has you crushed or he's bluffing. Also 3betting means villain should be laying down most of his bluffs.

              If you are going to 3bet it should be with the intention of getting it in imo. What did you expect to happen when you make it 3.4k?

              Comment


                #8
                Agree with the fold pre but in fairness he's asking what to do now we've got here.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Caf, I think it's a fold pre cos this is exactly the type of tricky spots you can get it calling with rubbish out of the small blind.

                  What is he really repping here, overpair or 4s, 10s and 6s sometimes and bluffs. Would he really shove a set on such a dry board??

                  Comment


                    #10
                    What are we hoping to stack with 10 6 in a limped pot? This is why we fold pre. You are way overestimating your implied odds.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      You're behind to 5 hands....1 combo of 10,10 and 6,6 and 3 of 4,4. Flat the re-raise this deep. Once you 3 bet I think you have to go with it,

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by ghostface ste View Post
                        Caf, I think it's a fold pre cos this is exactly the type of tricky spots you can get it calling with rubbish out of the small blind.

                        What is he really repping here, overpair or 4s, 10s and 6s sometimes and bluffs. Would he really shove a set on such a dry board??
                        But this doesn't have to be a tricky spot, it only became tricky because we 3bet. If we bet less on flop since it's so dry, say 250 and flat the rr(which should also be smaller) we can play the hand a lot easier.

                        This is the spot we want when we call the SB with rags, we want to hit top two pair or a straight.

                        What do you mean: 'What is he really repping?' Who?



                        (back later, got to run)

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I dont agree with folding pre nessesarily.
                          Live standard I'd guess A10 & overpairs are a huge part of the range
                          People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
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                          Comment


                            #14
                            I don't mind the preflop call, as long as we're not going to call off two streets with top pair without a read. Problem I have is that you say you're new to the table so I assume we have no reads. Therefore if we don't flop hard we've no idea where we strand.

                            Obv we hit the flop very hard, but not sure I like the donk bet this deep. It should get called by worse on the flop but from there on should only be called by better hands. As played, I prob fold to the shove. He's much more likely to have set than overpair and he shouldn't be limping in with hands that make 2 pair.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by DeadParrot View Post
                              I dont agree with folding pre nessesarily.
                              Live standard I'd guess A10 & overpairs are a huge part of the range
                              Depends on the standard I guess, but 4 bet jamming with one pair in a four way limped pot against a SB on that board whilst 200bb deep would be slightly suicidal - in my world anyway

                              (Apologies to BB if he was in fact the villain with an overpair - don't go looking for a bridge please)
                              Last edited by Dice75; 30-06-11, 12:51.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                Depends on the standard I guess, but 4 bet jamming with one pair in a four way limped pot against a SB on that board whilst 200bb deep would be slightly suicidal - in my world anyway

                                (Apologies to BB if he was in fact the villain with an overpair - don't go looking for a bridge please)
                                It's fun to do tho

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by ghostface ste View Post
                                  It's fun to do tho
                                  I've done worse lately

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Any overpair should be raising pre on button with limpers already in but can't be completely ruled out I suppose, after that it could be A 10 , maybe K 10 and 6,4 suited.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by BrianByrne View Post
                                      50 to call into a pot of 450
                                      Should i really be folding pre here in the SB?
                                      Originally posted by Emmet View Post
                                      What are we hoping to stack with 10 6 in a limped pot? This is why we fold pre. You are way overestimating your implied odds.
                                      What Emmet says is exactly right.

                                      If you want to get funky & play a big pot then raise.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Ya call the buttons raise of 1250, This allows him to continue with worse hands on the turn and also disguise your hand and allow us to not stack off in a limped pot with 106o. A little pot control as caf said already.

                                        Calling the 1250 is much better than making it 3400 not knowing what to do.


                                        I'd fold pre ere
                                        https://twitter.com/#!/PadraigONeill89

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by anymorejokes View Post
                                          Ya call the buttons raise of 1250, This allows him to continue with worse hands on the turn and also disguise your hand and allow us to not stack off in a limped pot with 106o. A little pot control as caf said already.

                                          Calling the 1250 is much better than making it 3400 not knowing what to do.


                                          I'd fold pre ere
                                          Lol

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Actually the more I look at it the only hand he EVER has here is 7,5 so snap him off now

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              I'm not folding here in this type of game against an unknown
                                              Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                fold pre

                                                call now

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Bray live game you're probably up against JJ or A10 so I'd call and cry when the river 4 sends you home.
                                                  Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Fold pre because

                                                    We're in the worst position at the table against weak players who probably don't fold enough.
                                                    We have a hand that can't make any nutty type hands that would still be disguised enough to stack a marginally less nutty hand, because there really are none!
                                                    There has been no aggression shown so we can't assign a range to anyone.

                                                    T6o is just pure and utter junk here. I'd rather wath the pot play out an figure out the guys around me than waste .5bb getting involved here.

                                                    Everything about the setup screams fold
                                                    Last edited by Emmet; 30-06-11, 13:55.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                                                      fold pre

                                                      call now
                                                      agree with this...

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Im not pot controlling top two in a donk live game.

                                                        Not sure why you posted this, do you think 3bet/folding top two here is an option?
                                                        Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                                                        I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                                                        None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          I think it comes down to whatever read you have on your opponent. There are a lot of idiots out there that would jam wt top pair top kicker here. It is unlikely he has an overpair as it would normally have been raised pre. Jamming a set of 4s just doesnt make sense as he would be losing any customer with top pair. I would just go with my read in this situation, and if you feel you are ahead call, especially after 4 betting.

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Starvin Marvin View Post
                                                            Im not pot controlling top two in a donk live game.

                                                            Not sure why you posted this, do you think 3bet/folding top two here is an option?
                                                            Probably not directed at me since I gave my reasoning in my 1st post.

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Meh, call or fold pre is ok. If you're unsure what to do OOP when you flop top 2, fold pre. If you're happy to get it in if you flop top 2, then call pre.

                                                              Me, i'm happy to get it in here against A10/K10 and a random live donk. If he has 44, then you just need to bink the turn/river. Easy game really

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                I happy to call pre provided you don't go nuts on a flop not worth going nuts on. This is, unfortunately a flop worth going nuts on.

                                                                I think its a call now but that depends how crap villain is. No reads on villain I think its just about a call.

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Ye olde fist pump.
                                                                  Looking for full or part time poker and betting writers. PM if interested.

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Snappage. The nice man is trying to give you his stack, so take it.

                                                                    You're only realistically losing to 44.

                                                                    Lol @ pot controlling against what is probably a donk. Madness. Raise for value and snap off a push.

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by anymorejokes View Post
                                                                      Ya call the buttons raise of 1250, This allows him to continue with worse hands on the turn and also disguise your hand and allow us to not stack off in a limped pot with 106o. A little pot control as caf said already.

                                                                      Calling the 1250 is much better than making it 3400 not knowing what to do.


                                                                      I'd fold pre ere
                                                                      Forgot to say as played i call the allin
                                                                      https://twitter.com/#!/PadraigONeill89

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Now that you got here, you shouldnt be going anywhere! Im not folding top 2 there in a €60 game. You get to see A-10, 5-7 and 3-5 way more often than you'll see a set.

                                                                        I agree with the other posters though. Making up the bb with that kinda hand just isnt worth it. Not because of whats happened in this hand, but in general, youre just better off folding that kinda shyte in the sb!

                                                                        Connie

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          in my humble opinion u cannot fold as played close yer eyes and hope for the best that he doesnt make a better 2 pair with his A 10 , K 10, A 6, or over pair

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            60e pub game, am getting them in all day and twice on a tuesday....

                                                                            looks like you against an overpair in these games

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Calling pre is totally fine imo, like let's be realistic here guys it's a live game no1 ever folds d small blind unless it's a seriously horrible hand like 83 or 72.

                                                                              This is tough spot for u mate, pretty deep but this a smallish buy in live game and standard is bound to be poor. Set of 44s is the only realistic limp along hand on the button, he can also have bottom two 64 or 106 aswel. This is why it's so tight. I would agree with what Caf says tbh good advice! Also just cause you call with 106 and this time it was a tricky spot doesn't mean it's going to happen everytime nor will it happen enough to not call 50 into 450 or whatever it was.
                                                                              Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                              My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                              My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                what's the difference between 106o and 83o.

                                                                                Genuinely?

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  the reason I said fold pre is because if you dont know what to do when yo flop top 2 then it goes without sayong you should just muck pre

                                                                                  Its alright for Jos to say he'll call pre because hes pretty good post flop

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Thank you for all your responses, will take on board a lot of what has been said.

                                                                                    Not that it matters but for anyone interested, I folded to his 4bet All in and he showed 10 4

                                                                                    Top and Bottom

                                                                                    Again really appreciate all the feedback.
                                                                                    Disaster - Dreamcrusher

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by BrianByrne View Post
                                                                                      Thank you for all your responses, will take on board a lot of what has been said.

                                                                                      Not that it matters but for anyone interested, I folded to his 4bet All in and he showed 10 4

                                                                                      Top and Bottom

                                                                                      Again really appreciate all the feedback.
                                                                                      lol.
                                                                                      We really think too much about these things sometimes.
                                                                                      People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
                                                                                      Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
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                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by Emmet View Post
                                                                                        what's the difference between 106o and 83o.

                                                                                        Genuinely?
                                                                                        You can flop a straight with 106
                                                                                        Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                                        My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                                        My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          and what hands do we stack on an 789 flop?

                                                                                          56, 77, 88, 99, JT. But nobody really has any of these in a limped pot. (or shouldn't)

                                                                                          So there's one particular (and particularly scary) flop that we can hit massively, to not give us the nuts, and we're happy to get it in on.

                                                                                          Just doesn't make sense to me. I just think we're massively overestimating our implied odds here.

                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Originally posted by Emmet View Post
                                                                                            and what hands do we stack on an 789 flop?

                                                                                            56, 77, 88, 99, JT. But nobody really has any of these in a limped pot. (or shouldn't)

                                                                                            So there's one particular (and particularly scary) flop that we can hit massively, to not give us the nuts, and we're happy to get it in on.

                                                                                            Just doesn't make sense to me. I just think we're massively overestimating our implied odds here.
                                                                                            Just to chime in on this... I've played a ton of small buy in live, hands you mentioned turn up in limped pots all the time with JT being the live limp magnet!

                                                                                            For Brian I'm limping pre as you did. Don't like the 3 bet if you're not snapping off a shove, I'd maybe flat call when he raises you. As played call and expect to be good. I assume the guy with 10 4 gave the auld "THEY WERE SOOOTED" speech proudly showing his 10 fucking 4.
                                                                                            http://carlmorrissey.blogspot.com/
                                                                                            http://twitter.com/#!/Moro88

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              Originally posted by Carl_Morrissey View Post
                                                                                              Just to chime in on this... I've played a ton of small buy in live, hands you mentioned turn up in limped pots all the time with JT being the live limp magnet!

                                                                                              For Brian I'm limping pre as you did. Don't like the 3 bet if you're not snapping off a shove, I'd maybe flat call when he raises you. As played call and expect to be good. I assume the guy with 10 4 gave the auld "THEY WERE SOOOTED" speech proudly showing his 10 fucking 4.
                                                                                              which absolutely crushes us.

                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                Originally posted by Emmet View Post
                                                                                                which absolutely crushes us.
                                                                                                It does but there's very specific flops where we play a big pot with the T6. This happens to be one of them. If it comes T25 for example we lose maybe one bet OOP.
                                                                                                http://carlmorrissey.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                http://twitter.com/#!/Moro88

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                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Originally posted by Emmet View Post
                                                                                                  and what hands do we stack on an 789 flop?

                                                                                                  56, 77, 88, 99, JT. But nobody really has any of these in a limped pot. (or shouldn't)

                                                                                                  So there's one particular (and particularly scary) flop that we can hit massively, to not give us the nuts, and we're happy to get it in on.

                                                                                                  Just doesn't make sense to me. I just think we're massively overestimating our implied odds here.
                                                                                                  In those games they have all of the above in limp pots which rates 106 worth playing. Even the start of bigger tourneys ppl limp 56 sooted 78 89 77 etc in first level. Also post flop play I'm sure u can work out how to play 2pair better than op n other simple situations where u flop a 10 n checks round and you bet low turn and take down the pot or get a call by what u know is weaker hand. You get the blinds and limpers money just for 50 chips. It's worth playing overall imo anyway. I'd have no probs if you choose to fold it tho.
                                                                                                  Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                                                  My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                                                  My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    had a similar hand to this in a local game last week... may post it up tomorrow to see what you guys think was a bit weird how it played out so would like you guys opinions

                                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                                      #51
                                                                                                      Originally posted by Carl_Morrissey View Post
                                                                                                      It does but there's very specific flops where we play a big pot with the T6. This happens to be one of them. If it comes T25 for example we lose maybe one bet OOP.
                                                                                                      But it happens so rarely IMO that you should fold pre and are just burning chips in the log run

                                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                                        #52
                                                                                                        Originally posted by ghostface ste View Post
                                                                                                        But it happens so rarely IMO that you should fold pre and are just burning chips in the log run
                                                                                                        It would take 150 completed limps at this blind level to burn our chips and I'm pretty sure commiting half a blind is affordable enough here as long as we are comfortable with our post flop play in multi way pots.Because OP clearly isn't then maybe he should have folded pre here.Its worth a limp for the following reason: the way the hand has played out...GET THEM IN NOW.Live players at this level are terrible.He showed you cos he was sure he was good We shouldn't be waiting around for kings and aces in the blinds at this buyin and level as they will probably be cracked anyway!

                                                                                                        With regards to 10-6 pf in general obviously you CAN fold too,I would set a (very rough) guideline for myself of something like folding when we have less than 50bb and calling with stack above this.Just really don't think it's fair for posters to say fold pre and nothing else.10-6o OOP usually doesn't flop to0 well,but when it does,it goes a little something like it did.

                                                                                                        Its easy to say after spoiler but:Op you did everything right IMO except the fold to the all in,accurate range described as over pairs,a-10,K-10,straight draw,less two pair and same hand.Sets don't show up here often enough to fold and Cooler when they show the set which as stated would be a poor 5 bet all in.

                                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                                          #53
                                                                                                          He doesn't mean this stack he eans your tournament stack in general, i.e., if you always complete with 106 in the SB you will lose more chips than you win in the long run.

                                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                                            #54
                                                                                                            It probably is -EV in the long run to complete with T6o, but a good player is probably losing a 20th of a blind every time they do it, I'd complete here out of boredom.

                                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                                              #55
                                                                                                              Shove pre and table the 10 6o, grow a pair ffs .

                                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                                #56
                                                                                                                People say it's unprofitable to complete here with 10 6, but there's no way I'm not doing it here getting 9/1, this deep. Also, if Brian makes the call on the flop he should have here, he's freerolling for quite some time on completing his small blind.
                                                                                                                I think generally with hands like that you're not gonna lose too much. If you miss, it's pretty easy to lay down.

                                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                                  #57
                                                                                                                  Originally posted by 8611 View Post
                                                                                                                  He doesn't mean this stack he eans your tournament stack in general, i.e., if you always complete with 106 in the SB you will lose more chips than you win in the long run.
                                                                                                                  Point taken and probably true unless you run like Jesus with 10-6o but at the early stage of these tournaments you are thinking about getting a stack and risking 50 more into 450 for the chances of flopping a monster and getting stack x 2 at this stage is surely worth it.

                                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                                    #58
                                                                                                                    Originally posted by Emmet View Post
                                                                                                                    Fold pre
                                                                                                                    Love a genius. If he folded pre there would be no question to answer. So why put in a response like this???

                                                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                                                      #59
                                                                                                                      Originally posted by carlinrose View Post
                                                                                                                      Love a genius. If he folded pre there would be no question to answer. So why put in a response like this???
                                                                                                                      because the idea of these threads is to discuss optimal play.


                                                                                                                      If he'd 3bet 106o, and bet flop and turn with an gutshot, and got to the river with two overcards there and asked if he should shove, I'd still tell him to fold pre.

                                                                                                                      I prefer to answer the question that will help someone with the game, not with an anecdotal situation that they shouldn't have gotten involved in.

                                                                                                                      you'll note that I also have 2 other posts in this thread explaining why we should fold the oul T6o pre in this spot. As if that needed clarification.

                                                                                                                      it's not genius, but it's smart alright.
                                                                                                                      Last edited by Emmet; 07-07-11, 15:15.

                                                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                                                        #60
                                                                                                                        Originally posted by carlinrose View Post
                                                                                                                        Love a genius. If he folded pre there would be no question to answer. So why put in a response like this???
                                                                                                                        A lot of times the question the OP asks is irrelevant because of earlier mistakes

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