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    Hand v Downtown

    played this hand tonight in the SE v Rory Brown. Havn't been in this kind of spot before so was just looking for some input.

    blinds are at 800/1600
    Iv 25k ish and Rory has something similar maybe has me slightly covered. Iv only been at the Table a couple of orbits and nothing has happened out of the ordinary.

    anyway one terrible old guy limps
    BTN who limps too much also limps
    I complete in the SB with QTcc
    Rory checks

    Flop Q 6 Ac

    I check
    Rory leads for 1800
    other 2 fold I call.

    Turn Jc

    I think for a second and check
    Rory Quickly checks behind

    River 4d

    I fire 4k
    Rory tanks for about 10 seconds and ships the loots in

    hero does what?

    #2
    I don't like the river bet. What are you trying to get value from? C/C or C/F river imo.

    Betting puts you in the shitter when he does this exactly.

    Comment


      #3
      River bet is bad, you have the best hand a lot, but he can very rarely call with worse as you basically can't have any bluffs with the board run out.

      CC or CF depending on reads

      Fold river, it looks like you have Ax at least and he never expects you to fold it or better with your stacksize.

      Comment


        #4
        I fold now but may even fold flop. What kinda hands was the old guy limping with?

        As played it's an easy river fold.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by colquhom View Post
          River bet is bad, you have the best hand a lot, but he can very rarely call with worse as you basically can't have any bluffs with the board run out.

          CC or CF depending on reads

          Fold river, it looks like you have Ax at least and he never expects you to fold it or better with your stacksize.
          pm me your email addy.

          Comment


            #6
            Shove pre imo.

            Agree with the above for the rest of the hand.
            It's all an illusion

            Comment


              #7
              old guy apparently limp folds a tonne but iv only seen him do it with AQ and insta snap a huge overbet.

              Im never folding flop to such a small lead with 2nd pair and back door outs.

              I disagree also about checking the river. In fact I think after downtown checks the turn it becomes a mandatory bet - as are all my nutted and airball hands

              Comment


                #8
                why? What is the point of betting the river?

                What worse calls? What better folds?

                Comment


                  #9
                  Id shove pre if the first limper is a serial limper. Id prob just c/f the flop. Given how you got to the river dont bet, it lets him put you to decision for all your chips whereas if you just checked he mightn't even bother trying to bluff.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                    .

                    I disagree also about checking the river. In fact I think after downtown checks the turn it becomes a mandatory bet - as are all my nutted and airball hands
                    You have a bluff catcher, its not like he's gonna call you with a jack, he'd check back the flop with Ax a tonne here to call your river bet if he thinks you could c/r turn light. If you think his check back on turn means you have best hand just check call him on the river but id say you'd be getting value towned a high percentage of the time

                    Comment


                      #11
                      hero calls from underpairs and some Jx hands such as JT, J9, KJ. doubt he has any worse queens in his range nor would he lead the flop with them.

                      Dont expect better to fold really unless hes feeling nitty with A2 or A3. what better hands than mine take his line though?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                        old guy apparently limp folds a tonne but iv only seen him do it with AQ and insta snap a huge overbet.
                        So what kinda range do you think Rory's putting him on leading here?

                        [/QUOTE]Im never folding flop to such a small lead with 2nd pair and back door outs.[/QUOTE]

                        It's just always going to be an annoying hand to play oop against a good aggressive player.

                        [/QUOTE]I disagree also about checking the river. In fact I think after downtown checks the turn it becomes a mandatory bet - as are all my nutted and airball hands[/QUOTE]

                        We'll have to agree to disagree here. Why are you betting? For value? A bluff?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Way to quote.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            il accept my river bet for thin value was bad

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                              hero calls from underpairs and some Jx hands such as JT, J9, KJ. doubt he has any worse queens in his range nor would he lead the flop with them.

                              Dont expect better to fold really unless hes feeling nitty with A2 or A3. what better hands than mine take his line though?
                              not a chance he's calling with any of those hands, nor folding any of the hands either.

                              You clearly have a weak Q or better here. His range is wide open and crushes you tbh.

                              Bluff catch, don't valuebet, or else fold. Simples.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                10 secs hardly constitutes a tank....!! terrible river bet!!

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by HappyasLarry View Post
                                  10 secs hardly constitutes a tank....!! terrible river bet!!
                                  Thank you for the constructive criticims....!! Please post moar!!
                                  It's all an illusion

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    It would be a hero call,Tony.

                                    The best you could hope for imo is that he holds Q-6 and bets out post flop with the resultant two pair in which case your 10 plays out in the end. However I think he can have A-6 and 6-6 also. Its a little bizzare he checked the turn though but I wouldn't know his game at all. I don't think you played the hand at all badly bar the 4k bet on the river. I mean what kind of hand do you think he's holding after the initial 1800 bet?

                                    On a lighter note if he reads the hand historys' here on a regular basis he'll know that you're a fairly tight player especially after folding pocket Queens to me last year on a Jack high flop. He certainly can't have you for A-Q,A-J or A-K so he could be in a position where he is confident of getting you off the hand.
                                    "Let your boat of life be light, packed with only what you need - a homely home and simple pleasures, one or two friends, worth the name, someone to love and someone to love you, a cat, a dog, and a pipe or two, enough to eat and enough to wear, and a little more than enough to drink; for thirst is a dangerous thing." Jerome K. Jerome Three men in a Boat

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      A4 imo

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Hand is fine til the river where it's a check-call unless his betting is out of the ordinary. Leading out the river is asking for a re-raise and never gets a worse hand to call ( he can't put you on a draw as there was none on the flop - he's agro not mental).

                                        Presume you were check-raising the turn if he stabs at it?

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Shove pre obv. 5600 in the middle already. If the oul lad has limped his monster then so be it.

                                          Anyone like a Johnny Chan turn donk with the intention of getting em in? Pair+flushdraw+gutshot means we like a huge % of river cards. Limp/donked pot so villian has a weak ace a lot, so we have bags of fold equity, plus we look FOS and might get hero calls from worse.
                                          "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                                            Im never folding flop to such a small lead with 2nd pair and back door outs.
                                            Just because you never do it, doesn't mean its not bad.

                                            I imagine rory also never leads here without QJ+

                                            I disagree also about checking the river. In fact I think after downtown checks the turn it becomes a mandatory bet - as are all my nutted and airball hands
                                            You need to slow down and think about why we actually bet.

                                            We bet because worse will or call, or better will fold, but never becasue we might have the best hand.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Looking for a thin call when you've check called n ace high board is pretty optimistic thinking. Check fold flop, don't bet the turn and fold now.
                                              Looking for full or part time poker and betting writers. PM if interested.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by ianmc38 View Post
                                                Looking for a thin call when you've check called n ace high board is pretty optimistic thinking. Check fold flop, don't bet the turn and fold now.

                                                agree with ianmc
                                                folding flop what hand are you putting him on to call the flop??in a live game limpers with ace rag is very likely so why does he lead out with worse

                                                if this hand was blind on blind only it would be diff, the limpers mean he most likely has something to lead out flop,

                                                On the river how many times those he have air in this spot? cant be enough to be a profitable call.
                                                https://twitter.com/#!/PadraigONeill89

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Isn't Rory's range pretty much polarised between the nuts and hands you are beating?
                                                  Turning millions into thousands

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    you forget to mention you were starting to tilt imo

                                                    fold flop obviously
                                                    "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      ah I dont think I was tilting - card dead but not tilting.

                                                      @ Nuck - if he bets the turn I ship the loots

                                                      the annoying thing is on the river I know he knows what my hand looks like/is. So will have enough bluffs in his range to make this a call some of the time. However I folded.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                                                        ah I dont think I was tilting - card dead but not tilting.
                                                        ah, you were looking agitato!

                                                        should have stayed in Kehoes obviously
                                                        "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Mad logic for river bet. I like a ship pre aswell. River is a fold even though I think could sometimes be a bluff. Dont like trying to get it in on the turn either-basically we have close to zero fold eq if he bets again.

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            River weak is very weak, but you are right in that Downtown and a lot of others would ship with a wide range, both bluffs and even marginal aces. Its a deffo fold on the river unless you have some sick soul read. In the future I would 90% of the time C/C on the river
                                                            Redbet at the Dublin Poker Invasion FTW

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by jbravado View Post
                                                              Mad logic for river bet. I like a ship pre aswell.
                                                              the ship pre was not an option with the 'terrible old guy' in the hand

                                                              he had had limp\called a shove 3 or 4 times already at this point, couple of times with monsters, once with KQ and once with a medium pp
                                                              "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
                                                                the ship pre was not an option with the 'terrible old guy' in the hand

                                                                he had had limp\called a shove 3 or 4 times already at this point, couple of times with monsters, once with KQ and once with a medium pp
                                                                Ah ok. Saying that Id still be sorely tempted.

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
                                                                  the ship pre was not an option with the 'terrible old guy' in the hand

                                                                  he had had limp\called a shove 3 or 4 times already at this point, couple of times with monsters, once with KQ and once with a medium pp
                                                                  Did he win those times he called though? If he donated a few chips he might not be happy happy calling all-ins so light anymore.
                                                                  Redbet at the Dublin Poker Invasion FTW

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by The Aul Switcharoo View Post
                                                                    Did he win those times he called though? If he donated a few chips he might not be happy happy calling all-ins so light anymore.
                                                                    he won his first three and then donated me many bananas with my AK vs his KQ, then he donated some more with another moderate hand in the same fashion.
                                                                    "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      People have said all there is to say about your river bet so I won't comment on that.

                                                                      Weird line from Rory.

                                                                      What hands does he check the turn that he's happy to jam the river with?

                                                                      Rory is good enough to know his line is very fishy and he may well be called light. But at the same time it's really hard to see what the heck he shows up with.

                                                                      I would seriously consider calling here. Wp him if he has a big hand or just an ace imo.

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by max_power View Post
                                                                        A4 imo
                                                                        He shoves pre with Ax.
                                                                        Q6 obv
                                                                        Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          I think its an easy river call, unless the 4 hit improved his hand its very hard for him to have a good hand. What strong hand on the flop can he have? Q6, and I doubt he checks back the turn and shoves the river with it. It looks like he had a mid pair and is trying to get you to fold a better pair.

                                                                          You're going to be beaten here a good portion of the time, but not enough to fold IMO. When you lose its to A4 or KT

                                                                          I like the bet on the river to induce a bluff, pretty terrible for any other purpose

                                                                          Calling out of position on the flop is bad, oop and not very deep don't be worrying about back door outs

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            What did u have Rory?

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by Moneymaker View Post

                                                                              I would seriously consider calling here.
                                                                              if you consider the river bet only it seems a decent hero call spot. I mean, you can't see what hands he pushes river here and its blind on blind with two other limpers so both of your ranges are much wider, a decent sized pot and the potential for funkiness is much bigger

                                                                              but you have to consider what he is donking an AQ6 flop with that you beat. i don't think much. I can't see him leading less than KQ, QJ

                                                                              so i reluctantly fold, unless he knows something about the two limpers that allows him to donk that flop with nowt

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                I had A6. I donked hoping the old guy had limped with a big hand and we could play for stacks.
                                                                                When Tony called I felt his hand was a queen. I checked the turn to look weak and was not worried about him making 2 pair. It worked out well and I nearly got him to call. I think I played it well. If he checks the river, I prob jam to test his c/ call river line to the max and look more like a bluff. I play any A x the same except I bet the turn because my hand is a lot more vulnerable.

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  wp, its a big risk checking the turn though, a lot of cards kill your action/beat you, KQJT all ruin the hand, a club will end up stacking you (allthough that's unlikely). Maybe worth the risk since you can probably just flat call a river bet. I'd bet the turn because not knowing bubbleking, I would imagine he would have a much stronger hand than he really did, and I want to keep building the pot.
                                                                                  Last edited by Hectorjelly; 12-02-11, 14:46.

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                                                                                    I had A6. I donked hoping the old guy had limped with a big hand and we could play for stacks.
                                                                                    When Tony called I felt his hand was a queen. I checked the turn to look weak and was not worried about him making 2 pair. It worked out well and I nearly got him to call. I think I played it well. If he checks the river, I prob jam to test his c/ call river line to the max and look more like a bluff. I play any A x the same except I bet the turn because my hand is a lot more vulnerable.
                                                                                    Shove pre.

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Calling the river would be horrific, you can pretend your galfond and make up some sick logic to justify it on paper but in reality your always fucked.

                                                                                      Your river lead is bad, and your logic is way off. It's pretty standard these days to check back the turn for pot control. It's near impossible for Rory to call worse, you've called a bet on a non drawy board oop with 4 players to the flop. you pretty much have the bottom of your range.

                                                                                      Also much prefer bettin the turn Rory, I see your logic, but I think your more likely to get more chips by betting the turn. Also protects your hand. If he has an ace your probably going to get one more bet, same goes for strrong queens as they've prob turned a gutter/2 pair. A lot of cards kill her your action too, all broadways basically.

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                                        I think its an easy river call, unless the 4 hit improved his hand its very hard for him to have a good hand. What strong hand on the flop can he have? Q6, and I doubt he checks back the turn and shoves the river with it. It looks like he had a mid pair and is trying to get you to fold a better pair.

                                                                                        You're going to be beaten here a good portion of the time, but not enough to fold IMO. When you lose its to A4 or KT

                                                                                        I like the bet on the river to induce a bluff, pretty terrible for any other purpose

                                                                                        Calling out of position on the flop is bad, oop and not very deep don't be worrying about back door outs
                                                                                        havent done any calculations but i think the river is still a fold .
                                                                                        between him checking a made hand behind on the turn or having made his hand on the river,i think it's a fold.

                                                                                        i think calling flop is really bad.the limpers,the board ,the position etc makes it a really bad spot to call there.

                                                                                        i like how Rory played the hand as well,i wouldnt play it this way usually cuz im so active ,i dont need to slow play but i like how this was played.

                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                                                                                          I checked the turn to look weak and was not worried about him making 2 pair.
                                                                                          Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                                          I'd bet the turn because not knowing bubbleking, I would imagine he would have a much stronger hand than he really did, and I want to keep building the pot.
                                                                                          Originally posted by NuckChorris View Post
                                                                                          Presume you were check-raising the turn if he stabs at it?
                                                                                          Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                                                                                          @ Nuck - if he bets the turn I ship the loots
                                                                                          .

                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Originally posted by thechamp87 View Post
                                                                                            Shove pre.
                                                                                            Shoving pre in this game is pretty bad imo. Standard is pretty poor and the limper has limp called shoves 4 times already with hands that crush me. I think I give up an edge by shoving pre. Its easy enough to get a double up in this game so I think shoving pre is pretty bad actually despite my stack being perfect for it.

                                                                                            Obviously results based Ronan, I would of got the lot if I bet the turn but I thought his hand was weaker than it turned out to be and I was pretty sure he was calling more on what he thought the strength of my hand was, rather than the strength of his hand. I sometimes bet, sometimes check the turn here. Its dependent on alot of subjective factors at the time.
                                                                                            Last edited by Downtown; 12-02-11, 17:26.

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                                                                                              I had A6. I donked hoping the old guy had limped with a big hand and we could play for stacks.
                                                                                              When Tony called I felt his hand was a queen. I checked the turn to look weak and was not worried about him making 2 pair. It worked out well and I nearly got him to call. I think I played it well. If he checks the river, I prob jam to test his c/ call river line to the max and look more like a bluff. I play any A x the same except I bet the turn because my hand is a lot more vulnerable.
                                                                                              Feeling he only had one/two smaller pair Could/Should you not of milked it a little more with just a minraise/6k raise on the river? Would it not almost guarantee 4/6k more rather than hope than hope he'd bluffcatch with his entire stack/tourny to your shove?

                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                Originally posted by ferg View Post
                                                                                                Feeling he only had one/two smaller pair Could/Should you not of milked it a little more with just a minraise/6k raise on the river? Would it not almost guarantee 4/6k more rather than hope than hope he'd bluffcatch with his entire stack/tourny to your shove?
                                                                                                Its effectively the same thing. I dont think he is more likely to call and leave himself with 5 bbs rather than fully bust. If he was going to call he would of called the lot.

                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Maybe Rory.... im not so sure tho...ive even seen it encourage a shove from 2nd pair on a limped pot with little aggression post flop....

                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    Thanks for all the replys. In fairness Rory read it very well he knew I wanted to call on the basis that his hand looked FOS rather than mine being anything special. I made a lot of mistakes in this hand which is a disappointment because apart from that I think I played the tourney reasonably well. in fact i think this as the only hand I made any mistakes in

                                                                                                    Looking back every street is bad (albeit with the situation I couldnt shove pre). my bet on the river can be exploited because Rory can literally shove his entire range profitably.

                                                                                                    Valuable lessons learned

                                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                                      #51
                                                                                                      Originally posted by ferg View Post
                                                                                                      Maybe Rory.... im not so sure tho...ive even seen it encourage a shove from 2nd pair on a limped pot with little aggression post flop....
                                                                                                      Rory def has more chance of getting my stack if he shoves. I know I'm beat if he min raises and regardless of odds i would rather play short stacked with 12bbs than 5

                                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                                        #52
                                                                                                        also if people are in my spot do they fold A2 - AT. disregarding 2 pairs obv

                                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                                          #53
                                                                                                          yup.

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                                                                                                            #54
                                                                                                            Pre=great spot to shove
                                                                                                            Turn=great spot to lead and set up a pot sized river jam
                                                                                                            As played don't bet river it accomplishes nothing its ck/decide i have never played with the guy so don't know hoe likely he is to bluffshove this river but I dont think Id call to see A4
                                                                                                            Last edited by B8kedbean; 25-02-11, 20:44. Reason: Just read back if I played this i get stacked haha

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