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$11 MTT AK 4 Bet

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    $11 MTT AK 4 Bet

    From what I've seen so far Villain has been pretty solid. Bear in mind it's only a few hands but he's shown nothing but strength. Is my 3 bet a little too much? Also, is this a standard fold?

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 11 Tournament, 40/80 Blinds (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    saw flop | saw showdown

    Button (t3346)
    SB (t6150)
    BB (t5519)
    UTG (t2150)
    UTG+1 (t4445)
    MP1 (t2780)
    MP2 (t3300)
    Hero (MP3) (t2625)
    CO (t4620)

    Hero's M: 21.88

    Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K, A
    1 fold, UTG+1 bets t210, 2 folds, Hero raises to t590, 4 folds, UTG+1 raises to t2800
    Trying to not cause trouble since 1983

    #2
    Snapcall.

    Comment


      #3
      Ship it and suckout on his aa/kk

      Comment


        #4
        Another situation where you shouldn't 3 bet if you're planning to fold to a 4-bet. Call here and hate life.
        http://carlmorrissey.blogspot.com/
        http://twitter.com/#!/Moro88

        Comment


          #5
          Once I three-bet i'll be snapping this. I see nothing wrong with just flatting pre aswell. I was reading Lex Veldhius state before that early in a big field tournament he likes to flat AK pre. It allows him to give it up easily and it disguises your hand greatly. I sometimes have adapted this into my game.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Carl_Morrissey View Post
            Another situation where you shouldn't 3 bet if you're planning to fold to a 4-bet. Call here and hate life.
            Why is this so? Is a 4 bet not a weapon that we can use? At this early stage I have plenty of time to recoup my losses IF I'm still in it. You say call and hate life with a view to knowing you're behind????
            Trying to not cause trouble since 1983

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
              Once I three-bet i'll be snapping this. I see nothing wrong with just flatting pre aswell. I was reading Lex Veldhius state before that early in a big field tournament he likes to flat AK pre. It allows him to give it up easily and it disguises your hand greatly. I sometimes have adapted this into my game.
              Ok, I do actually see some sense in flatting at times but at a loose table, which this was given how early in the tourney it was, I couldn't justify going multiway. Am I wrong?

              Also, is the fold horrible? I think it was ok given what I knew and blind/stack sizes
              Trying to not cause trouble since 1983

              Comment


                #8
                You cant 3bet ak and fold to a 4bet shove with 40bbs imo.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Ramiriquez View Post
                  Ok, I do actually see some sense in flatting at times but at a loose table, which this was given how early in the tourney it was, I couldn't justify going multiway. Am I wrong?

                  Also, is the fold horrible? I think it was ok given what I knew and blind/stack sizes
                  Why can't you justify going multi-way? Basicially if you hit your Ace or King I reckon you would be good. I fold the rest of the flops. If the table was that loose man, I get it in even quicker.

                  I think after you three-bet you have to get it in. You've put in 20% of your stack by 3 betting man. You only have to be scared of two hands AA and KK. I think UTG+1 plays say AK, QQ and JJ the same way. Hell this early if he's bad he could have AQ, 99+. If he's a winning player i'm probably can muster up a fold sometimes, losing player get it in everytime. OPR ftw my man.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                    Why can't you justify going multi-way? Basicially if you hit your Ace or King I reckon you would be good. I fold the rest of the flops. If the table was that loose man, I get it in even quicker.

                    I think after you three-bet you have to get it in. You've put in 20% of your stack by 3 betting man. You only have to be scared of two hands AA and KK. I think UTG+1 plays say AK, QQ and JJ the same way. Hell this early if he's bad he could have AQ, 99+. If he's a winning player i'm probably can muster up a fold sometimes, losing player get it in everytime. OPR ftw my man.
                    Honestly, because I'm not that good multiway. Post flop for that matter too. Shit, guess that makes me pretty shitty overall Either way, I'm not that worried.

                    Ok, lets say I'm up against 1010 e.g. I'm behind, I have 20+% my stack in so this calls for a call. But, ya know what? This guy is a lot worse than me (e.g.) so I'm prepared to bide my time and take his chips in a situation where I know I'm ahead?

                    I understand that this thinking will vex/lol/genuinely not give a shit to most of you but I play maybe 2-3 MTT's a day so when it comes to playing the percentages it'll take me a god damned while!!

                    I do however appreciate any feedback given, so thank you
                    Trying to not cause trouble since 1983

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Snap it off and run good. You should always be calling off once you 3bet. You have blockers for AA and KK and there's always the chance he's shipping AQ.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Ramiriquez View Post
                        Honestly, because I'm not that good multiway. Post flop for that matter too. Shit, guess that makes me pretty shitty overall Either way, I'm not that worried.

                        Ok, lets say I'm up against 1010 e.g. I'm behind, I have 20+% my stack in so this calls for a call. But, ya know what? This guy is a lot worse than me (e.g.) so I'm prepared to bide my time and take his chips in a situation where I know I'm ahead?

                        I understand that this thinking will vex/lol/genuinely not give a shit to most of you but I play maybe 2-3 MTT's a day so when it comes to playing the percentages it'll take me a god damned while!!

                        I do however appreciate any feedback given, so thank you
                        That's the problem with many MTTer's man, myself included. I struggled post flop when I have a decent stack. I miss streets of value(for fear of getting taken off the best hand) and my post flop game needs a fair amount of work.

                        You're behind man but not by much man and after you three-bet it's in your interest to get it in. Otherwise you're giving up a bit of an edge. I honestly believe you could be a winning MTTer without ever folding AK pre-flop....madness I know but so much time you are up against an pair or AQ or even worse alot. I presume you play lower stakes man so you will get people to stack you quite light. There is no guarantee you will get a better spot to get your chips in.

                        I found this article very interesting one man. Have a look. You will learn something from it.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Unless I'm reading wrong we only have 33BBs. I 3bet with to try and build a pot or get it in pre.

                          Originally posted by Ramiriquez View Post
                          Honestly, because I'm not that good multiway. Post flop for that matter too. Shit, guess that makes me pretty shitty overall Either way, I'm not that worried.
                          Sure how do you know your bad postflop with AK if you always come into a pot 3betting it? Try it a few times, run good, bink tptk on flop and stack off against the draws, AQ's, KQ's and KJ's of the world. No harm in trying.

                          Originally posted by Ramiriquez View Post
                          Ok, lets say I'm up against 1010 e.g. I'm behind, I have 20+% my stack in so this calls for a call. But, ya know what? This guy is a lot worse than me (e.g.) so I'm prepared to bide my time and take his chips in a situation where I know I'm ahead?
                          Can't really see an argument for 3bet folding AK with a 33bb stack. 3bet folding is bad in general.

                          Originally posted by Ramiriquez View Post
                          I understand that this thinking will vex/lol/genuinely not give a shit to most of you but I play maybe 2-3 MTT's a day so when it comes to playing the percentages it'll take me a god damned while!!

                          I do however appreciate any feedback given, so thank you
                          It's better to play as many tables as you are comfortable, it doesn't matter if the next person plays 20 at a time. No point in you doing it if you can't play optimally.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            you can defo fold deeper, you can't fold with this stack and this much invested

                            flatting and going broke on an A or K flop is better than 3-bet folding

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Ramiriquez View Post
                              Why is this so? Is a 4 bet not a weapon that we can use? At this early stage I have plenty of time to recoup my losses IF I'm still in it. You say call and hate life with a view to knowing you're behind????
                              I mean hate life in the sense that you 3-bet and you're considering folding to a 4bet ship. You're clearly uncomfortable calling off your stack this deep with the fact he shoved on your 3-bet, otherwise you wouldn't have posted the hand. If you were planning on folding to a 4 bet shove why 3-bet in the first place. I would be flatting the pre and hoping to to spike a big flop, if so your hand is super disguised imo.
                              http://carlmorrissey.blogspot.com/
                              http://twitter.com/#!/Moro88

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Ramiriquez View Post
                                Honestly, because I'm not that good multiway. Post flop for that matter too. Shit, guess that makes me pretty shitty overall Either way, I'm not that worried.
                                Originally posted by Ramiriquez View Post
                                This guy is a lot worse than me

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Thanlk for pointing out the obvious
                                  Trying to not cause trouble since 1983

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    I'd have prob snapped his hand of too had I not been staked, therein lies the downfall of a player out to impress
                                    Trying to not cause trouble since 1983

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      on the plus side, just beat my time by a walk , 4 m 42s . I maybe shit at poker but free diving is fast becoming a hobby
                                      Trying to not cause trouble since 1983

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Flatting pre is much better here. You're much likely to get worse aces and worse kings in if they hit top pair than if you 4 bet pre, and it also retains the option of folding on the flop for minimal loss. If it's multiway, that's not really a problem. Your stack will be 3-4 times the pot so if you do hit you've a no brain decision to go with the hand. If someone's hit a set or 2 pair, good luck to them.

                                        Another advantage is it might induce a squeeze from a worse ace (or king) from someone behind. You could have some serial squeezer sitting there with AJ who won't be able to resist banging it in if you flat but who'd fold if you 3 bet.

                                        On the other hand, if someone ships behind and the original raiser now reships, you can safely fold.

                                        Once you 3 bet, you can't fold this shallow, so you should only 3 bet if you think it's more likely to get a worse hand in pre, or it'll fold a lot of pairs.
                                        Last edited by doke; 05-02-11, 05:25.
                                        My poker blog - Doking around in cyberspace

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                                          I honestly believe you could be a winning MTTer without ever folding AK pre-flop....madness I know but so much time you are up against an pair or AQ or even worse alot.

                                          I agree with this, online at least. Online, the number of times you get it in v AQ/AJ/KQ >> the number of times you run into KK or AA.

                                          A very good book on stts I read once suggested flatting with AK in the early levels of low stakes stts but raising with it in higher stakes ones. Reason was not explained but I'm guessing it's to do with low stakes players folding less (so you won't fold out even small pairs if you raise) whereas at higher stakes hands you want to fold will and hands you want to shove (AQ etc) are more likely to if you 3 bet. Also at the lower stakes your edge is much bigger so straightforward smallball ABC is more likely to get the job done.

                                          As I say, this advice was for stts (and I found it sound advice when I was specialising in stts), and in my experience online mtts play more like low stakes stts early on.

                                          Live is a bit different. Live players don't like to fold 44 even, and if you raise have a tendency to "put you on ace king". Flatting AK is therefore very deceptive, and less likely to have you racing prematurely.
                                          My poker blog - Doking around in cyberspace

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            with no real reads I flat pre

                                            Once you 3bet you have to get it in

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