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    Verbal declaration rules

    In the fitz there tonight and was involved in a ruling which i thought was handled incorrectly, so was looking for a few more views on the matter. The hand began when there roughly 13/14 players left, 9 get paid.

    The hand begins with my being UTG, i get dealt kings and i declare all in. Its folded round to the button who removes his earphones when told by the dealer it was his turn, and he declares ' i call''.
    When the dealer tells him to put all his chips in he says he only meant to call the big blind, not my all in. The TD is charge gets called him to sort everything. He says that it was an honest mistake and that the benefit of the doubt should be used and that his hand can either call my all in, or fold, without putting anything into the pot. He folds, in doing so putting nothing into the pot, and i take down a pot that should have been bigger. It gets slightly more odd when the next rule is said tho.

    The TD states that, because i didnt put any of my chips over the line, this allows the ruling to be empolyed, as opposed to the other scenario where if my chips had been pushed into the middle, he would HAVE to call.

    Does this make any sense what so ever?I was always told that verbal declarations were binding be it fold, call or all in.

    Opinions?

    #2
    The T.D. and dealer would want to grow a pair.

    If a clueless fool wants to blurt out statements like 'I call' without even knowing the action previously it's his own fault, no excuse.

    Wouldn't agree 100% on the 'shove your stack into the middle to make the bet official', if you have 200k chips etc. it can get quite messy and tedious. That said, putting the stacks of your highest denomination chips out should be adequate to make it clear.

    I often find players asking (once I tell them the action is on them) who raised etc,
    really wish people paid attention, just for the sake of the game.
    ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿

    Comment


      #3
      RULE 12 ELECTRONIC DEVICES

      12-1. Players may only use “electronic devices” as approved by the Management.
      12-2. Players must obey the management’s instructions regarding the use of electronic devices throughout the tournament.
      12-3. Players using “electronic devices” assume the responsibility of any unheard verbal declarations and announcements made during the tournament.
      12-4. Once players have reached the “hand for hand” action, the “payout level,” or as instructed, all “electronic devices” may no longer be used and must be removed from the table.
      12-5. Music playing devices with any type of communication functions (Cellular phones, internet, text messaging) are NOT allowed.
      12-6. Players will be allowed to use noise-reduction headsets.
      12-7. Music playing devices must be used with a headset and the volume must be kept at a level that can only be heard by that player, as to not disturb others.
      https://www.facebook.com/pages/MidWe...17622831832879
      http://mayopubpoker.com/

      Comment


        #4
        Any player intending on missing action whilst using earphones when playing in a tournament should be asked to wear a t-shirt showing this:



        This would be fair to the other players inasmuch as they would know they're up against a player who, for whatever reason - paid extra registration fee? Friend of management? Second coming? - is playing under a different set of rules to everyone else.


        Seriously, is this 'TD' gonna be making 'rulings' in the Fitz over the next few days? I would hope not.

        Comment


          #5
          A call is a call, the TD messed up big time here

          Comment


            #6
            lol have seen The Fitz make the opposite ruling too. It's whatever takes their fancy that night and dependent on players involved.

            Player should be made call the all in BUT you should have been made to move the chips over the line too after verbally announcing all in by the dealer

            Comment


              #7
              It's a funny one alrite, it's his own fault he wasnt paying attention

              If this was to become their standard rule it's really open for abuse of angle shooting so anyone can get a better judge of the strength of the all in player

              TD definitly messed up imo

              But regarding the chips over the line that shouldn't make a difference and should only be made push them over once called or asked for a count

              There are a few threads on 2+2 about weird ruling regarding the line but in cash games if I remember correctly

              Player A ships on the river but doesn't put his chips over, B calls & shows the winning hand

              Player A refuses to out his chips in and gets to walk away with his cash, gets banned from the casino but the law their says the casino cannot force him to put his chips in

              Comment


                #8
                At the minimum the call of the big blind should stay in the pot, I'm all for common sense but people aren't going to learn if you don't make the ruling stick generally though you can gauge if it was a genuine mistake or some kind of angle and make a judgement from that.

                For the last part you mention "The TD states that, because i didnt put any of my chips over the line, this allows the ruling to be empolyed, as opposed to the other scenario where if my chips had been pushed into the middle, he would HAVE to call." that is atrocious and complete BS in my opinion.
                "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Donkathon View Post
                  It's a funny one alrite, it's his own fault he wasnt paying attention

                  If this was to become their standard rule it's really open for abuse of angle shooting so anyone can get a better judge of the strength of the all in player

                  TD definitly messed up imo

                  But regarding the chips over the line that shouldn't make a difference and should only be made push them over once called or asked for a count

                  There are a few threads on 2+2 about weird ruling regarding the line but in cash games if I remember correctly

                  Player A ships on the river but doesn't put his chips over, B calls & shows the winning hand

                  Player A refuses to out his chips in and gets to walk away with his cash, gets banned from the casino but the law their says the casino cannot force him to put his chips in
                  Can you clarify why you think this?

                  In my opinion an all in is a bet. If you say 200 you must put out 200 across the line. If you say all in you should put all your chips in. I just don't see why there should be a difference in an all in bet and a bet of say 200.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    @ Donkathon pretty sure that is incorrect. If you declare all in you are still expected to move your chips in

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Doyler92 View Post
                      Can you clarify why you think this?

                      In my opinion an all in is a bet. If you say 200 you must put out 200 across the line. If you say all in you should put all your chips in. I just don't see why there should be a difference in an all in bet and a bet of say 200.
                      Yeah i agree with this

                      If i'm UTG and announce '5300' for example, i don't sit there with my chips behind the line. I'm announcing my bet, which is followed by putting my chips over the line. The same rule should apply for an allin bet. The verbal is the declaration of the bet, and then you put your chips over the line.

                      The dealer or the OP should have put the chips over the line, but the fact that you announced all in, and i'll presume the dealer confirmed 'player is allin', then the button should at MINIMUM have to put the amount of the big blind in the pot. I'd prefer to see him have to put the full amount of your call seeing as he's not followed the game, but because your chips are behind the line (and as it's the Fitz where it's different strokes for different folks) then i can understand why common sense can prevail and he be allowed not make the call. Absofuckinglutely he has to put the amount of the BB in the pot, and he should also get a slap for trying to open the limp the button in the first place

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Ruling is 100% wrong.

                        2nd part of the ruling makes even less sense since several players have acted since your all-in declaration. If the house rules require a specific action after an all in, then the dealer should have addressed this before moving to the next player.
                        Official Head Marshall of Waterford Gay Pride Festival 2015

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Players should put chips into the pot when they are all in. If i'm dealing and they've a good few chips I just get them to push in one column of chips or their highest denomination chips.
                          Redbet at the Dublin Poker Invasion FTW

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Verbal bets are binding, so wether the chip are moved are not surely doesn't affect the fact that a person is all in. Surely moving the chips across the line is for people who arent paying proper attention to the game, and i dont think there should be a rule like this to excuse their stupidity..........

                            Comment


                              #15
                              We all see if from time to time be in a live setting or on a tv poker show that when a player moves all in that don't always move their chips into the middle.

                              I would agree though that at least a stack of high denomination chips be put into the pot to signal the intent but that doesn't always happen but it's generally understood.
                              "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

                              Comment


                                #16
                                If it's a small enough stack of say less than 50 chips it's obviously going to be easier to push forward and pull back than someone with a 300 chip stack

                                Either way I think the verbal action is binding here and the all in player got screwed over by a bad ruling (or got lucky if it was a crazy UTG stealing ship)

                                I have noticed in the fitz when I was heads up with someone and announce I bet X and the villian insta folds the dealer still asks me to put the chips in "for the cameras" they've said on a few occasions

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  in most Vegas cardrooms they have a big "All In" button which the dealer puts infront of the stack when someone declares they are all in. Good idea as it takes away any of the confusion when some clown isn't paying attention.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    The big all in button might be the way to go. I agree that table awareness comes into it but it can be harsh to force someone to call an all in bet when they clearly acted to call the BB. One idea might be to have a penalty rule whereby the person who states call and then claims he did not see the all in (or a big raise for that matter) could be penalized for the amount of the raise or say 20% of their own stack - whichever is smaller. This would be a sufficient penalty to discourage angle shooting but not be unduly harsh to the person who made the error. It would only apply once, if there person makes the same error again they should be forced to call - end of story...

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      TD should hav made the guy on the button call the all in. Then he should hav warned the players at the table to push their chips over the line if they are all in. All in button is a good idea and should be introduced in Ireland.
                                      If you're not in, you can't win

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        This is a regular enough problem in games , firstly the all in should at least put in a stack of big chips , the dealer should not just call the player with the headphones that its his turn but also what he is facing (house allows headphones) and the TD should make him put in the big blind which he has called and then give him the option to call all in or fold leaving in the big blind.(penelty for zoning out ) . The thing is there are as many rules as there are TDs (myself included) and that makes it hard to get consistant rulings
                                        On the bright side he may have been forced to call with A7o and bust you with a straight to the 8 LoL

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          He should have been made to call imo.

                                          The second part is strange. If you pushed your chips over, then its an argument in your favour as its visual declaration as well as a verbal one. But failing to do so does not go against you. Dealers don't enforce chips to be moved enough to fall back on that.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Imo he should have to call considering he clearly said ''I call''. I dont understand how it could be ruled any other way tbh. I dont think i've ever had someone tell me that(especially when i had a big stack or a stack with a lot of small chips) that I had to push my stack over the line to be all-in. Frankly if you have a stack of say 500k and 150k of that is 1k chips it'd be rather messy to push it out.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by The Aul Switcharoo View Post
                                              Players should put chips into the pot when they are all in. If i'm dealing and they've a good few chips I just get them to push in one column of chips or their highest denomination chips.
                                              Similar to this or I inform the player it's all in to call its as much a dealer error than anything else.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Donk Magnet View Post
                                                Similar to this or I inform the player it's all in to call its as much a dealer error than anything else.
                                                So you think the dealer should have asked the guy to remove his earphones so he could inform him the other player was all inn? Its the players fault for not following the action, You cant blame the dealer here imo.

                                                This situation occured at a game i played a few weeks ago same guy did it twice, very annoying should be a clear rule on it.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  JP ruled in CityWest when someone called, and didn't realise a player was all-in, that he put in a big blind. The decision was not popular with everyone.
                                                  I would like a ban on all devices.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    What happens if after he says call and while realising his mistake, the SB ships straight behind him?

                                                    Can he then say "I thought I was calling the BB".

                                                    Leaves it too open to manipulation.

                                                    Rule needs to be standardised across the board.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                                      What happens if after he says call and while realising his mistake, the SB ships straight behind him?

                                                      Can he then say "I thought I was calling the BB".

                                                      Leaves it too open to manipulation.

                                                      Rule needs to be standardised across the board.
                                                      NO, rule just needs to be enforced properly and TD's need to stop wimping out.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by OasisKid View Post
                                                        So you think the dealer should have asked the guy to remove his earphones so he could inform him the other player was all inn? Its the players fault for not following the action, You cant blame the dealer here imo.

                                                        This situation occured at a game i played a few weeks ago same guy did it twice, very annoying should be a clear rule on it.
                                                        In the op it's says the player removes his headphones.

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          It can be broken down to this,

                                                          Verbal bet, verbal call by player B not knowing what the action is (through his own fault) yet acting anyway.

                                                          No one to blame but himself.
                                                          ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Good god live poker is slow enough without gimps not knowing when to act when its there turn.
                                                            If i was the shipper id have demanded his chips in the middle or get another ruling tell him to go down the poker desk and get the poker manager.
                                                            Its your responsibility to follow the action fukin tablets do be in use now.
                                                            I have no problem with people listening to music but if they miss something then tough shit.

                                                            2 months ago shipped a 20bb stack over 4 limpers was redic passive table
                                                            Eamon O reilly who posts here as 5pin5 said call from the Bb he immediately said balls when he saw my stack in the middle,
                                                            i knew he wanted to complete the bb but even tough hed j 9 he knew a verbal declaration stands even if it was a mistake my A 7 held
                                                            I like the fitz but they have some very poor rulings.

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by TOP_TOP View Post

                                                              Does this make any sense what so ever?I was always told that verbal declarations were binding be it fold, call or all in.

                                                              Opinions?
                                                              i didn`t read all the post but ... the decision in total non-sense. You declare all-in and i stands , he declares "call" and it stand.
                                                              What the TD mean "honest" mistake !? He listen to the music and he didn`t pay attention to the game - ok now put your stack in the middle , and listen to the music again next time.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by kincsem View Post
                                                                JP ruled in CityWest when someone called, and didn't realise a player was all-in, that he put in a big blind. The decision was not popular with everyone.
                                                                I would like a ban on all devices.
                                                                I agree with the fitz here.

                                                                What if you shove as a bluff and don't want a caller? Then he is forced to call with muck and could well be ahead,
                                                                Making them out in the BB might price them in, so again, they don't have to.

                                                                Common sense must be used and especially in a local game like the Fitz it's not necessary to be rules nazis. More often than not the person looking I enforce a ruling is angle shooting their way out of something, no more so is this abused than the string bet rule. Players dont want to call a raise there is a 1/10th of a second difference in chips hitting the felt so they angle shoot calling for a ruling.

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by Goodluck2me View Post
                                                                  I agree with the fitz here.

                                                                  What if you shove as a bluff and don't want a caller?

                                                                  If I shove as a bluff, I still have my declared that my chips are in the middle. Wether or not I want a call doesn't take away the fact that I am all in, I have grown the balls to make the decision to put my tournament life on the line. There should NOT be a rule to cater for players that choose to disregard preceding action.

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by TOP_TOP View Post
                                                                    If I shove as a bluff, I still have my declared that my chips are in the middle. Wether or not I want a call doesn't take away the fact that I am all in, I have grown the balls to make the decision to put my tournament life on the line. There should NOT be a rule to cater for players that choose to disregard preceding action.
                                                                    It means that you are being penalised for the actions of others outside your control, which is what rules are there to cater for.

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Goodluck2me if we let the fitz ruling be the acceptable one it leads it way open to a huge amount of angle shooting where a person can be fully aware of the action. Say call, in the hope os possibility seeing opponents cards, and then say, oh I didn't mean it, I didn't know he went all in. Here there is no downside to shooting this angle as it costs you nothing.

                                                                      To the OP I would think this would be an incorrect ruling. It is te players responsibility to be aware of all actions at the table whether through his own senses or simply asking the dealer. In this particular case he decided not to use either, so is his fault simple as.

                                                                      EDIT: Also knowing the OP's play it was more than likely only 2BB so just put it in
                                                                      Last edited by 3BetShove; 17-10-12, 14:32.

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by 3BetShove View Post
                                                                        Goodluck2me if we let the fitz ruling be the acceptable one it leads it way open to a huge amount of angle shooting where a person can be fully aware of the action. Say call, in the hope os possibility seeing opponents cards, and then say, oh I didn't mean it, I didn't know he went all in. Here there is no downside to shooting this angle as it costs you nothing.

                                                                        To the OP I would think this would be an incorrect ruling. It is te players responsibility to be aware of all actions at the table whether through his own senses or simply asking the dealer. In this particular case he decided not to use either, so is his fault simple as.

                                                                        EDIT: Also knowing the OP's play it was more than likely only 2BB so just put it in
                                                                        I agree on that angle shoot, I should have said that if the player raises the other player has all of his actions, but I he checks the bet stands as normal.

                                                                        Comment

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