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Old 19-01-17, 21:34   #1
Kie Diddy
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mucked or not?

Don't think this is controversial really, but let's see:

Heads-up to the river, player 1 checks, player 2 checks.
Player 1 says "I missed"; player 2 says "Ace Hi" and clearly shows A2 - while holding the cards in his hands.

Player 1 throws his cards, face-down, towards the muck
Player 2 then too throws his cards (A2), face down, towards the muck...

The dealer, who has to this point just been staring into space now wakes up and is confused, having basically missed the action described above. Dealer sees the 4 face-down card and says, 'I need to see some cards'

Player 1 - an inexperienced player who is basically just being obedient - immediately reaches in and flips his hand - only, lo and behold, to reveal he actually rivered bottom pair...

who gets the pot??
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Old 20-01-17, 01:33   #2
Irisheman
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Did players 1 cards actually hit the muck?

Assuming they did / the dealer gathered them into the muck or pulled them in its Player 2's pot.
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Old 20-01-17, 01:51   #3
Hectorjelly
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Player 2 didn't table his hand so has no claim on the pot.
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Old 20-01-17, 10:31   #4
Flushdraw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
Player 2 didn't table his hand so has no claim on the pot.
Quote:
player 2 says "Ace Hi" and clearly shows A2 - while holding the cards in his hands.
Cards actually have to go face up on the table in order for a hand to be 'tabled'?
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Old 20-01-17, 11:22   #5
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Player 1 gets the pot and dealer gets a kick in the hole for not paying attention. It's not a hard job. Wake the Fuck up
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Old 20-01-17, 11:38   #6
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If player 1's cards didn't hit the muck and are clearly identifiable as his cards then he wins as he has the best hand. Dealer being a twat though, but that's besides the point.
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Old 20-01-17, 12:05   #7
Hectorjelly
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13: Tabling Cards & Killing Winning Hand
A: Proper tabling is both 1) turning all cards face up on the table and 2) allowing the dealer and players
to read the hand clearly. “All cards” means both hole cards in hold’em, all 4 hole cards in Omaha, all 7
cards in 7-stud, etc.
B: At showdown a player must protect his hand while waiting for it to be read (See also Rule 60). If a
player does not fully table his cards, then mucks thinking he has won, he does so at his risk. If the
cards are not 100% identifiable and the TD rules the hand was not clearly read, the player has no claim
to the pot. The TDs decision on whether a hand was sufficiently tabled is final.

From the OP the player showed his cards in the air, they need to be actually tabled. Since neither cards were actually mucked its a bit of a moot point since the best hand is going to win anyway.

Rule 14:

14: Live Cards at Showdown
Discarding non-tabled cards face down does not automatically kill them; a player may change his mind
and table his cards if they remain 100% identifiable. Cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into
the muck.
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Old 20-01-17, 12:40   #8
Irisheman
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
13: Tabling Cards & Killing Winning Hand
A: Proper tabling is both 1) turning all cards face up on the table and 2) allowing the dealer and players
to read the hand clearly. “All cards” means both hole cards in hold’em, all 4 hole cards in Omaha, all 7
cards in 7-stud, etc.
B: At showdown a player must protect his hand while waiting for it to be read (See also Rule 60). If a
player does not fully table his cards, then mucks thinking he has won, he does so at his risk. If the
cards are not 100% identifiable and the TD rules the hand was not clearly read, the player has no claim
to the pot. The TDs decision on whether a hand was sufficiently tabled is final.

From the OP the player showed his cards in the air, they need to be actually tabled. Since neither cards were actually mucked its a bit of a moot point since the best hand is going to win anyway.

Rule 14:

14: Live Cards at Showdown
Discarding non-tabled cards face down does not automatically kill them; a player may change his mind
and table his cards if they remain 100% identifiable. Cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into
the muck.
Thanks for this good to know. I must admit I thought that showing in air was enough but it is quite clear now
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Old 20-01-17, 17:12   #9
Kie Diddy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
13: Tabling Cards & Killing Winning Hand
A: Proper tabling is both 1) turning all cards face up on the table and 2) allowing the dealer and players
to read the hand clearly. “All cards” means both hole cards in hold’em, all 4 hole cards in Omaha, all 7
cards in 7-stud, etc.
B: At showdown a player must protect his hand while waiting for it to be read (See also Rule 60). If a
player does not fully table his cards, then mucks thinking he has won, he does so at his risk. If the
cards are not 100% identifiable and the TD rules the hand was not clearly read, the player has no claim
to the pot. The TDs decision on whether a hand was sufficiently tabled is final.

From the OP the player showed his cards in the air, they need to be actually tabled. Since neither cards were actually mucked its a bit of a moot point since the best hand is going to win anyway.

Rule 14:

14: Live Cards at Showdown
Discarding non-tabled cards face down does not automatically kill them; a player may change his mind
and table his cards if they remain 100% identifiable. Cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into
the muck.
Both hands were clearly identifiable as were still in that no-mans land between player and dealer.

Ruling basically followed all of the above, player 1 got pot, player 2 advised in future to protect his hand until he gets pushed a pot an opponent cards actually mucked, and dealer told to pay closer attention...

Player 2 was very upset, though I really couldn't see there being any other ruling...
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Old 20-01-17, 20:27   #10
Hectorjelly
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I didn't mention before because its a bit of an aside, but the dealer really screwed up here because his statement is false, he doesn't need to see any cards. Once one of the players mucks, the other player wins the pot because he is the last person in the pot with live cards; he doesn't need to show. (Assuming no bizarre house rule). Player 1 is first to show so once he mucks Player 2 shouldn't be forced to show.
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Old 21-01-17, 08:26   #11
The Aul Switcharoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
I didn't mention before because its a bit of an aside, but the dealer really screwed up here because his statement is false, he doesn't need to see any cards. Once one of the players mucks, the other player wins the pot because he is the last person in the pot with live cards; he doesn't need to show. (Assuming no bizarre house rule). Player 1 is first to show so once he mucks Player 2 shouldn't be forced to show.
Dealer was so far away with the fairies they didn't know who mucked first.

I think there was a thread before about situation like this and I will say the same thing. A pet peeve of mine is dealer not mucking cards when somebody pushes cards face down over line. Dealer school 101 is don't go near/give pot before mucking losing hand.

I had a situation the other day where I got it in for chunks in a cash game with 89 on a j103s flop. Board runs out A10 and guy waits for me to muck as I had verbally said my hand on flop. I was curious so turned my 9 high over and guy finally said I was good and pushed his cards face down and started walking away. Everybody was kind of speechless and Dealer tries to call him back thinking he made a mistake. Thankfully somebody else berated her before I gave her an earful about not mucking his hand.

I do run good though
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