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Old 06-07-15, 20:45   #21
Jam-Fly
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it's very simple:

-was player's hand tabled?
-had a new hand commenced?

If the player's hand has been tabled, and a new hand had not started, the ruling should be you give him half of the pot from your stack. In this case I'd define 'new hand' as cards being dealt and significant action having taken place. You could argue 'new hand' is defined as the first riffle taking place but I think this would be against the fairness of the game.
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Old 06-07-15, 21:23   #22
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One of my golden rules for dealing. Do not award pot until cards are tabled or in the muck
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Old 06-07-15, 22:07   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donk Magnet View Post
I'm fairly sure that in this situation where cameras could be checked that he would get half the pot upon reviewing of the footage.

There is no rule that once a pot is awarded that the chips can't be taken back.
Tda clearly states the right to dispute a hand ends once the new hand begins ,,,,,,, So cant see the ruling in a cash game being any different .... Would b 2 hard 2 resolve matters after 4/5 hands .. Thats the rule we always play,,,,,
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Old 06-07-15, 22:11   #24
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Originally Posted by Celtic Poker View Post
Tda clearly states the right to dispute a hand ends once the new hand begins ,,,,,,, So cant see the ruling in a cash game being any different .... Would b 2 hard 2 resolve matters after 4/5 hands .. Thats the rule we always play,,,,,
I agree but in this instance I think the floor was called straight away it was the 2nd ruling he has the problem with.
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Old 07-07-15, 00:11   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donk Magnet View Post
I'm fairly sure that in this situation where cameras could be checked that he would get half the pot upon reviewing of the footage.

There is no rule that once a pot is awarded that the chips can't be taken back.
This is madness if true. The way that fivebetbluf3 would play the next hand (with an extra €115 in his stack) could be a lot different than if he played it without that money. He shouldn't be punished further down the line for dealer/incompetent player mistakes. How many hands can be played before it's decided that you can't take chips back?

I'm sure i've heard many a time from top TD's that once a new hand begins, then that's the end of it, let's move on. Is this the same for cash games and tournaments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by corkie123 View Post
if his cards are for all too see then his hand is live and split pot should have been awarded .
now if the pot was awarded to you by mistake and play started for next hand and you ask and say that it was really a split pot they should not really be a need for floor people to come too table you yourself should have said here your share and not just his 80 euro last bet
The OP didn't see the hand, but can the dealer or other players confirm that he had 108, which was a straight? I'd be wanting confirmation that is what he held before i start talking about giving money back.
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Old 07-07-15, 00:51   #26
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I meant taking them back straight away Tony not after the next hand.
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Old 07-07-15, 01:17   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flushdraw View Post
This is madness if true. The way that fivebetbluf3 would play the next hand (with an extra €115 in his stack) could be a lot different than if he played it without that money. He shouldn't be punished further down the line for dealer/incompetent player mistakes. How many hands can be played before it's decided that you can't take chips back?

I'm sure i've heard many a time from top TD's that once a new hand begins, then that's the end of it, let's move on. Is this the same for cash games and tournaments?
I think it was more referring to the fact that the first riffle doesn’t prevent them correcting the pot where he tabled the winning hand- where as in a lot of situations, the first riffle marks a new hand.
However if the chips have significantly been in play since the hand, it’s a different story imo.
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Old 07-07-15, 05:45   #28
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Thread cleaned up of nonsense please keep it on topic folks.
It's people like you that make this site so fucking boring.
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Old 07-07-15, 08:57   #29
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It's people like you that make this site so fucking boring.
It's people like you that make people like him necessary.
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Old 08-07-15, 15:10   #30
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To me its pretty simple. Did the dealer witness your opponents hand ie was it tabled whilst the flop turn and river were still in view off everyone.
If so well then the pot should be awarded accordingly.

From what i can read........
If the pot was awarded to you on the say so off said reg , (no he's good) after a few moments off pause the deck and flop pulled in pots awarded to you cards riffled back together then exposes his hand....well that's just game over imo. Said reg is responsible for his own actions and by not exposing his hand whilst the hand was still in play renders his hand dead....... THIS IS NOT TOURNAMENT POKER.
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Old 08-07-15, 15:32   #31
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Regardless of this ruling the Fitz seem quite lenient to regs in tourneys. I played the Tuesday tourney a few weeks back.
Full table: I shove UTG, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 is casually walking back to the table, UTG+3 folds and UTG+2 returns is allowed play his hand.
He wasn't there for the first or last card and a player after him folded. I asked the dealer before he even called could he play his cards, he only had his hand on his cards, dealer said yes his hand is live, no justification just yes, it's live. I said ok, no interest in calling the floor.
He calls and has AA, I crack them with A10 and he calls me a little bitch for asking the dealer are his cards live.
Would I have reacted different if I hadn't bust him, tbh I probably wouldn't have made a fuss but it was 100% the wrong ruling by the dealer but that sort of leniency seems to be evident in cash and tourneys.
Personally I think there are negatives and positives to leniency such as this in a club but maybe a place as big as the Fitz shouldn't allow it the way smaller clubs, with smaller client bases do.
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Old 08-07-15, 15:47   #32
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Its not a rule in the fitz on being their for first card so his hand woulda been still llive up to his action.
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Old 08-07-15, 18:05   #33
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Originally Posted by pppspecial View Post
Its not a rule in the fitz on being their for first card so his hand woulda been still llive up to his action.
His action had passed the player proceeding him had already folded??
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Old 08-07-15, 18:33   #34
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Ok should prob clear up the action as was typing on a phone previously and can see the confusion..

I bet 80 he snap calls, I show the my Q10 board is QJ29K he curses the gods and announces I win and points at the river(He is Chinese and English is not perfect). Some confusion happens as he puts the wrong chips into the pot. Myself and the dealer point out the bet was 80 he see's the mistake and pays the 80... His cards are still face down in front of him at this point... Once the 80 is in the middle the dealer picks up out two bets the pot in the middle and pushes it towards me. I start stacking my chips when the player throws in his cards face up just as the dealer extends his arm to take them in for the next hand.. Board is still out as this time... As he exposes his hand the dealer continues what he was doing picks up his hand my hand and the board and shuffles up.. We place the blinds... No one any way the wiser to what just happened as the cards were exposed for seconds. I point out the chop before any raising takes place in the next hand. Floors called. The floor rules its too late pot has been awarded. We deal on the next hand.. Floor number 2 comes over and rules I give 115 back from my stack.
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Old 08-07-15, 18:40   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fivebetbluf3 View Post
Ok should prob clear up the action as was typing on a phone previously and can see the confusion..

I bet 80 he snap calls, I show the my Q10 board is QJ29K he curses the gods and announces I win and points at the river(He is Chinese and English is not perfect). Some confusion happens as he puts the wrong chips into the pot. Myself and the dealer point out the bet was 80 he see's the mistake and pays the 80... His cards are still face down in front of him at this point... Once the 80 is in the middle the dealer picks up out two bets the pot in the middle and pushes it towards me. I start stacking my chips when the player throws in his cards face up just as the dealer extends his arm to take them in for the next hand.. Board is still out as this time... As he exposes his hand the dealer continues what he was doing picks up his hand my hand and the board and shuffles up.. We place the blinds... No one any way the wiser to what just happened as the cards were exposed for seconds. I point out the chop before any raising takes place in the next hand. Floors called. The floor rules its too late pot has been awarded. We deal on the next hand.. Floor number 2 comes over and rules I give 115 back from my stack.
At what stage was the next hand at when floor No 2 came over (i.e any action - folds/bets etc). I think as per above splitting the pot at this stage is right in terms of fairness & not killing a winning hand.

If its 2+ hands later I guess its too late & up to you if you want to do the right thing or not?

I've no idea on the actual rule though
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Old 08-07-15, 18:40   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brady23 View Post
Regardless of this ruling the Fitz seem quite lenient to regs in tourneys. I played the Tuesday tourney a few weeks back.
Full table: I shove UTG, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 is casually walking back to the table, UTG+3 folds and UTG+2 returns is allowed play his hand.
He wasn't there for the first or last card and a player after him folded. I asked the dealer before he even called could he play his cards, he only had his hand on his cards, dealer said yes his hand is live, no justification just yes, it's live. I said ok, no interest in calling the floor.
He calls and has AA, I crack them with A10 and he calls me a little bitch for asking the dealer are his cards live.
Would I have reacted different if I hadn't bust him, tbh I probably wouldn't have made a fuss but it was 100% the wrong ruling by the dealer but that sort of leniency seems to be evident in cash and tourneys.
Personally I think there are negatives and positives to leniency such as this in a club but maybe a place as big as the Fitz shouldn't allow it the way smaller clubs, with smaller client bases do.
Yes this is a ridic Fitz rule that has caught me out many many of time. Sit outs mess up dynamic's so much it can easily cost a player there tournament life in that one hand. ex. U shove sb he suddenly sits in and calls with AA lol gg

A few weeks ago I played the same Tuesday game were a player misclicks to 7.5k @ 1k bb I shove the bottom of my range and get it true.. Dealer rules it was a mistake and only takes 2.5k from the player?? Even doe he left it in there while I'm tanking and only takes it out after I get it true. This was on another level of tilting. The dealer then starts telling me to shut up after I complain! Tells me the rules are at his discretion when I ask for the floor, I was in shock at the whole situation. Obv thinking I'm a newb and don't know better. Back talking customers n that sort of thing is not too professional at the end of the day even if there annoying...

Last edited by fivebetbluf3; 08-07-15 at 19:16.
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Old 08-07-15, 18:53   #37
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Originally Posted by Dice75 View Post
At what stage was the next hand at when floor No 2 came over (i.e any action - folds/bets etc). I think as per above splitting the pot at this stage is right in terms of fairness & not killing a winning hand.

If its 2+ hands later I guess its too late & up to you if you want to do the right thing or not?

I've no idea on the actual rule though
I don't actually know at what point he came over as it happened in sections. I'm pretty sure it was in the middle of the next hand after that I know we had a bum deal at one point aswell. He made the ruling went out and came back with the player so a few hands were played in between thats why I'm unsure excatly... But the ruling was made I would say only 1-2 max hands on and 1 being a bum deal so was not loads.. Point is doe there should be a clear rule here. No point of views from different staff just one rule for all.. I always thought once the next riffle starts the hand is over. That is the rule I was thought playing poker but I could be mistaking with tournament poker... So here I am

Last edited by fivebetbluf3; 08-07-15 at 19:18.
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Old 08-07-15, 20:18   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fivebetbluf3 View Post
Ok should prob clear up the action as was typing on a phone previously and can see the confusion..

I bet 80 he snap calls, I show the my Q10 board is QJ29K he curses the gods and announces I win and points at the river(He is Chinese and English is not perfect). Some confusion happens as he puts the wrong chips into the pot. Myself and the dealer point out the bet was 80 he see's the mistake and pays the 80... His cards are still face down in front of him at this point... Once the 80 is in the middle the dealer picks up out two bets the pot in the middle and pushes it towards me. I start stacking my chips when the player throws in his cards face up just as the dealer extends his arm to take them in for the next hand.. Board is still out as this time... As he exposes his hand the dealer continues what he was doing picks up his hand my hand and the board and shuffles up.. We place the blinds... No one any way the wiser to what just happened as the cards were exposed for seconds. I point out the chop before any raising takes place in the next hand. Floors called. The floor rules its too late pot has been awarded. We deal on the next hand.. Floor number 2 comes over and rules I give 115 back from my stack.
The way it played out is bizarre but fair play to you for being honest about it. I have often seen situations like this where the player says nothing at all. Definitely think the floor could have done a better job in this case.
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Old 08-07-15, 20:44   #39
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I found this on the interweb fairly similar;

Two players in the showdown hesitated to show their hands. One shows top pair and the other says "Your pair is good" but continues holding his cards, After the dealer awards the pot and begins pulling in the community cards the player holding his cards says "Wait, I have a straight." The TD ruled he waited too long and let the pot stay where it was. Right or wrong?

Stuart Murray:
Hi and thanks for posting,

by the book no not too late as the player still has a live hand and his comments of "your pair is good" is meaningless during showdown. *Until his hand is either tabled or mucked the pot should not be awarded to either player. Only at a point when all live hands have been tabled can a dealer award a pot, by killing all loosing hands off, or when a player holds the only live hand remaining at the table due to all other players folding/mucking.

That's by the book, I don't know the full story of what happened to make the TD award the pot to the player who had commenced his showdown, but in my own humble opinion I would usually rule that the player with the straight gets the pot.

I forgot - it is only too late when the first riffle or green button is pressed to mark the start of a new hand, disputes are valid that are raised before this point.

Regards
Stuart
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Old 08-07-15, 20:47   #40
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Originally Posted by PokerPiper View Post
The way it played out is bizarre but fair play to you for being honest about it. I have often seen situations like this where the player says nothing at all. Definitely think the floor could have done a better job in this case.
I was pointing it out to myself at the same time tbh I didn't even get to see his hand
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