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Old 14-05-15, 21:08   #1
Colddeck
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Folding AK - cash game

Hey there first post and all that....

Just looking for opinions on a hand I played recently, was a live cash game. Player directly to my left was absolutely insane 3 and 4 betting pf with basically any two cards, had already doubled me up AA v KJ.....he was literally raising every pot, sometimes blind and had about 800 in front of him, I had about 350.

I get AKs a limp knowing he will raise, which he does but then a strrt stack goes all in for about 45, I flat call that ( a weak play I know) in the hope crazy guy won't 4 bet it. Which he does up to 180. I thought about it for a while and folded, my thinking was I know i was ahead but do I really want to risk half my stack on a 60-40 shot when I could just wait for a better spot to clean him out, it still annoyed me though as I know it was technically the wrong play...

He turned over j7 and lost the small pot to the short stack

I did double up through him again with a set of ten's about an hour later so at least that part of my plan worked
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Old 14-05-15, 21:18   #2
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Originally Posted by Colddeck View Post
Hey there first post and all that....

Just looking for opinions on a hand I played recently, was a live cash game. Player directly to my left was absolutely insane 3 and 4 betting pf with basically any two cards, had already doubled me up AA v KJ.....he was literally raising every pot, sometimes blind and had about 800 in front of him, I had about 350.

I get AKs a limp knowing he will raise, which he does but then a strrt stack goes all in for about 45, I flat call that ( a weak play I know) in the hope crazy guy won't 4 bet it. Which he does up to 180. I thought about it for a while and folded, my thinking was I know i was ahead but do I really want to risk half my stack on a 60-40 shot when I could just wait for a better spot to clean him out, it still annoyed me though as I know it was technically the wrong play...

He turned over j7 and lost the small pot to the short stack

I did double up through him again with a set of ten's about an hour later so at least that part of my plan worked
the way you played it is fine but you obviously should be calling it off with a premium hand like AK vs a maniac. If you're that worried about the variance and not willing to get it in pf with AK here, I'd think about just folding the AK for the 45. Effectively you're turning AK into a hand like 22 or T9s if you're flatting here but folding to a (effective) shove. Would you have called with T9s in this spot or just folded it?
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Old 14-05-15, 21:34   #3
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Originally Posted by Jam-Fly View Post
the way you played it is fine but you obviously should be calling it off with a premium hand like AK vs a maniac. If you're that worried about the variance and not willing to get it in pf with AK here, I'd think about just folding the AK for the 45. Effectively you're turning AK into a hand like 22 or T9s if you're flatting here but folding to a (effective) shove. Would you have called with T9s in this spot or just folded it?
Eh, it's not tbh.

If he's 3/4 betting, then just raise the AK and let him 3bet you. I don't understand the limp.
You should be flatting the 45 with your blood pumping PRAYING he raises, not hoping that he doesn't.
You should be thrilled to get your money in as a 60/40 favourite. There isn't going to be a lot of better spots (also, it's not always going to be 60/40, he'll has Ax and Kx a lot too and we're in a super spot). There's no guarantee that someone else isn't going to clean him out first, or that you're going the get the monster you hope.
Sounds like you were playing scared money, so maybe you shouldn't be in such a high variance game, so probably best to lock up your profit and call it a day.
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Old 14-05-15, 21:35   #4
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Originally Posted by Jam-Fly View Post
the way you played it is fine but you obviously should be calling it off with a premium hand like AK vs a maniac. If you're that worried about the variance and not willing to get it in pf with AK here, I'd think about just folding the AK for the 45. Effectively you're turning AK into a hand like 22 or T9s if you're flatting here but folding to a (effective) shove. Would you have called with T9s in this spot or just folded it?
No I wouldn't have flat called with a hand like T9s, would have folded. I basically wanted to get the guy to the flop because he slowed down a bit post flop and was fairly easy to read. I suppose it was just a reluctance to get effectively all of my money in when I wasn't ahead by more than 60-40. I totally accept that it wasn't the optimal play
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Old 14-05-15, 21:35   #5
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I actually like the 45e flat so the maniac jams, flatting to fold to a shove is very weak. Played it fine up to the fold, folding long term is definitely -ev.
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Old 14-05-15, 21:52   #6
Colddeck
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Not playing scared money, I suppose I was just looking for a better spot to get all my money in. Should i really go for a glorified flip when i know if I play for long enough I wlil bust him?

PS. I understand mathematically it was a negative play
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Old 14-05-15, 21:57   #7
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Eh, it's not tbh.

If he's 3/4 betting, then just raise the AK and let him 3bet you. I don't understand the limp.
You should be flatting the 45 with your blood pumping PRAYING he raises, not hoping that he doesn't.
You should be thrilled to get your money in as a 60/40 favourite. There isn't going to be a lot of better spots (also, it's not always going to be 60/40, he'll has Ax and Kx a lot too and we're in a super spot). There's no guarantee that someone else isn't going to clean him out first, or that you're going the get the monster you hope.
Sounds like you were playing scared money, so maybe you shouldn't be in such a high variance game, so probably best to lock up your profit and call it a day.
The limp was simply controlling the pot size until I had a better idea of my hand, i was very much of the opinion that the longer I played the more I would win off this guy and i just didn't fancy a flip
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Old 14-05-15, 22:19   #8
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Eh, it's not tbh.

If he's 3/4 betting, then just raise the AK and let him 3bet you. I don't understand the limp.
Tbh, I think it's totally dependent on game dynamics whether a limp or an open is better and there's not enough details in OP to be sure. Stack sizes of other players, the size of the maniac's opens and 3-bets and the tendency of other players to flat call the maniac are all really important factors to consider. In a lot of situations, limping, letting the maniac raise, and catching a few players in the middle is often optimal.
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Old 14-05-15, 22:27   #9
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No I wouldn't have flat called with a hand like T9s, would have folded. I basically wanted to get the guy to the flop because he slowed down a bit post flop and was fairly easy to read. I suppose it was just a reluctance to get effectively all of my money in when I wasn't ahead by more than 60-40. I totally accept that it wasn't the optimal play
How often did you expect him to 4-bet though? It sounds like there are very few times you actually call the €45 and get to the flop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colddeck View Post
Not playing scared money, I suppose I was just looking for a better spot to get all my money in. Should i really go for a glorified flip when i know if I play for long enough I wlil bust him?

PS. I understand mathematically it was a negative play
If you're not playing scared money, you absolutely have to get it in. If you have money in your pocket and lose this very +EV spot, you can just reload and will still be likely to bust him.

If you are playing scared money, I actually think it's ok to stay at the table, but you'll need to tweak your pf game a bit. You shouldn't be putting money in the pot unless A) you're willing to get it all-in pf, or B) the action has passed the maniac. And even in the case of the B), I'd be playing with a fairly tight range of hands that can flop well. Basically, you have to avoid spots where you're bleeding off money to him.
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Old 14-05-15, 22:39   #10
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How often did you expect him to 4-bet though? It sounds like there are very few times you actually call the 45 and get to the flop.
This is the part where I have the most problems with my play, I guessed about 80% of the time he 4 bets and I still flat call, which was terrible.



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Originally Posted by Jam-Fly View Post
If you're not playing scared money, you absolutely have to get it in. If you have money in your pocket and lose this very +EV spot, you can just reload and will still be likely to bust him.

If you are playing scared money, I actually think it's ok to stay at the table, but you'll need to tweak your pf game a bit. You shouldn't be putting money in the pot unless A) you're willing to get it all-in pf, or B) the action has passed the maniac. And even in the case of the B), I'd be playing with a fairly tight range of hands that can flop well. Basically, you have to avoid spots where you're bleeding off money to him.
He was sitting directly on my left, yep I could have reloaded but obviously would of preferred not to. All I was waiting for was to get him to the flop and hit top pair or better and milk him on every street or else wait for another premium pair and get it in pf, it wasn't like I was waiting to hit the nuts before getting my money in against him
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Old 14-05-15, 22:52   #11
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This is the part where I have the most problems with my play, I guessed about 80% of the time he 4 bets and I still flat call, which was terrible.


He was sitting directly on my left, yep I could have reloaded but obviously would of preferred not to. All I was waiting for was to get him to the flop and hit top pair or better and milk him on every street or else wait for another premium pair and get it in pf, it wasn't like I was waiting to hit the nuts before getting my money in against him
yeah I think it's just a case of not realising the true strength of AK. AK is probably about 65% versus his range and you just can't afford to give up 65-35 spots for the sake of lowering your variance. Fwiw, you intuition is somewhat correct and you're probably correct to pass up the 52-48 spots, but 65-35 is just too big an edge to pass up.
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Old 14-05-15, 23:07   #12
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Originally Posted by Colddeck View Post
had about 800 in front of him, I had about 350.

I get AKs a limp knowing he will raise, which he does but then a strrt stack goes all in for about 45, I flat call that ( a weak play I know) in the hope crazy guy won't 4 bet it. Which he does up to 180. I thought about it for a while and folded, my thinking was I know i was ahead but do I really want to risk half my stack on a 60-40 shot when I could just wait for a better spot to clean him out, it still annoyed me though as I know it was technically the wrong play...
You should not be risking half your stack on a 60-40. Once you call and he raises you should be risking all your stack with an overlay. ie you should be risking 305 with 45(short stack)+45(you)+350(maniac after he has 4b and called your shove). So risking 305 to win 440 from main pot or 395 from side pot between you and maniac. Very unlikely but he could even fold when you shove and you pick up 135 uncontested and are freerolling for the other 135 with the shortstack. You played it quite beautifully until you folded tbh



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Originally Posted by brady23 View Post
I actually like the 45e flat so the maniac jams, flatting to fold to a shove is very weak. Played it fine up to the fold, folding long term is definitely -ev.
bit pedantic but folding has an ev of 0


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Originally Posted by Flushdraw View Post
You should be thrilled to get your money in as a 60/40 favourite. There isn't going to be a lot of better spots (also, it's not always going to be 60/40, he'll has Ax and Kx a lot too and we're in a super spot). There's no guarantee that someone else isn't going to clean him out first, or that you're going the get the monster you hope.
.
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Old 14-05-15, 23:53   #13
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This table is a dream situation.

Once you have a few bullets in your pocket, you need to take any small edge vs. the maniac.

This means ripping AIPF in this hand once he isolates the short stack jam.

It means more short term variance, but in the long run it prints money.
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Old 15-05-15, 01:06   #14
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bit pedantic but folding has an ev of 0
I think he meant the "flat call, fold to a raise" as a whole was -ev.

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Originally Posted by Colddeck View Post
Not playing scared money, I suppose I was just looking for a better spot to get all my money in. Should i really go for a glorified flip when i know if I play for long enough I wlil bust him?

PS. I understand mathematically it was a negative play
That's more or less the definition of scared money tbh.
A 60/40 isn't a flip. The guy in front wins 1.5 times as often, that makes a big difference.
You are risking 305 to win 440. Getting it in here makes €142 on average. You can't justify passing that for a better spot. If you aren't risking your stack on a high variance, +EV hand, then you should bank the profits and go.

The idea of a better spot largely a fallacy. This hand doesn't affect future spots. A better spot may or may not come up. But if it does, why wait for it? It makes more sense to try to win here, then walk into it as the big stack and take the rest of his money.
You are folding here to win 300 later, when you should be taking both and winning 900.

Even if you know this whale will spew it all eventually, you can't guarantee that it'll go to you. All the other players are eyeballing his stack too.
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Old 15-05-15, 03:15   #15
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NIT
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Old 15-05-15, 09:46   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colddeck View Post
Hey there first post and all that....

Just looking for opinions on a hand I played recently, was a live cash game. Player directly to my left was absolutely insane 3 and 4 betting pf with basically any two cards, had already doubled me up AA v KJ.....he was literally raising every pot, sometimes blind and had about 800 in front of him, I had about 350.

I get AKs a limp knowing he will raise, which he does but then a strrt stack goes all in for about 45, I flat call that ( a weak play I know) in the hope crazy guy won't 4 bet it. Which he does up to 180. I thought about it for a while and folded, my thinking was I know i was ahead but do I really want to risk half my stack on a 60-40 shot when I could just wait for a better spot to clean him out, it still annoyed me though as I know it was technically the wrong play...

He turned over j7 and lost the small pot to the short stack

I did double up through him again with a set of ten's about an hour later so at least that part of my plan worked
Why not open raise knowing he will 3-bet ? Hate limp here. Limping has effectively caused you to be in this spot. Clearly your opponents have no idea how strong you are here and you are being exploited as a result. You should be trying to get it in against maniac with such as strong holding imo.
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Old 15-05-15, 10:11   #17
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If you do decide to limp AK here it should only be to 3bet/4bet it when it comes back to you.
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Old 15-05-15, 10:45   #18
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Hi OP,

Sounds like you were playing a bit out of your comfort zone in terms of stakes. Ask yourself how you would have played it if the blinds and stacks were half what you were playing. I think you'll answer your own question then. It's exactly the same in terms of game theory / strategy, and situational play.

I'm guessing you'd have raised UTG hoping the manaic 3-bet so you could 4 bet shove. You'd have plenty of fold equity (contrary to popular belief, fold equity means your chance of making your opponent fold IE: how pot committed IS HE, not you) still here, but if he called you know you're at worst flipping, but will often have him dominated circa 73% / 4% / 23% W/D/L

The better players don't like to call off their stacks on a flip or even 60/40 (to keep variance lower, especially if they have a big post flop edge through the streets on the table in question, and game dynamic) but the key is fold equity. You put the pressure back on him by shoving and you have enough behind you to force him to fold to a 4-bet shove. Also you may pick up some dead money from someone trying to get in speculatively in position multi-way against this loon for huge implied odds.

You've repeatedly said you know you made mistakes so that suggests you simply were not comfortable to play what you saw as optimally with the money involved. This is normal. Variance is very high with maniacs at the cash tables and not everyone can throw a few hundred in willy nilly
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Old 15-05-15, 14:39   #19
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I actually like the 45e flat so the maniac jams, flatting to fold to a shove is very weak. Played it fine up to the fold, folding long term is definitely -ev.
Folding is always neutral ev

Edit see others got there first.

Mellor gets it, even if it was a coin flip (which it isn't) the dead money makes it hugely profitable to get it in.

Last edited by Hectorjelly; 15-05-15 at 14:45. Reason: nm
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Old 15-05-15, 15:00   #20
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When you call what do you think this guy does? If you think you fold to a raise then you fold without calling. Anyway I'd have jammed it in.
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