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Old 15-02-15, 00:58   #1
Flushdraw
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Flop the world with 56s

It's been a while since I've seen a hand here, so seeing as that's what we used to do, I'll stick one up that has been bothering me since last night that I think I played badly.

This is from a €100fo on Winamax and it's a relatively deep table. I think I could have chosen to play every single street different. The opener is a fish and most of the hands would have been from smaller stakes tournaments as his avg buyin is only $17. I can't remember much from the other guy because i was playing 12+ tournaments, but he hasn't played many hands. I got a good run of cards at this table so if he's paying attention, he might have seen me in a few pots.

€75/€150 No Limit Holdem
Winamax
9 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG KKick_ur_AAs (€19,082) 127bb
UTG+1 Matslide (€17,860) 119bb
MP1 GrayNutria (€18,908) 126bb
MP2 Hero (€36,730) 245bb
MP3 Benzo75 (€19,310) 129bb
CO amourtortues (€17,250) 115bb
BTN HanK_HulaY (€15,610) 104bb
SB Pessagno (€19,850) 132bb
BB La Rage Pute (€18,993) 127bb

Pre-Flop: (€225, 9 players) Hero is MP2 5 6
KKick_ur_AAs raises to €450, 2 folds, Hero calls €450, 4 folds, La Rage Pute calls €300

Flop: 4 9 7 (€1,425, 3 players)
La Rage Pute checks, KKick_ur_AAs bets €900, Hero calls €900, La Rage Pute raises to €2,850, KKick_ur_AAs calls €1,950, Hero calls €1,950

Turn: K (€9,975, 3 players)
La Rage Pute bets €4,200, KKick_ur_AAs calls €4,200, Hero?

Stats (overload) are below and HUD is

VPIP/PFR/Steal/FoldtoSteal/3bet/Foldto3bet
Cbet/TurnCbet/FoldtoCbet/RFI-EP/RFI-MP/M
FlopAgg/TurnAgg/RiverAgg/BB/Hands



Thoughts on all streets?
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Old 15-02-15, 02:34   #2
noname1255
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3b pre?more likely to get heads up, deep enough to call small 4b
as played i think i get it in on flop would be nice to get it in against an overpair if the bb has a set its not the end of the world especially if the fun player cant fold his overpair
just pray the bb hasnt got a9ss but thats all id be afraid of
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Old 15-02-15, 14:48   #3
LTL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noname1255 View Post
3b pre?more likely to get heads up, deep enough to call small 4b
This is by far the worst option, 3bet calling 4bet vs a utgs range is beyond bad. Are you suggesting 3bet to 1050 and call 3k 4bet vs a 19k stack that's heavily weighted to JJ+?

I probably fold pre with 4 behind in a bigger buy-in where you describe utg as weak and therefore more inclined to be 3bet iso'd from behind,calling's hardly bad though. As played either calling or raising the cbet seems fine and once you flat I just flat the c/r too.

Turn's gross but I know in game I don't fold. I just don't expect to ever get value on any river , and not suprised when I'm not good either vs bigger flushs.
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Old 15-02-15, 15:48   #4
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This is by far the worst option, 3bet calling 4bet vs a utgs range is beyond bad. Are you suggesting 3bet to 1050 and call 3k 4bet vs a 19k stack that's heavily weighted to JJ+?

I probably fold pre with 4 behind in a bigger buy-in where you describe utg as weak and therefore more inclined to be 3bet iso'd from behind,calling's hardly bad though. As played either calling or raising the cbet seems fine and once you flat I just flat the c/r too.

Turn's gross but I know in game I don't fold. I just don't expect to ever get value on any river , and not suprised when I'm not good either vs bigger flushs.

folding isnt bad pre fair enough,i defo like to be in later pos.
i dont think we are 4b alot i doubt a fun player 4bs jj maybe not even qq and when he 4bs kk aa id call one of those silly click back bets (not 3k no)
with 56ss i want to be against exactly this big pair type hand
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Old 15-02-15, 15:58   #5
Flushdraw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noname1255 View Post
with 56ss i want to be against exactly this big pair type hand
56s isn't a hand that i generally try to get HU with at a deepish table. I'm happy enough to go multiway with it. It's a hand i'll 3bet with quite a bit, but don't think it's the best ploy in this particular spot.
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Old 16-02-15, 11:23   #6
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I dont mind the call pre with 56s. It plays well multiway. - as you've said. Also the opener is almost always cbetting so if you hit gin, you can win a nice pot. I think the BB just thinks he's 'priced in' Not enough stats for any other read.

flop is fine too, you can either call or fold the cr. It's possible that the BB has flopped 2 pair or a set or something. I don't think it's a hoof. If the opener has anything good at this stage, I think he's re-popping the CR.

The turn is a bit of an ugh card. The BB lead and more importantly the UTG's call is screaming strength at this point. If the BB has flopped a set, that's taking away some of your outs, If UTG has a higher FD, you're fecked.

I think I'm letting this one go.
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Old 16-02-15, 11:47   #7
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I'd probably fold pre too, flop I think is fine, argument for raising etc but seems fine. I fold turn, I think it comes down effective stacks and without running any numbers, I don't think the implied odds are there.
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Old 16-02-15, 11:57   #8
Flushdraw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTL View Post

Turn's gross but I know in game I don't fold. I just don't expect to ever get value on any river , and not suprised when I'm not good either vs bigger flushs.
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Originally Posted by newbie2 View Post
The turn is a bit of an ugh card. The BB lead and more importantly the UTG's call is screaming strength at this point. If the BB has flopped a set, that's taking away some of your outs, If UTG has a higher FD, you're fecked.

I think I'm letting this one go.
Yeah, I did think about folding the turn, seeing as I was possibly only drawing the straight nut outs at this point but decided to peel because I was thinking the BB might have flopped a set/top2/FD and i still think I stack off to him in game if I hit a spade on the river tbh. UTG did show strength but not necessarily nut strength.

Here's the river. BB jams, UTG fold and I fold getting 3/1. It's been niggling me whether I should fold turn becasue after getting to the river, I don't think he jams 97, 9x so he really should only have a house/bigger FD here.

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Old 16-02-15, 12:09   #9
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Yeah, after the BB bets turn, he's only got a Pot sized bet behind. It was always going in on the river. Another reason I'm folding the turn. There aren't very many cards I want to see on the river and the K of spades is probably the worst one TBH.

I don't think he's jamming here with 2 pair or a worse flush. In fairness, I think he's turned his hand face up.

I would like to know what UTG was doing ? !?

I know we're getting 3/1 but I thnik I fold here too.
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Old 16-02-15, 12:18   #10
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Yeah, after the BB bets turn, he's only got a Pot sized bet behind. It was always going in on the river. Another reason I'm folding the turn. There aren't very many cards I want to see on the river and the K of spades is probably the worst one TBH.

I don't think he's jamming here with 2 pair or a worse flush. In fairness, I think he's turned his hand face up.

I would like to know what UTG was doing ? !?

I know we're getting 3/1 but I thnik I fold here too.
I don't think calling turn and folding river makes much sense, if you get to the river, you have to call, only have to be right like 26% of the time to make it a break even call. Call turn gotta call river
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Old 16-02-15, 12:27   #11
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I don't think calling turn and folding river makes much sense, if you get to the river, you have to call, only have to be right like 26% of the time to make it a break even call. Call turn gotta call river
Unless he decided to turn his hand into a bluff, i'm not sure what we beat. The only hand that he might be value betting that we beat is KXs and he backdoored trips. K9 is another hand that would make sense. Weakish players tend to c/r this on the flop, and I like how he played turn/river if that was the case. I just don't think i'm ahead 26% of the time here.
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Old 16-02-15, 12:30   #12
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Thinking is overrated.
Snap it off for the bants.


fwiw I definitely fold turn, probably play all other streets the same
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Old 16-02-15, 12:34   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flushdraw View Post
Unless he decided to turn his hand into a bluff, i'm not sure what we beat. The only hand that he might be value betting that we beat is KXs and he backdoored trips. K9 is another hand that would make sense. Weakish players tend to c/r this on the flop, and I like how he played turn/river if that was the case. I just don't think i'm ahead 26% of the time here.
Yeah I think it's pretty close, I think his range is quite nutted, gotta be right 1 in every 4 times. It's probably marginal, imo regardless of any pre flop preference, the mistake is made on the turn.
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Old 16-02-15, 12:49   #14
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Originally Posted by brady23 View Post
Yeah I think it's pretty close, I think his range is quite nutted, gotta be right 1 in every 4 times. It's probably marginal, imo regardless of any pre flop preference, the mistake is made on the turn.
Yeah, still unsure if it's a big mistake on the turn. I have 8 outs to the actual nuts (4x3's and 4x8's as 106 and J10 are never there, unless J10s) so ~16% and i'm getting 4.5/1 immeditiate pot odds plus I stack at least 1 of them if i hit. I'm less inclined to think the NFD plays it this way so I could have another 8 spade outs that I might not get paid off though. My hand is pretty face up as a draw too. If i did fold turn, I'd have to hide the table and never look back at the HH again
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Old 16-02-15, 13:10   #15
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Yeah, still unsure if it's a big mistake on the turn. I have 8 outs to the actual nuts (4x3's and 4x8's as 106 and J10 are never there, unless J10s) so ~16% and i'm getting 4.5/1 immeditiate pot odds plus I stack at least 1 of them if i hit. I'm less inclined to think the NFD plays it this way so I could have another 8 spade outs that I might not get paid off though. My hand is pretty face up as a draw too. If i did fold turn, I'd have to hide the table and never look back at the HH again
Oh I think if they are deeper or even 1 is then it's a defo call but given effective stacks, I'm not convinced, I haven't been running numbers in over 6 months so I can't be sure.
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Old 16-02-15, 17:59   #16
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this is easy enough spot really,
it all really comes down to knowing how the bb plays his stats are easy to read he very tight so pair wise 77 bottom of his range so puts 99 in there aswell ,,,

all comes down to is he a pot controller does he like to just cal with his draws or does he like to checkraise id check his check raise % if you dont no this , if it very low safe to say prob 77 or 99 you ran into and for that reason id cal turn he has so little behind he never folding river when you hit and you can easily call this on none paired board with your straight or flush if they got there
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Old 16-02-15, 18:18   #17
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this is easy enough spot really,
it all really comes down to knowing how the bb plays his stats are easy to read he very tight so pair wise 77 bottom of his range so puts 99 in there aswell ,,,

all comes down to is he a pot controller does he like to just cal with his draws or does he like to checkraise id check his check raise % if you dont no this , if it very low safe to say prob 77 or 99 you ran into and for that reason id cal turn he has so little behind he never folding river when you hit and you can easily call this on none paired board with your straight or flush if they got there
It's only 25 hands so i'm not reading too much into his stats but he did seem tight up to that point. Yeah, as said, i'm calling to pretty much stacking off if i hit any of my draws on the river but the Ks was a nasty card. Would probably have folded a non pair spade if both players shoved also.
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Old 16-02-15, 18:20   #18
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It's only 25 hands so i'm not reading too much into his stats but he did seem tight up to that point. Yeah, as said, i'm calling to pretty much stacking off if i hit any of my draws on the river but the Ks was a nasty card. Would probably have folded a non pair spade if both players shoved also.
ye sorry didnt realize it was such a small a sample my bad i really got spend more time reading these lol
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Old 16-02-15, 18:29   #19
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i use to make these mistakes all the time i dont think its ever gonna be good for you playing big pots with so little information about a player or what there even capable of with week holding s id let these spots go
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Old 16-02-15, 19:17   #20
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As played I'm for sure folding the river, and I'm also always calling the turn getting 4.5/1 with 8 outs to the nuts, 6 of which if we hit, we're stacking the guy nearly every time. Also, the 5 other non pairing spades very likely gives us the best hand and we may get some value on river if checked to. Played fine imo just rotten runout.
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