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Old 05-01-15, 02:04   #21
Arazi
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Omg it so isn't.
We (OP) seem to be assuming villain has an overpair. We have 12 outs vs AA and KK, perhaps 15 vs QQ & poss 17 vs JJ so why should we be worried about getting "action". The guy only has about 10% of his stack in (assuming standard preflop action) so even with AA he can't love the prospect of putting his money in.

Theoretically we are favourites right now so our object IMO should be to get as much money in now as possible whilst also having the opportunity to win it here and now.

Last edited by Arazi; 05-01-15 at 02:06.
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Old 05-01-15, 02:23   #22
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Can you clarify raise size in hand 2? I think there are hands that villain bet-folds here so I'd favour a raise. You only need villain to fold a small percentage of the time for it to tilt the balance back in favour of jamming.
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Old 05-01-15, 02:52   #23
Hectorjelly
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Originally Posted by Arazi View Post
Omg it so isn't.
We (OP) seem to be assuming villain has an overpair. We have 12 outs vs AA and KK, perhaps 15 vs QQ & poss 17 vs JJ so why should we be worried about getting "action". The guy only has about 10% of his stack in (assuming standard preflop action) so even with AA he can't love the prospect of putting his money in.

Theoretically we are favourites right now so our object IMO should be to get as much money in now as possible whilst also having the opportunity to win it here and now.
I think you might get a better response if you tried to be a bit more civil. Just saying you hate the logic without any explanation is worthless.

I also don't think you are really reading what I'm saying, you seem to be responding to something else entirely. If you think someone is going to pass AA on a 9Tx board for 100bbs then raise away. I would never expect anyone to (and would play them totally differently than the villain as described).

Also your last statement is laughably wrong. The object of poker isn't to wait until you have a slight equity edge and then get as much money in as possible, its to make as much money as possible; and they won't always be the same thing.
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Old 05-01-15, 03:34   #24
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I think you might get a better response if you tried to be a bit more civil. Just saying you hate the logic without any explanation is worthless.

I also don't think you are really reading what I'm saying, you seem to be responding to something else entirely. If you think someone is going to pass AA on a 9Tx board for 100bbs then raise away. I would never expect anyone to (and would play them totally differently than the villain as described).

Also your last statement is laughably wrong. The object of poker isn't to wait until you have a slight equity edge and then get as much money in as possible, its to make as much money as possible; and they won't always be the same thing.
Keep your panties on there hectorjelly. Arazi is entitled to his opinion, even if it is wrong.

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Old 05-01-15, 05:29   #25
Hectorjelly
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Keep your panties on there hectorjelly. Arazi is entitled to his opinion, even if it is wrong.
I'm sure he can speak for himself
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Old 05-01-15, 09:11   #26
Arazi
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HJ, I'm really not going to get into another argument about the civility of my responses on a public forum, we've done that before.

It should be quite obvious why I said that I hate your logic and your reasoning as it differs entirely from my initial response. If you want to go raising flopped Quads in a multiway pot on a drawy board where there's already been a bet and several calls then go ahead. Personally I flat here always for the reasons I gave.
My reply was certainly less crass than simply saying "you are totally wrong".

However once again I've made the mistake of thinking that a post of yours in the theory section is a call for advice and debate rather than an egotistic precursor to an attempt by you to school the rest of us on your theories of poker. I believe you would do well to realise that a lot of people that read this site are considerably better than you at poker, "make a lot more money" (really, thanks for informing me that this is the object) & aren't Afraid of getting it in when guaranteed to be at least flipping.

Now having said all that I'll resist the temptation to tell you where to go with yourself.
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Old 05-01-15, 10:08   #27
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Now having said all that I'll resist the temptation to tell you where to go with yourself.
And yet somehow it feels like you haven't resisted at all...
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Old 05-01-15, 10:40   #28
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Not important at all in a live 1/2 game, and these days getting it in with a combo draw is superstandard, nobody is going to even notice it
Conversely, if you hit and show it down, players paying attention will definitely notice that you didn't get them in with a massive draw.
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Old 05-01-15, 11:02   #29
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I think you might get a better response if you tried to be a bit more civil. Just saying you hate the logic without any explanation is worthless.

I also don't think you are really reading what I'm saying, you seem to be responding to something else entirely. If you think someone is going to pass AA on a 9Tx board for 100bbs then raise away. I would never expect anyone to (and would play them totally differently than the villain as described).

Also your last statement is laughably wrong. The object of poker isn't to wait until you have a slight equity edge and then get as much money in as possible, its to make as much money as possible; and they won't always be the same thing.
Do they always have AA here? Do they sometimes have JJ-KK, and if so, do they ever fold these hands? What about AK and AQ, do they just check-fold the flop? If you have flopped bottom set in this hand, do you just shove because villain always has an over-pair and never folds?
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Old 05-01-15, 12:34   #30
Hectorjelly
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However once again I've made the mistake of thinking that a post of yours in the theory section is a call for advice and debate rather than an egotistic precursor to an attempt by you to school the rest of us on your theories of poker. I believe you would do well to realise that a lot of people that read this site are considerably better than you at poker, "make a lot more money" (really, thanks for informing me that this is the object) & aren't Afraid of getting it in when guaranteed to be at least flipping.

Now having said all that I'll resist the temptation to tell you where to go with yourself.
I thought these were interesting spots because what I thought was the best play (after the fact) was almost the opposite than the standard line would be, I was just hoping for more explanation to a point than "I hate your reasoning". To me the bare minimum it requires is an explanation. What logic is wrong? What assumption do you disagree with? I am open to being wrong, (especially by those people better at poker than me). Am I being ridiculous here?
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Old 05-01-15, 12:41   #31
Hectorjelly
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Do they always have AA here? Do they sometimes have JJ-KK, and if so, do they ever fold these hands? What about AK and AQ, do they just check-fold the flop? If you have flopped bottom set in this hand, do you just shove because villain always has an over-pair and never folds?
Yes, my whole argument is based upon quite a strong read on that player type, as well as using the cards in our hand. Most normal players could have quite a widish range here (like good tens) against which we have much better equity, but to me a tight old guy raising in EP means AK,AQ or AA - JJ, AK with JJ somewhat discounted. I don't think he full pots the flop without an overpair, NFD or set. Its almost impossible for him to have the NFD when we have the K and Q and he raised utg (although AJs is slightly possible and has us in terrible shape anyway). Everything points to him having aces.
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Old 05-01-15, 13:04   #32
Arazi
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Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
I thought these were interesting spots because what I thought was the best play (after the fact) was almost the opposite than the standard line would be, I was just hoping for more explanation to a point than "I hate your reasoning". To me the bare minimum it requires is an explanation. What logic is wrong? What assumption do you disagree with? I am open to being wrong, (especially by those people better at poker than me). Am I being ridiculous here?
My reply in Post #7 is completely contrary to yours in Post #14, hence me saying that I hated your logic and reasoning , note I didn't say it was wrong. I also didn't say I disagreed with any assumptions you made in the hand. Personally I'd give him a wider range and I'd expect a tight player could fold an overpair in this spot (prob not AA or KK) but I think u might struggle to get paid if u flat and filled on the turn.

If you tell us the exact bets and stack sizes I could elaborate on my line.
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Old 05-01-15, 14:21   #33
Hectorjelly
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Hand 2 I wasn't involved in so I'm not sure of the exact amounts, it was something like utg make it Ä11 pre, one caller. Flop bet is Ä25, with Ä225 left to go in.

Hand 1 I flat called the flop, turn was a Jack which was checked around (don't like my check here), river 8 and the shortstack shoved having rivered a straight. The BB thought for a long time before folding the river.
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Old 05-01-15, 14:56   #34
Arazi
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Hand 2 looks fine as played, it worked out pretty well. I guess you could have bet something small on the turn to inflate/induce.

Hand 1, stacks are a touch tricky (he started with 260ish).
It's too much to jam although you could jam.

I'd make it around 85 and obv call if he jams.
If he calls and jams a blank turn I can fold as pot odds would prob be slightly against calling.
If he checks a blank turn I prob check behind.
If we hit turn and he jams, Bingo.
If we hit turn and he checks then we jam, he will call here lots.
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Old 05-01-15, 19:39   #35
Hectorjelly
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With the stacks as they are, if you call it leaves a really bad spot for the out of position player on the turn. The pot will be 75 with 200 left. If they full pot it they are basically committing themselves (225 pot with only 125 left), anything less and they are giving close to direct pot odds to call, never mind implied odds. Also if they do happen to have a bet folding range on this flop, a lot of it will check fold either the turn or river.
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Old 05-01-15, 23:37   #36
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@Hj Are you calling turn again if he pots it on a brick.? We'd still have 25% equity with 150 behind. Are you thinking about bluffing say a ten river if he checks, or is bluffing right out? I'd say bluffing would probably be bad. I think in fairness it does change things a little when its 130bbs deep. If we take Arazis line and sizing then we must fold to a turn shove 130 deep but probably call 100 deep although it would be marginal. Also just wondering why you think AA is much more likely than JJ
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Old 06-01-15, 04:42   #37
Hectorjelly
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@Hj Are you calling turn again if he pots it on a brick.? We'd still have 25% equity with 150 behind. Are you thinking about bluffing say a ten river if he checks, or is bluffing right out? I'd say bluffing would probably be bad. I think in fairness it does change things a little when its 130bbs deep. If we take Arazis line and sizing then we must fold to a turn shove 130 deep but probably call 100 deep although it would be marginal. Also just wondering why you think AA is much more likely than JJ
Calling any bet on a turn unless its an overbet, I don't think this is too likely though. You might get someone to fold on a ten river, or they might call because all the draws missed. Against an ok/good hand reader I'd like to raise a 8 turn, not in this spot though.

I think AA is more likely because tight players sometimes limp call JJ from EP
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Old 06-01-15, 12:43   #38
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I think AA is more likely because tight players sometimes limp call JJ from EP[/QUOTE]


Very unlikely anyone is playing JJ this awful anymore no matter how tight they are



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