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Old 20-12-14, 20:10   #1
Hectorjelly
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Some interesting spots

All live 12

Hand 1)

Two limpers and I make it 10 on the button with 55. Blinds and limpers call. Flop is 556 two hearts. BB leads out for 17 and gets two calls before it gets to me. Best line? Stack sizes are roughly 300, 400, 100. All players are not good at folding.

Hand 2)

Tight old man raises utg. I call on button with KQ hearts. Flop is 9Tx with the 9T of hearts. He leads for full pot. a) What is his most likely hand b) whats the best play (100bb stack)

Last edited by Hectorjelly; 20-12-14 at 20:13.
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Old 20-12-14, 20:31   #2
dobby
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Hand 1. I see no reason to not bump it to 50ish. Very wet flop with plenty of draws likely and possibly an A6 may call? Or any 6 might call here. I'd play turn aggressively too trying to get them in obviously and may also look like you just want to nick a juicy pot.

Hand 2. Is nearly always a premium. AK at worst. I'd just flat. If you hit he will still check call cos he will know he's likely behind but won't want to fold a huge hand. Unless you feel like a gambool to get them in, I'd just flat and bet/raise when made.
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Old 22-12-14, 07:44   #3
Hectorjelly
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Hand 1 I like your thinking but 50 is too much, a min raise I think is perfect. Any players with gutshots will probably call a min raise but not much more. I think a raise gives away the strength of my hand a little, but it looks like A5 which people will happily try to crack.
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Old 22-12-14, 08:34   #4
dobby
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I think a min raise would show your strength more than a raise to 50. If you make it 50 it screams premium to me and you just don't want to give it up. You bumped it to 10 pre after a couple of limps so that always looks premium imo. If you min it, it looks a lot stronger 66 or A5 I'd be thinking. And if they're gonna call a min here, they're calling 50. We're nearly guaranteed someone has a hand to go to war with on this flop so I see no reason to just min it.
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Old 22-12-14, 09:24   #5
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Hand 1 - There's Ä100 in pot by time it gets to you so I don't think 50 is a bad raise. The clue is in your line that they're not good at folding.

Plus you want to be able to get a good bit in on the turn as well so the more you can push your flop raise the better.

Hand 2 - If he's tight and old and utg, he's probably something like 10s +, AQ+. His pot bet is probably his attempt to price you out/protect his hand. I'm probably just calling but with 100bb effective and your chances of hitting I don;t mind raising either.
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Old 22-12-14, 11:25   #6
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I'd be flat calling in both hands and sometimes raising Hand 1, never Hand 2. Like the 50 bet size suggested already. Should make a big payday if a 6, 4, 8 or heart pop up on the turn.
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Old 22-12-14, 11:32   #7
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Hand 1 - Flat give as many players as poss a chance to make their hand on the turn whilst disguising your strength. If you raise you may get callers but its likely to be checked around to you.

Hand 2 - get it in.
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Old 22-12-14, 11:53   #8
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Hand 1) think the decision mainly rests on how you've been plating thus far- if you've taken aggressive lines previously then a raise seems ideal (45-50 seems about right to me) but it does look strong so have to ask would you raise 99 or TT here - if yes - which I would guess is the answer - then I would raise but if you have taken a lot of calling in position type lines with 1 pair hands then flatting seems best, especially as if you flat there will be 118 in the pot (I think) so can probably get stacks in by river if someone makes a straight / flush or has 66 (~80 in to 118 on turn + ~190 into 280 on river [assumes 1 caller on turn])...

Hand 2) depends how tight is tight - guessing he is still raising 77+ AT+ (?) but is less likely to bet no pair hands so JJ-AA seems pretty feasible - think you have relatively little fold equity so flatting seems best on face value , villain can also have AK a decent amount and shut down on turn if misses ,and if has a made hand will most likely pay off 2 decent street if you get there

On the other hand, with such a strong draw a small raise seems good, depending on how likely you think he is to stick it in your eye - one pair hands, even AA ,will often go into check call mode if facing aggression so can often safely pot build here for when we hit while making it a more believable line to try and get him off on later streets for when we don't
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Old 24-12-14, 13:43   #9
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Hand 1.. I think the best play is flat in the spot. You have a dream hand in a dream spot and the other players are doing the work why raise and risk them folding ? I know you said they are not good at folding but if you raise here it screams i have a monster. Flat call and let them improve theirs hands hopefully get more that one to commit their stack..

Hand 2.. I also flat call. Our hand is to big to give up on but if we raise and get shoved on its a horrible spot especially when the villains more that likely shows up with a monster pair or set then we have to hit to win.. If we call we can control the pot in position and maximise or winning when we hit the flush or straight.. Also when we call we have the advantage of seeing how he will play on the turn maybe he shuts down with AJ+ and we can take the hand down by betting


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Old 24-12-14, 13:59   #10
ViperEyeIRL
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Hand 2.. if we raise and get shoved on its a horrible spot
we are never in a horrible spot here if we raise, we are flipping vs JJ+ if he shove and can get him to fold hands he is ahead of us right now AK/AQ/88, etc.


1. I like to flat, we should get to play for stacks by the river anyway if a lot of chips get in on the turn.

2. Raise (and call if shoved obv). If I get called I may barrel some turns, check behind some others, depending on reads. I just don't want to get check/shoved on the turn though.
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Old 24-12-14, 14:18   #11
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[QUOTE=ViperEyeIRL;861723]we are never in a horrible spot here if we raise, we are flipping vs JJ+ if he shove and can get him to fold hands he is ahead of us right now AK/AQ/88, etc.


Yea horrible spot wasn't the correct choice of words to use lol.. At least a flip can hardly qualify for a horrible spot what i meant was if he shoves to our raise we have to call knowing we need to hit but i can see your point and i think you are correct if he folds we win what is in the middle and he shoves we are still very much alive and its best to have 2 cards to come instead of one if we plan to get it in on the turn..




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Old 24-12-14, 17:02   #12
BobSloane
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Hand 1 I probably call...pretty unusual situation tbf

Hand 2 I raise/call. His most likely hand I suppose is AA/JJ..(is this 9 handed?)..hopefully not nfd. Not impossible that someone could fold an overpair here(I'm fairly tight and getting on in years - I mean if you have JJ here what are you hoping to get it in against). To everyone advocating a call whats the plan on a brick turn if he pots it again?
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Old 26-12-14, 01:13   #13
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where are the interesting spots again??? :P

hand 1: flat
hand 2: flat

!
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Old 04-01-15, 07:12   #14
Hectorjelly
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Hand 1, I much prefer raising to calling as you vastly inflate the pot making it a lot easier to stack people. Every single turn card is going to be a scare card for most holdings so the more money that goes in on the flop the better. I don't think anyone is folding a gutshot to a minraise, they might fold for more. Also if you look at the stacks if I make it 34 the third guy might just shove his 100 in allowing me to just call and the pot to get even bigger. Raising announces the strength of my hand somewhat, but its worth it to increase the size of the pot.

Hand 2, Tight old man raises utg and pots that flop, we block AK and AQ fd, so he pretty much always has an overpair, most likely aces (given his position and our blockers). I saw this exact hand happen twice and thought the guy in position could play his hand much better than just getting it in because that happens to be slightly +EV. If the old guy has a bet folding range then getting it in is fine, but in my experience they don't.
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Old 04-01-15, 18:41   #15
AndyFatBastard
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I like getting it in in hand 2, not because it's a +EV spot. It's probably neutral EV, you have 45% versus a range of {99+,AhJh}, but it's very good for your image. Other players will widen your percieved range in other hands. This is very important for getting paid on your big hands (like in Hand 1) in the modern game IMO.
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Old 04-01-15, 19:35   #16
Hectorjelly
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Not important at all in a live 1/2 game, and these days getting it in with a combo draw is superstandard, nobody is going to even notice it
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Old 05-01-15, 01:10   #17
Arazi
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I really hate your logic and your reasoning.
Also when people say Get It In they mean Get It In First - there's no better way to play hand 2 than this.
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Old 05-01-15, 01:30   #18
Hectorjelly
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I really hate your logic and your reasoning.
Also when people say Get It In they mean Get It In First - there's no better way to play hand 2 than this.
You are totally wrong, if the assumptions listed above are correct then flatting has a much bigger expectation and a lower variance. I assume I don't need to spell out why!
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Old 05-01-15, 01:41   #19
Arazi
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Yeah don't bother "spelling it out".

Also if you're worried about variance just ask him to run it twice.
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Old 05-01-15, 01:51   #20
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Yeah don't bother "spelling it out".

Also if you're worried about variance just ask him to run it twice.
A call is better than a raise, you're only getting action v better. But I see how you're punter judgement is clouded.
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