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Old 06-11-14, 10:38   #1
Fuzzydunlop
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Small pairs utg/+1/+2 12-15 BB's

Hi folks, bit of an issues Iv been having the last few tournaments I've played. Been getting pretty deep lately but these situations usually cripple me. Should I always be shoving say 22-66 from these positions with 12-15 bigs? I always shove but the last three times been snapped off by a bigger pair or a big ace that hits.Min Raise folding seems terrible, is there an argument for just folding?
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Old 06-11-14, 11:24   #2
dobby
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I usually just fold 22-55 from utg and +1 at any stage of the tourney. In your position I'd be folding all pairs up to 88 and AQ but that's probably on the too nitty side.
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Old 06-11-14, 11:58   #3
Sickpuppy
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Originally Posted by dobman88 View Post
I usually just fold 22-55 from utg and +1 at any stage of the tourney. In your position I'd be folding all pairs up to 88 and AQ but that's probably on the too nitty side.
The op didnt say how many players at the table.
Folding 88 and aq utg +1 for 12 bbs seems terrible imo.
Can add 25% to your stack or get called by worse.
Folding all small pairs utg early in a deep donkey fest would be a mistake.
Sets win big pots sometimes.

Folding is fine utg and utg 1 with your hands.
If you had TT or jacks and were beaten every time would you fold them?
Id sooner shove any two cards from the button small blind if it gets folded to me with 12-15 bbs then shove the smallest pairs in your position.
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Old 06-11-14, 13:02   #4
Fuzzydunlop
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Thanks for the responses, would be a 9 handed table.
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Old 06-11-14, 13:48   #5
dobby
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Originally Posted by Fuzzydunlop View Post
Thanks for the responses, would be a 9 handed table.
I had assumed it was 9 handed. I'd agree with Sickpuppy that I'd rather fold now and shove almost any two if it's folded to me in SB, BTN or CO.

Maybe my range is too nitty folding 88 and AQ utg +1/2 but that's just me I suppose.
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Old 06-11-14, 13:56   #6
chips1234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzydunlop View Post
Hi folks, bit of an issues Iv been having the last few tournaments I've played. Been getting pretty deep lately but these situations usually cripple me. Should I always be shoving say 22-66 from these positions with 12-15 bigs? I always shove but the last three times been snapped off by a bigger pair or a big ace that hits.Min Raise folding seems terrible, is there an argument for just folding?
why do you think raise/folding is terrible ? you left out so many factors in your OP that you'd consider, is it online/live ? is the table tight/passive loose/aggro, stack sizes,stats alot more info is needed, but i will say the whole consensus that all you can do with a 12-15bb(even10-15bbs) stack is push fold is wrong and out dated.
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Old 06-11-14, 18:20   #7
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but i will say the whole consensus that all you can do with a 12-15bb(even10-15bbs) stack is push fold is wrong and out dated.
Really? Ah balls, took me a while to accept this and now I quite like it because it takes the thinking out of the hands
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Old 06-11-14, 19:31   #8
EVinfiinity
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Originally Posted by Fuzzydunlop View Post
Hi folks, bit of an issues Iv been having the last few tournaments I've played. Been getting pretty deep lately but these situations usually cripple me. Should I always be shoving say 22-66 from these positions with 12-15 bigs? I always shove but the last three times been snapped off by a bigger pair or a big ace that hits.Min Raise folding seems terrible, is there an argument for just folding?
From some guesstimates(this is for 12bb with pocket 55s in utg), giving utg+1 - button a calling range of 88s, aq+, and the sb and bb a calling range 77s, aj+(obviously pure assumptions assume there's some players who'll call fairly wider), we are getting called 1-(.9442)^6 (.9276)^2 = roughly 39% of the time.

So 61% of the time we gain lets say 2.5bb, 39% of the time we are called and have an average equity of about 35%. So (.39)(.35) we gain (estimated) 14bb and (.39)(.65) we lose 12bb.

So .61(2.5) + (.39)(.35)(14) - (.39)(.65)(12) = 1.525 + 1.911 - 3.042 = +.394(BB)

So this basically shows no profit and i assumed the table has really tight ranges and didn't take into account the fact that eg. given utg+1 folds its slightly more likely that the rest of the players have a calling hand etc. So in reality this is a marginally losing play. Shoving from utg+1 is probably break even and then MP definitely shows some profit and gets even more profitable the later you act.

So it's a fold for me, though i'm shoving from MP with this range in most situations.
(And apologies if theres any mistakes in calcs)

Last edited by EVinfiinity; 06-11-14 at 23:47. Reason: typo
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Old 06-11-14, 23:56   #9
EVinfiinity
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Originally Posted by chips1234 View Post
why do you think raise/folding is terrible ? you left out so many factors in your OP that you'd consider, is it online/live ? is the table tight/passive loose/aggro, stack sizes,stats alot more info is needed, but i will say the whole consensus that all you can do with a 12-15bb(even10-15bbs) stack is push fold is wrong and out dated.
Can you explain this please? Just wondering what else would work in regards to playing with a 10bb stack.

Last edited by EVinfiinity; 07-11-14 at 17:54. Reason: -
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