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Old 02-11-14, 11:50   #1
8611
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Range?

Hand from yesterday's superstack game (165 euro, 30k chips 30 min blinds)

Blinds 400 / 800

Stack and bet sizes are approximate and how I remember them

I'm playing 65k, average stack is about 33k. I've been very active but the deck has absolutely hit me in the face and I've shown monsters left right and centre.

Villain playing 47k. Can't really remember how he got his stack. I remember thinking he was slightly too active and was hoping to get in a hand with him but his bet sizing was ok so I'd no particular read beyond thinking he'd pay me off. I was involved in one hand with him before when he 3 bet me and I gave up to his CB on a raggy flop.

Villain (47k) UTG +2 raises to 2000

LP tight player calls

Hero (65k) SB raises to 5100. I have 3bet OOP twice before and shown big hands each time.

Villain calls, tight LP player fold

Flop (12,200) : Ac Jc 10c

I check villain leads for 6k I call relatively quickly

Turn (24,000) : is a red 6. I check, villain goes all in pretty quickly for 35k

What is his range and what am I calling with?
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Old 02-11-14, 15:44   #2
colm_leche
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I am guessing the villain's range is heavliy weighted to AK/AQ with a club, then sets, or floped str8 or flush.

I think calling with two purr is marginal and don't think anyone is bluffing very often here.
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Old 02-11-14, 18:42   #3
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Hate the raise size pre, you are forcing them to call you.
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Old 02-11-14, 20:00   #4
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To be honest I'm not sure of sizing or blinds. It may have been 5700 or 5900. I remember from afterwards that villain was always raising about 2 blinds plus a few hundred.

Anyway I'm not too worried about them calling, haven't said my holding here but I want money in the pot. Plus I'm happy to play it this way as it will be hard for villain to make a marginal call with LP still to act and I'm happy to play more or less any pot against LP as he can be played perfectly against post flop. 3 way I would probably have led every flop heavily because of that dynamic. Of course he then manages to fold here....
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Old 02-11-14, 20:20   #5
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Villain looks like he's trying to protect his hand. I'd say something like AT,AJ,JT, KQ no club most likely. You look like you have KKc or QQc maybe AK or AQ with or without a club. If you have a one pair hand with Kc I dont think you can call turn as its so much more unlikely he's semi-bluffing. Although oop if i had a pair a gutshot and a nfd in a 3bet pot <60bbs deep he'd probably be the one making the decision whether to call or not
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Old 03-11-14, 03:27   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8611 View Post
To be honest I'm not sure of sizing or blinds. It may have been 5700 or 5900. I remember from afterwards that villain was always raising about 2 blinds plus a few hundred.

Anyway I'm not too worried about them calling, haven't said my holding here but I want money in the pot. Plus I'm happy to play it this way as it will be hard for villain to make a marginal call with LP still to act and I'm happy to play more or less any pot against LP as he can be played perfectly against post flop. 3 way I would probably have led every flop heavily because of that dynamic. Of course he then manages to fold here....
Its fundamentally bad, your 3bet sizes should be roughly consistent and you don't want to offer the other players very good odds, especially when out of position. Its not a good idea to aim to always get called when you 3bet, in the hand itself you ended up playing a bloated pot out of position with a weird stack to pot ratio.

5100 is way too small. You are basically min raising the opener even though the pot is now 3 ways.
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Old 03-11-14, 12:12   #7
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Flop call is pretty brutal unless you are holding Kc.
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Old 03-11-14, 13:01   #8
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Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
Its fundamentally bad,
I think it may have been 5700, looking at those numbers it looks a bit light but I generally would raise slightly less than three times the bet.

Assuming my note of the blinds and his raise is correct above how much would you suggest?

I think everything I thought and should have thought about the hand is otherwise summed up by Bob's post.

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Villain looks like he's trying to protect his hand.
This is the main thing I missed in the hand

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If you have a one pair hand with Kc I dont think you can call turn as its so much more unlikely he's semi-bluffing.
On reflection this is a second thing I missed, good point

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Although oop if i had a pair a gutshot and a nfd in a 3bet pot <60bbs deep he'd probably be the one making the decision whether to call or not
This is what made me call, as in I thought his shove looked too much like one pair with a draw

Ok, I had AK with the K of clubs. I should really have folded because he should turn up with a range similar to that put out by Bob - A10 or AJ, 1010 (I think this villain actually 4bets with JJ). It now looks like he's put me on a big ace and will call it all.

But I levelled myself into a call thinking he may do this with any pair with one club or a pair and a gut shot, ranges I'm obviously crushing, or else he just thinks its a scarey enough flop that I'll just let go. I just thought, if he has a value hand he wouldn't push.

He turned over 69 clubs for the flopped flush of course .

Given my call is bad would you have shoved his hand on the turn? Would you not have gone for more value?
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Old 03-11-14, 13:32   #9
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I'd make it 7100 pre
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Old 03-11-14, 13:44   #10
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I'd make it roughly pot sized, at least 8k, maybe 9 or so. You can then bet fold/call almost any flop hu for around 12k, or shove/check shove/check fold 3 ways.

After the flop I don't understand why you would check call twice, what is your thinking? If you are checking to induce bluffs then its a insta call on the turn, but this isn't a board where most people will fire multiple bluffs. Out of position calling because you have the Kc in your hands isn't great, the pot is way too big to be taking cards off. Your draws whilst powerful are incredibly visible. When you consider check calling the flop you should think what is going to happen on the turn, the pot is so big the other guy is often going to shove or make a pot committing bet.

I can't see any good reason not to get the chips in on the flop, its the best way of getting the money in pretty good, the villain may call with a pair and fd, and you are in good shape against everything with two cards to come. You are a favourite against the range Bob posited on the flop. You have such a strong hand I don't think I would ever consider folding it unless much deeper.

http://www.propokertools.com/simulat...%2Ac&s=generic

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
67,320 trials (Exhaustive)
board: A:club: J:club: Q:club:
Ad Kc 51.73% (34,614 wins, 417 ties)
AT, AJ, AQ, TJ, *c*c 48.27% (32,289 wins, 417 ties)

Thats a pretty worst case scenario really (although I don't understand why JT is there) and you are a favourite.

A more likely range. Any big ace, any ace with a club any two clubs and any hand containing the Tc

http://www.propokertools.com/simulat...c%2A&s=generic

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
112,860 trials (Exhaustive)
board: A:club: J:club: Q:club:
Ad Kc 64.75% (70,548 wins, 5,055 ties)
AK, AQ, AJ, AT, A*c,*c*c,Tc* 35.25% (37,257 wins, 5,055 ties)

Last edited by Hectorjelly; 03-11-14 at 13:46.
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Old 03-11-14, 13:48   #11
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The villains bet sizing isn't perfect but I think his play is much better than checking. I would never expect anyone to fold your hand on the turn, and he runs the risk of a bad river card killing his action. Its a big pot and worth protecting.
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Old 03-11-14, 14:31   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flushdraw View Post
I'd make it 7100 pre
Yeah but you're burning cash these days though

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Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
I'd make it roughly pot sized, at least 8k, maybe 9 or so. You can then bet fold/call almost any flop hu for around 12k, or shove/check shove/check fold 3 ways.
I just think that's a lot of chips to be committing at an early stage of a tournament when you have an edge against the average player in it. You're talking about committing 2/3 of a starting stack (20k) by the time of your CB alone, on any given flop, with no pair? I think you can get to the same spot for about 11 - 12k betting less.

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After the flop I don't understand why you would check call twice, what is your thinking?
My thinking his bet is simply a stab at a pot, nothing more, call and re-evaluate and keep bluffs and weaker hands in his range. I have no real problem looking to get it in on the flop either, save in so far as I think I'm narrowing his range to a lot of hands which I'm not in great shape against.

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Your draws whilst powerful are incredibly visible. When you consider check calling the flop you should think what is going to happen on the turn, the pot is so big the other guy is often going to shove or make a pot committing bet.
I hadn't thought of that to be honest. I would say that both draws I have will result in 4 to the given hand, which opponents will often take as bluffable boards. Moveover, with the flush in particular, he might hold the second or third nuts.

Thanks for taking the time to put in the ranges - you've misread the flop though, J10 is in there as a two pair hand. Its less likely to call pre though. I think AJ and A10 are real contenders and why, I believe, I should have let it go on the turn, as played.

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The villains bet sizing isn't perfect but I think his play is much better than checking. I would never expect anyone to fold your hand on the turn, and he runs the risk of a bad river card killing his action. Its a big pot and worth protecting.
As played you don't fold the turn? I think its pretty bad going broke with one pair and one card to a draw, however about how I got there.
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Old 03-11-14, 17:25   #13
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I just think that's a lot of chips to be committing at an early stage of a tournament when you have an edge against the average player in it. You're talking about committing 2/3 of a starting stack (20k) by the time of your CB alone, on any given flop, with no pair? I think you can get to the same spot for about 11 - 12k betting less.
The starting stack is completely irrelevant. You are three betting with effective stacks of 50bbs, if your not comfortable putting in a lot of chips without a hand just call pre. Don't worry about your edge in a tournament, its a bad way to think.

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My thinking his bet is simply a stab at a pot, nothing more, call and re-evaluate and keep bluffs and weaker hands in his range. I have no real problem looking to get it in on the flop either, save in so far as I think I'm narrowing his range to a lot of hands which I'm not in great shape against.
Thats not really a well thought out strategy or read. His bet may be a stab at the pot, but you have no good reason to suspect that. Check raising the flop all in is good as you get him to put chips in bluffing. Check calling to reevaluate on the turn is not good for a number of reasons, the pot is way too big. On the flop you are in good shape against any range.

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I hadn't thought of that to be honest. I would say that both draws I have will result in 4 to the given hand, which opponents will often take as bluffable boards. Moveover, with the flush in particular, he might hold the second or third nuts.
Are you going to check if you make the flush/straight? Are you going to value bet them? Out of position there is no reason to think you are going to be able to play the later streets well even if you hit. You don't have any idea of what your opponent has and no idea of his bluffing tendencies. He will check back all 2 pair/set hands if you make a flush/straight, and if you lead he is going to fold unless he happens to have a high club. If he has a high club he will likely get it in on the flop anyway.

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Thanks for taking the time to put in the ranges - you've misread the flop though, J10 is in there as a two pair hand. Its less likely to call pre though. I think AJ and A10 are real contenders and why, I believe, I should have let it go on the turn, as played.

As played you don't fold the turn? I think its pretty bad going broke with one pair and one card to a draw, however about how I got there.
Ah yes sorry. It doesn't make much difference though (bar JT being 2 pair)

When the flop came up I would never choose a line that ends up with me folding, (unless much deeper). You have one card to two nut draws and a pair, which not going broke with is criminal. As played I think I make a crying call, I'm not convinced his range is as tight as you guys evidently do, if you don't have the best hand you will always have the best draw, and sometimes you will have both. Even on the turn when behind you will still have a lot of equity. You have about 25% equity against a set, about 15% vs a flush, and I wouldn't expect him to shove a flush on the turn. I wouldn't rule it out but I think a set would be more likely of his value hands. The way you played the hand, tiny 3bet, check call flop and check turn there is almost no way to put him on a range I'd be putting much stock in. As someone mentioned earlier your hand looks a bit like QQ or KK, so I wouldn't be that surprised to see a random ace or bluff.

Last edited by Hectorjelly; 03-11-14 at 17:30.
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Old 03-11-14, 23:11   #14
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Although oop if i had a pair a gutshot and a nfd in a 3bet pot <60bbs deep he'd probably be the one making the decision whether to call or not
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This is what made me call, as in I thought his shove looked too much like one pair with a draw
Not sure if you get what i suggested here. I'm saying with your hand you should be doing the betting/raising and making him decide whether he wants to call or not. As HJ says try to get it in on the flop where you have lots of equity whether its b/r or c/r. As he also says your draws are in plain sight so if you hit them its hard to get any value - especially oop.

Not sure about pf sizing - whether Flushdraw or HJ are nearer the mark. Tournament sizings freak me out. 5100 def too small though
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Old 04-11-14, 06:30   #15
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Very interesting hand anyway, lots to discuss. What was the river? How did you do get on in the tournament?
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Old 04-11-14, 07:24   #16
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Not sure if you get what i suggested here.
I do, what I meant was I thought he was doing something similar, ie pushing with a pair and a draw, which allowed me to make the call I wasn't inclined to otherwise (the way I played the hand).

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Very interesting hand anyway, lots to discuss. What was the river? How did you do get on in the tournament?
River brick, there was still a rebuy available which swung the call for me so I could just bust or double up my remaining stack, no real joy thereafter.

Villain played other hands similarly later, over pushing big flops. You often see lads doing this in low buy in tournaments, they basically turn their big hands face up. This makes me more inclined to play "small ball" rather than chasing big draws as you can play perfectly against them (albeit winning a lot less chips in the long run by not taking your approach).
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